What Powder?

[NickSS]

I load for a variety of hand gun cartridges from 32ACP to 45 colt and have been using Red Dot and Unique in them for the past 30 years. Well my supply of powder is dwindling and I have been thinking about laying in a new supply. However, the powders I have been using produce a dirty bore that takes time to clean up. I know that lots of new powders have hit the market but I have not tried any of them. I would like some recomendations concerning a clean buring powder that can give me loads from target plinking loads to semi hot loads.

[AlaskaMike]

Most of the fouling in my revolvers comes from bullet lube, not powder residue. That said, after having used Alliant's Power Pistol, I won't be buying any more Unique. For something to replace Red Dot, Hodgdon's Clays might be a good one. I like it for light .45 ACP and .38 special.

Mike

[Bob Jones]

I'm another fan of Power Pistol. You can load fairly light to almost max loads with it, pretty clean and bulky enough the chances of double charging are small. I use it in 9mm, 40, 357 and 45, it's pretty flexible. Most of my .45s are plain Clays, about 4 grains, very clean, nice practice load with a 230 grain cast bullet and cheap.

[35remington]

Be advised that the downside of Power Pistol is that it's pretty blasty.

It's fine otherwise. It's really intended for medium to full loads; light load pressures are not the intended use of Power Pistol. This is why Alliant does not list it for shotshell use. If you want loads in the 10,000 psi range go with something faster.

Really, I am surprised at your statement that Red Dot and Unique produce "a dirty bore that takes time to clean up." I use both of those powders; one swab with a solvent laden patch and it's gone. No scrubbing or extended cleanup needed. Could it be that you are mistaking leading for powder fouling? I wouldn't think so, but I had to ask. I can't recall a single time I thought the fouling from those two powders was hard to get out with any solvent that was handy. I use them in handgun, shotgun and rifle in a wide variety of calibers.

If you are a fellow that cleans your gun with any degree of regularity a "cleaner" burning powder will save you no time whatsoever.

Clays is a very good light load powder for many cartridges, but be advised it's really not capable of duplicating standard velocities in most of them. Thus, if most of your practice is reduced loads I'd recommend it; if you want to duplicate standard velocities or a bit more you should be using something else. A plus is that it gets good velocities with light charges, but then, so does Red Dot, which is usually capable of somewhat higher velocities than Clays, to the point of being able to duplicate standard loads.

If you are looking to maximize your load versatility with the fewest possible powders for handguns, you are not doing too bad with the powder choices you have.

[Ghugly]

I went from Bullseye to Trail Boss for my .44 special plinking loads and like it a lot. It may not be what you're looking for for a versitile powder, but it sure is clean.

[Lloyd Smale]

your not going to find a majic powder that eliminates barrel fouling. At least not shooting cast bullets. I have to say ive never seen where powder fouling in a barrel ever got so bad that it effected accuracy or hurt a darned thing. Its a rare occurance that i actually clean a barrel and when i do its usually just running a wet patch followed by a dry patch if i know the gun is going to be put away for a long time. Ive got handgun barrels that have many thousands of rounds of bullseye and unique in them that havent seen a cleaning. When im done shooting i wipe off and oil my guns. If the chambers are dirty enough to effect loading or unloading they get cleaned but rarely a barrel. My consern with powders is how well they put tiny holes in the target not if they keep my gun looking pretty and bullseye and unique are a couple of the best powders at doing just that.

[Cayoot]

+1 on Lloyds response!

[Dale53]

Lloyd;
Boy, are you a man after my own heart. I seldom clean my revolvers (other than chambers that have had "short" cases fired in them - .44 Special in Magnum chambers, .38 Special in .357, etc). Of course, I wipe the exterior every time I use them.

Had a good friend stay over for an extended visit. He was appalled at my revolvers. He is a cleanliness addict. Since my revolvers don't lead, I figger that bullet lube is a good barrel preservative - it has been proven over the years to keep my barrels in good shape.

There are certainly those that disagree but I have found NO loss of accuracy with a "dirty" barrel, either.

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

It's sad to report that there have been no miracle powders to date that burn clean in every cartridge out there under any and all pressure levels.

If I had 30 years of experience with something, I must have seen something that I liked. 30 years of experience would be invaluable. When I think about it, the only thing I have stayed with that long is Old Spice!

