500 Jeffery

[MBTcustom]

I want to talk to a smith who has built rifles in this caliber.
Any takers?

[Whiterabbit]

nope, but very interested! This was on my 2-cartridge short-short list to own too. ended up settling for 500A2 (wells express actually) after much hand wringing due to the lower cost of plinker brass. I love the big bore safari type rifles.

[MBTcustom]

I got in touch with Dwayn Wiebe, Harry Shelby, Wayne Jacobson, Blain Huling, and Repio Beuler (I think I said that right) First class riflemen every one. They gave me much insight on this cartridge, and how to build for it.
In my estimation, this would be a first class castboolit cartridge, cost of brass notwithstanding.

[Whiterabbit]

how do you figure that? the case capacity is huge, and typically folks say large case capacity cartridges aren't so great for cast bullets.

Honest question, and looking forward to an honest answer.

[MBTcustom]

Well, I figure that top speed on this rifle is 2400fps. It's like a giant 30-30.
I think that case size is a relative thing in regards to cast lead. For instance the 300winmag has more case capacity than could ever be used efficiently with cast lead boolits. There's almost no way to fill the case without getting into speeds that the boolit can't handle.
This cartridge on the other hand, has even more case capacity than the 300 winmag, but it's shooting a monstrous 600 grain projectile with about 100 grains of IMR3031 (that is a rough estimate from memory. Don't anybody use that load!)
There is so little known about this cartridge, I will have to load it a few times to really appreciate it's pros and cons, but from everything I'm reading, It sounds pretty righteous.

[Nobade]

What action are you going to use? It would seem the CZ magnum would be the easiest, but a P17 could be made to work as well. Or one of those Granite Mountain Arms magnums if you have the dough.

Twist rate is something to consider also. Most people use very fast twist barrels for DG rifles but if you mainly want to shoot cast out of it you might consider a slower one. Keep us posted, I don't get to play with rifles like this often but am always interested in hearing about them!

-Nobade

[HangFireW8]

Consider that the Brits used a left hand twist barrel on many big bores, to let the rotational moment turn the stock away from the shooters cheek, not into it.

[nekshot]

OUUUCH, I don't care for recoil any more. I would love to watch you all work up load development lets say at one setting!!!!

[MBTcustom]

I am building for a client. I will take a video of me shooting these: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/734161/kynoch-ammunition-500-jeffery-535-grain-woodleigh-weldcore-solid-box-of-5
And if the results are good, I will consider posting it. Right now, there are still many things to be done.

[338RemUltraMag]

how do you figure that? the case capacity is huge, and typically folks say large case capacity cartridges aren't so great for cast bullets.

Honest question, and looking forward to an honest answer.

Here is my 416 Rigby with 450 gr pills, 50 yds open sights I would have to say that the case capacity to bore size is the kicker to your statement. This Rigby shoots cast with 110 gr of Retumbo behind it.

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130709_145704.jpg
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130618_131436.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

And you are shooting those PLAIN BASE? OK, that does it. This savage has to go to get me a 416 rig CZ to build my 510 from. "The internet" told me 416 rigby wasn't a good cast cartridge. Your pictures disagree with that strongly!

[338RemUltraMag]

Not plane base but I make my own checks! LOL Here it is beside a 160 gr 6.5 boolit. Ans I will show a pic of expansion from the 100 yd berm:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130604_090810.jpg
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130709_204719.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

you think 8700 would be a workable powder for 416 rig or 510 wells OR 500 Jeff (gotta keep it on topic, yes? :)) with cast bullets like you've got there? that makes it compelling to use milsurp powders.

[338RemUltraMag]

I think so, I am going to try the Milsurp 50 BMG powder, it will have a softer launch and should provide the ability to use a softer boolit.

[338RemUltraMag]

Here is my CZ 550 Magnum:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130123_104157.jpg

[BruceB]

"The internet" told me 416 rigby wasn't a good cast cartridge. !

Ah yes, the ever-lovin', AUTHORITATIVE Internet.

I've made a few posts right here on CB about shooting the .416 Rigby with cast bullets. My rifle is a Ruger #1 and the bullet is the garden-variety RCBS 416-350. Did you search this site, instead of the ^*&$%^& Internet?

Really, I see no "need" for the monster 450 -grain load on this thread for 99% of North American shooting. Fascinating project, though.

My Ruger happily delivers TEN-shot groups of 1" or LESS at 100 yards with a muzzle speed of 2050 fps. What more could I ask?

PHOOEY (again) to "Internet wisdom".

[MBTcustom]

Ah yes, the ever-lovin', AUTHORITATIVE Internet.

I've made a few posts right here on CB about shooting the .416 Rigby with cast bullets. My rifle is a Ruger #1 and the bullet is the garden-variety RCBS 416-350. Did you search this site, instead of the ^*&$%^& Internet?

Really, I see no "need" for the monster 450 -grain load on this thread for 99% of North American shooting. Fascinating project, though.

My Ruger happily delivers TEN-shot groups of 1" or LESS at 100 yards with a muzzle speed of 2050 fps. What more could I ask?

PHOOEY (again) to "Internet wisdom".

Indeed!
That is exactly why I was wanting to talk to some real smiths with real experience about the 500 Jeff.
I got exactly what I was after, and the information I received from these men gave me a devious smile.

I don't want to post any details as of yet, but rest assured, that when it comes to "internet wisdom" the good information that is absent, is as dangerous and misleading as the bad information that is present.
It is very important to know how to get good information that is solid, and when we're talking about gunsmithing, there is no substitute for a profesional smith, who has actually done what he is giving advice about. I find that if the guy hasn't done it, then you never know what you are going to hear. Some of it may be right, or wrong, or absent, but it's not trustworthy at all.
I have enormous respect for the gentlemen listed above who told me what they knew for a fact to be true, but stopped short of blowing smoke and told me who I need to talk to to take the conversation further. That is diamond studded excellence of character right there, and gives me great confidence that what I was told was the real deal.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim: I think the gun needs to be in the 11-12 lb range?

As far as shooting light CB loads it seems like some Dacron Filler might make things work good. I see no reason why the larger case capacity would be a problem if loading cast down to say .45-70 velocities, as long as you take up the slack with some kind of filler to keep the powder in the back of the case.

I'd just bet Trailboss would work for reduced loads in that cartridge too.

What kind of gun is this going to be ? single shot, bolt gun, double built from shotgun action ?

I live very close to Larry Amrine. He is noted for building high end large caliber rifles almost exclusively for Safari Club prizes and others who can fork over $25-50K for a gun. He does .500 Jeff frequently.

It will be a great project, I hope it shoots well when done.

Randy

[MBTcustom]

It's a bolt gun. I'll look up Larry Amrine. Thanks for the info!

[338RemUltraMag]

Ah yes, the ever-lovin', AUTHORITATIVE Internet.

I've made a few posts right here on CB about shooting the .416 Rigby with cast bullets. My rifle is a Ruger #1 and the bullet is the garden-variety RCBS 416-350. Did you search this site, instead of the ^*&$%^& Internet?

Really, I see no "need" for the monster 450 -grain load on this thread for 99% of North American shooting. Fascinating project, though.

My Ruger happily delivers TEN-shot groups of 1" or LESS at 100 yards with a muzzle speed of 2050 fps. What more could I ask?

PHOOEY (again) to "Internet wisdom".

Coulda had a 45-70 if that is all ya wanted, as a 400 yd cast boolit elk rifle it makes plenty of sense.

[Whiterabbit]

Here is my CZ 550 Magnum:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130123_104157.jpg

gorgeous. What's the max mag length on that guy?

[frank505]

I shoot 130 grains of WC 860 with a 600 grain gas check in my 505 Gibbs. Very close to a case full of cheap powder. Nice load, accurate and kills very well.

[338RemUltraMag]

I cant remember mag length but here is a pic of one in the box:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130611_140235.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

awesome. Looks like 3.9".

[MBTcustom]

Licking pencil, flipping notepad....

[Duckiller]

Why? I thought all mastadons ,rhinos and other really nasty game had left Arkansas. I know there are big things that eat and stomp on you in Canada's Northwest territories. That is why Bruce has his large caliber guns. For most of North America I just need something to stop lions, tigers and bears.

[Whiterabbit]

for the same reason you NEED a 10 round magazine.

[338RemUltraMag]

for the same reason you NEED a 10 round magazine.

Perfect answer

[Blue2]

Another caliber to think about. I am already to build a 50/338 Lapua Magnum. Or a 50/416 Rigby if you prefer to call it that. I got started in this direction after seeing the 50 cal built on the 460 Weatherby cartridge. Looked into it and this is a feasible build. I am not the first guy to do it. Lots of brass and the rifles that run the 338 Lapua are readily available. I have a 650 grain gas check mold using Hornady gas checks and a Lothar Walther barrel. The reamer is now on hand and I just have to decide on the action. I am thinking a light varmint contour and probably go with a Remington long action on a H.S. Precision stock. If I like it and want a sporter profile I would use the CZ550 Magnum action rifle.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm curious if 460 Weatherby is cheaper brass than 338 lapua or 416 rigby? Reason being is there is also the 495 A-square which the internet (I know, I know the internet is ALWAYS right) tells me makes a really good cast bullet cartridge. But I'm not sure I see the advantage compared to using the 338 case assuming the case capacity is similar.