You can bet your (whatever) that based on that alone, I would buy Red Dot and Unique again.

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to Bass, Dale, Lloyd, and Cayoot (as usual), this time on the barrel fouling issue. Maybe I'm just not real sensitive to the matter. Bullseye and Unique have been long-time companions on the loading bench and afield, I don't see a need to look elsewhere--although WW-231 sees a lot more use than Bullseye these days in that performance spectrum. Other newer powders seem to do good work, but I haven't pursued the question very much.

[AlaskaMike]

Guys, slow down a bit--he's not asking for some magic powder that will eliminate the need to clean a gun. It simply looks to me like he's been using the same powders for quite awhile and is curious about newer stuff.

Lately there's been a lot of criticism and even some outright sarcasm and ridicule directed at those who post questions about newer, cleaner powders. Some of it even coming from guys who I would have expected better from. This thread hasn't devolved to that point yet, but let's head it off before it gets there please.

Mike

[leftiye]

I asked this same question once, and got the same answers. There are powders that burn real clean, but I honestly can't think of any (got to buy new powders?) right now. More often, there are powders that will burn clean if you get the pressure right with good ignition. Using a lube with carnauba wax will do wonders in keeping a clean, shiny barrel. I use Lar's C-Red. Even makes 4227 seem clean!

[NickSS]

Thanks the input and the info on power pistol. That is one powder that I have been looking at and Win 231 is another. You are right though concerning red dot and Unique. I have used them for years for light to medium fast loads in both hand guns and rifles with good accuracy. I am running out of my last 8 pound barrels of both and was curious to see what was better. I may try a pound of 231 and power pistol to see how I like it. Recently I bought a pound of Blue Dot to load +P 9mm loads with 124 gr gold dot bullets to equal the results of NYC +P duty loads they buy. This was for my nephew who is a NYC cop. I found that 10.3 gr with a Speer 124 gr Gold dot bullet gives me 1208 fps in my Browning High Power which matches fairly close to the 1205 fps of the factory load. So I like to try new things.

[BD]

Lately I've been cleaning my handguns once a week or so. The problem is that the stinkin' indoor range, which is my only real option for practice, won't let me use cast boolits. And, I can't bring myself to use the $$ plated bullets when I can avoid it, which lately is at the matches which are outdoors. Shooting lead over the plated fouling does build up crud in the corners of the lands.

To my mind the powder "cleaness" issue is more in the case of the auto loaders. The sootier the powder the sooner I start to feel it it the trigger. Shooting Titegroup I could go a year between detail stripping a 1911. Using the surplus 231 I start to feel it every 5,000 rounds or so. IMHO the major gunk is more due to the lube and lube groove design than the powder used. Using good cast boolit designs I rarely "need" to clean a barrel, but I do have to clean the gunk off the barrel bed and out of the extractor from time to time to keep things working smoothly.
BD

[jtaylor1960]

I have some old Unique I use sometimes, but I Have read the new Unique is cleaner burning.Either way it is still a very useful powder for some applications.

[crowbeaner]

Try some IMR SR 4756. I think you will be surprised and pleased with the results. I've been using the stuff forever, and it works well in many calibers. I use it in the 12 gauge as well. Clean burning, predictable, and easy cleanup. CB.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Nick,
There are several factors involved. I like clean powders, but cleanliness is not a huge factor in my selection process. My primary criteria is a powder that is broadly applicable and gives decent to better results across that broad spectrum of application.

Unique is a good example of an older powder that does that. In fact, it still does it better than 95% of powders on the market. I have some buddies who swear by Hodgdon's Universal Clays, which is supposed to be a cleaner-burning nearly-identical competitor to Unique. Also, Alliant recently (yes, 5 or so years ago is recent in my mind...) re-formulated Unique to make it cleaner-burning. If you like and are used to Unique, and your supply that is dwindling is from more than 5 years ago, I'd give the new version a try. If that doesn't fit your favor, try Universal Clays.

Another criteria I use is expense. I've burned a LOT of W231 and still have many pounds of it. It is my primary handgun powder, loading it in 380, 9mm, 38Spl., 44 Russian and 45ACP for plinking and full loads, and 357 Mag. and 10mm for light to medium loads, and 44 Magnum for light loads, so the versatility is there. On top of that, W231 used to be relatively cheap, but here lately (since Hodgdon took over Winchester powder's distribution/sales), it seems to be priced more like a mid-to-premium powder. Hopefully that will change by the time I run out...