I'm actually in the market for a 550. It's hard to find one with good (outstanding) wood for a good price.

[Gray Fox]

There may be some real need for these big bores coming down the pike if that geneticist fellow manages to clone the mastodon or wooly mammoth that he wants to resurrect. Just imagine what the guy who can afford to buy a $50,000 rifle would be willing to pay to hunt one of them. Way above my pay grade of course, but maybe he'd let me go along to take pictures. GF

[lmcollins]

Tim, check on www.realguns.com. Joe shoots a 550 CZ mag in both the 416 Rigby, and the 500 Jeffery in the same model rifle, the CZ 550.

There is a picture of the 416 Rigby out of the stock. Get a load of that lug! There is also a picture of the cartridges with a 30-06. Note the loaded OAL's.

Roy Dunlaps book shows a picture of the 1917 opened up for a magnum. The trick is to take as much as possible out of the REAR of the action. Somewhere I red that after WWI when the true magnum Mauser actions were not available the Brits made the big magnums out of 1917/13. Butch Lambert showed a picture of his 416 made on a 1917 action on the 24hourcampfire.

I have also red of taking two 98's and cutting them apart to make a very long 98 by welding them together. I would think it easier to fill the thumb slot while things were apart. Supposedy mag boxes must be heavy in the front to prevent damage from recoil and heavy cartridges/bullet combos.

We all wait to be amazed by your ingenuity.

Take note all Remington long actiongs have a 3.6 inch mag box. The 700 action and bolt are round, and therfore easy to machine. Wouldn't it be easy to make a 700 LA about and honest 1.6 inches plus inches longer? I'd work from the back side of the action and bolt, near to the bridge.

[Balkandom]

Hey folks,

As the person for whom the rifle is being built, I would like to weigh in. I am not on here often; I lurk more than I talk, but I enjoy my lurking and in the process I have met a few amazing people, Goodsteel being one of them.

A little background on me-I am new to cast bullets, but have been around guns for most of my life. My family is relatively affluent, and I was brought up being exposed to firearms that ranged from very nice to exquisite; everything from shotguns, to target rifles, to big-bore African guns. The masochistic side of me likes the big bores, and the thought of the Jeffrey is very exciting to me, especially when made affordable to shoot with cast bullets! I'm down to 2 big bores, a 375 Weatherby and a 458 Lott, but I have been exposed to much larger in my time.

When I saw Tim's Genesis rifle it made up my mind...Tim has the talent to create what is in my minds' eye, and I won't have to spend the $8-12k it would cost me to get it done elsewhere. He and I have talked extensively on this build, and when finished, it is going to be a work of art. It won't be built on a shoestring budget, and no corners will be cut. I am a complete snob when it comes to European-style rifles (Ask Goodsteel, he has seen some of my collection), especially the safari type, and I have every confidence that he can and will deliver what I want.

It's not going to be done tomorrow or next month, but I can assure you all that when finished, it will be a work of art not often seen on Cast Boolits, or anywhere else.

Stay tuned!

Mike

[MBTcustom]

Thanks for the kind words Mike.
Actually, this thread was originally started so I could find information on another build I was doing. Unfortunately, the client did not agree with my policy of test firing each rifle at least 5 times, and I had to pull the plug on that build, and refund his money.
I hope I can build a rifle for you that is up to your standards.
I believe you have a good grasp of my policy's and my commitment to perfection.
You will have a very special rifle when it's all done.

[timrichardedward]

New member here, but saw your build and wanted to ask some questions.

1. How do you know the action is safe to use for this cartridge? Seems to me this would have some real pressure issues.

2. What is the basis for shooting the rifle 5 times......? Is 5 a magic number? Why not 10 or even maybe 13?

3. Does this cartridge need a custom stock built or could one use the original?

Very interesting build....I might want one some day!

[pkie44]

What kind of finish on the barrel? I want one with that blueish chrome finish.

[Von Gruff]

New member here, but saw your build and wanted to ask some questions.

1. How do you know the action is safe to use for this cartridge? Seems to me this would have some real pressure issues.

2. What is the basis for shooting the rifle 5 times......? Is 5 a magic number? Why not 10 or even maybe 13?

3. Does this cartridge need a custom stock built or could one use the original?

Very interesting build....I might want one some day!

If you are serious about getting a rifle of this calibre built then make sure whoever you approach to do the job understands big bore rifles. Someone who has only worked on 30 and under calibers may not have the knowledge to safely complete this type of project.
Someone who says quote "( never heard of a double recoil lug???)" and then says quote "I'm going to bolster this gun as much as possible by welding on a second recoil lug in the back of the action, and possibly adding a 3/8" Remington 700 style recoil lug up front, with screws going through the outside of the stock and into the lug to try to hold everything together." may not be the smith to approach.
I would ask for credentials from previous customers before undertaking this project.

[MBTcustom]

If you are serious about getting a rifle of this calibre built then make sure whoever you approach to do the job understands big bore rifles. Someone who has only worked on 30 and under calibers may not have the knowledge to safely complete this type of project.
Someone who says quote "( never heard of a double recoil lug???)" and then says quote "I'm going to bolster this gun as much as possible by welding on a second recoil lug in the back of the action, and possibly adding a 3/8" Remington 700 style recoil lug up front, with screws going through the outside of the stock and into the lug to try to hold everything together." may not be the smith to approach.
I would ask for credentials from previous customers before undertaking this project.

I said that. Those were my words over on another forum. Unfortunately, when the gunsmith gods came and blessed certain men with the knowledge of how to build big bore rifles, they skipped me. I have to learn the old fashioned way, and part of learning is making mistakes.
Mike and I are going to see how this goes. We've got extra trigger guards on order (so I can figure out how to modify them) and a barrel is on order (chrome moly so it can be properly blued) along with express sights, and wood is being prospected for.

[MBTcustom]

New member here, but saw your build and wanted to ask some questions.

1. How do you know the action is safe to use for this cartridge? Seems to me this would have some real pressure issues.

2. What is the basis for shooting the rifle 5 times......? Is 5 a magic number? Why not 10 or even maybe 13?

3. Does this cartridge need a custom stock built or could one use the original?

Very interesting build....I might want one some day!

I did manage to get in touch with Dwayn Wiebe and at this point, several other smiths that have built these rifles. They told me how to check them for hardness.

Five shots is a typical group. Nobody respects a 3 shot group, because you might have just gotten lucky. If you can keep five inside an inch at 100yards then that's a respectable group. Also, when you are doing this for a business, each box of ammo contains 20 shots. This allows me to test fire 4 rifles with each box of ammo.
I'll add to this by saying that usually for one reason or another, I end up shooting about ten, but 5 is minimum.

I would not recommend using the original stock, and neither do any of the smiths I have been talking to (except one).
There may be much more experienced smiths that could build one of these rifles with the original stock, but it gives me the heeby jeebys.

I've never built one of these bigbore DG rifles before. This is the first one, and it's quite a bit different than anything I have ever done before. Once it's all done, I'll be able to speak much more intelligently about what it's all about.
Like one of our signature lines says: "It's all an educated guess until you pull the trigger".

[Whiterabbit]

I don't think you ever mentioned what the donor rifle was. It was asked, I don't think it was answered.

Saw the prospective wood in the other thread. I like it.

[MBTcustom]

The donor action is a Mauser 98K. It checks out for hardness, and is clean enough to build a very fine rifle out of. This build is going to take quite a while to complete (heck its going to be several months wait just for a barrel!) But that will give me time to get my feet under me and build it correctly. I'm going to a firearms museum with a very knowledgeable friend of mine, and I will be taking a very close look at the DG rifles and taking pictures if they will allow me to (probably not).

[Love Life]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Give it hell Tim.

[Whiterabbit]

who's making the barrel? do they all have a several month backlog?

If you don't mind my asking, how are you checking for hardness? Usually i's a detent ball or a diamond impression and a microscope. Did you put a dent in the action? removed bluing and any thick surface oxide before checking?

[MBTcustom]

As far as I know, 3-4 months is the fastest any manufacturer of barrels can crank one out. Mike is going with a McGowen barrel, because they have the twist, and the contour that he wants, as well as being made out of chrome moly steel. Last time I called Krieger (about a month ago), they told me they had a 9 month backlog.

Checking the hardness of a Mauser is difficult to do with modern equipment, because Mausers were all case hardened. The steel is not hard all the way through, and is glass hard on the surface and about .016 deep. The inside under that crust is relatively soft. This makes a very tough condition that can take enormous amounts of pressure, but can give deceiving readings on a RC tester.
You see, if the action were as hard as the crust all the way through, then it would be brittle and would shatter when fired like a pipe bomb.:shock:
If the action were the hardness of the core all the way through then the bolt lugs would shear off easily, and would turn the bolt into a projectile of sorts itself. :shock:
The case hardening process only hardens about .016 deep, so all you have to do is make for sure that it was hardened in the critical areas by using a hard scribe to test for hardness. If it slides like glass, then you know they got a good case hardness where you're scratching.
I was told to test the recoil lug areas of the action very carefully, and to make sure that the scribe would slide on those places, and on the lugs of the bolt (this is why it is critical to do nothing to the feed ramp when getting one of these rifles to feed. You can cut right through the case hardening and substantially weaken the lower lug). Mr, Bueler told me that he very rarely ever saw a German 98K that was improperly hardened, but some of the other mausers would be a little soft, or spotty in their hardness. When in doubt, throw it out.
At the end of the day, it is a dangerous thing to trust life and limb to an action that was hardened 75-100 years ago by a very stressed out feller in europe, and is generally thought to be a good idea to test hardness very carefully, and make test shots from a safe distance and to check very carefully for bolt/lug setback, and never be afraid to trash the action if everything is not perfectly kosher.

That being said, all of the smiths I talked to agreed that the action is not the weak link in the build. It's the wood that can fail.
It's imperative to get a very good piece of dense, slow, growth that has straight grain running through the side panels and the wrist of the stock, because that is the weakest part of the wood. Usually, the wood is left large over the action to thicken up the side panels, but the straight grain is the most important.
It is also very important to know how to make a double lug and how to attach it to the underside of the barrel (says the guy that has never done such a thing before). I was told that 3.5-4.0 inches from the action, dovetailed in place and silver soldered. The rifle should be cross bolted in that spot and bedded to the action very carefully and very precisely.

This is the best I can do with what I have learned so far, and there is much I still don't know, so if anybody has any desire to do a build like this for yourself, please do your own research and have respect for the rifle and the cartridge.

So far, this has been a painful journey for me, and I'm sure that it was for everyone that ever got good at this sort of thing. When it is finally built, I will take video of me shooting it and post the results as well as pictures of the completed build.
The level of craftsmanship we are discussing will top the Genesis rifle in quality, and if I can get this rifle to feed and learn the fundamentals of that, I will consider it a personal victory of epic proportions.
Either way, I'm going to learn a lot in the process, and I'll be better for it in the end.

[waksupi]

I just saw this thread. I would guess that I most likely have more experience of building DGR's than most, as that was a specialty at Serengeti. Yes, they do need a straight grained stock. Yes, they do need two cross bolts. No, they don't necessarily need an extra recoil lug.

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks for the description or hardness testing, goodsteel. So you plan to make the rifle feed only by adjusting the rails and magazine follower then?

waksupi, I'm sorry then that I missed you in the chat room yesterday. I caught you just coming in as I was leaving to put my son to bed (or to put dinner on the table, one of the two, I can't remember.) Anyways, I'm curious about the details of what you said, too. Specifically that a DGR may, or may not, require an extra recoil lug under the barrel. What criteria are used to make the decision to use or not to use a barrel recoil lug?

[waksupi]

This is the answer to that question I sent to another member.

"You might try "Gunsmithing Projects" if you don't have it. I mainly learned from Guild members in this area, and Rod Rogers, who designed the Montana 1999 actions. He was also the owner/president of Serengeti Rifles. I have never known a man who knows more about rifles, and what make them tick. I am in absolute awe of him.

The only action we ever added an extra recoil lug to was the Kimber, when we re-chambered for bigger calibers. We only did that, because we didn't like the Remington style recoil lug that comes on the rifles, and we thought with the light rifles we were building on these actions, that the extra recoil lug was a good idea. Reheat treating the actions was necessary afterwards, of course. We never chambered those in anything over .358 Win, so the recoil really wasn't that severe. Most of those were mountain rifles, and a heavy one was 6#, lightest I remember was 5 1/4 #.

The thing with a DGR, is the flex in the magazine section of the rifle, being the weakest point on the stock. When a heavy rifle goes off, the wood sides bow outwards on both sides of the magazine, which causes most stock splits. That is why you want the two cross bolts, and we put three on a couple real stompers, one ahead, and one behind the trigger group, along with the one at the front of the action. The guys recommending the extra recoil lugs don't understand how the stresses work on the stock.

Don't be intimidated by them, just follow sound building practices, and straight grained wood. Refuse any that want real