Before W231 I used Red Dot as my fast powder, and I REALLY liked that I could also load shotgun with that powder. (Something that W231 is not suitable for...) If W231 stays expensive, I may switch back to a shotgun powder. I'm looking hard at Promo (since it's so cheap), which is a sooty-dirty version of Red Dot. (I'll "pay" in cleaning to get that much cheaper powder...) It runs around $10/lb in the 8-lb kegs, which is cheaper than just about any other powder out there. I also really like Green Dot in shotgun loads (patterns great), and way back in the past I've loaded a little pistol with it (45ACP) with satisfactory results. (Groups with H&G 68 200gr were outstanding.)

Another brand of powders I think deserve a hard look into is Ramshot. I've just started trying them, and have tried three of them so far. They've been great.

As far as cleanliness, I will disagree with the guys above. There is one brand of powder that is extra-ordinarily clean, even with cast lead bullets. I've shot quite a bit of it, because I had a special "in" with the importer when it was first brought to the US in the early 90s. The only problem with it, is that it is way too expensive for my tastes. It is great powder as far as lot-to-lot consistency and cleanliness, but when it's 15% more expensive, I can't justify using it merely for those two reasons, when I'm looking for a bulk-deal. (I think Alliant does a great job of lot-to-lot consistency since they opened their new powder plant 10 years ago, so why pay so much more?)

[rr4406pak]

So MakeMineA10mm,
Which powder is it that you say is "extra-ordinarily clean, even with cast lead bullets"???

[Ricochet]

When I finally burn up the bunch of Nitro 100, Unique, #102 and #5 I have, what I'll do is buy Promo if it's still available as relatively cheap as it is now. That'd cover all of my pistol shooting except the heavy .44 Magnum loads. I don't give a rat whether it's "clean burning" or not.

[Lloyd Smale]

like i said im kind of old school when it comes to my powders but if a guy really wanted a clean powder that seems to shoot real well that covers alot of bases power pistol is hard to beat.

[Newtire]

So MakeMineA10mm,
Which powder is it that you say is "extra-ordinarily clean, even with cast lead bullets"???

I have a sneaking suspicion he's talking about the vhita vourhi or however you spell it. I have never used it but my richer brother in law does and some other people I know. They say it's the cleanest burning. Only problem I have ever had with powder not being "clean" is when it leaves lots of kernels that dent the cases. We had this discussion before and it seems alot of folks found that some powders burn cleaner at higher pressures. I have no problems in those regards with the new Unique (or the old for that matter).

[Jon K]

Experiment, Experiment, Experiment.......each gun, boolit, lube, powder combination will be different. The gun will tell you which one it likes, and you will see which one you like , for whatever reason, and so that will be the best one for you.
Load development....that's half the fun of this whole thing. Otherwise we would all be shooting the same thing with the same gun, and the same accuracy.

Jon

[IcerUSA]

Just a bit of info if you shoot in the cold, I found that Power Pistol is temp sensitive, if the temp gets down to freezing it don't like to ignite well, switched to Titegroup and have had no problems in my 1911's and an old Firestar 9mm so far. For what its worth as it's just my $.02, minus taxes, inflation, and ?????

Keith

[robertbank]

Ummmm. You gonna shoot lead boolits with lube then you better buy yourself some Hoppes #9 and be prepared to clean your guns. In shooting my 1911's and other autos in 9MM I have tried all kinds of powders but only a couple of lubes. Build up of gunk on the ramps is there no matter the powder. My revolvers collect the same gunk around the cylinders no matter the powder. Conclusion it;s the lube that produces the majority of the gunk not the powder.

Last month I shot a ton of IVI 9MM in my Tanfoglio without cleaning it over a period of two weeks. All FMJ rounds. By the 2nd week you could watch the slide cycle the gun was so dirty. Conclusion, the powder produces the gunk. If you want to shoot FMJ bullets in your gun you have to clean it so back to Hoppes #9.

Take Care

Bob

ps My mother raised an idiot.:(

[GP100man]

the job falls to clays or titegroup &700x , full power loads fall to h110 & 800x,herco.
just remember the higher the pressures the better most powders will burn.
& the clays & titegroup are position insensitive also.

GP100man

:cbpour: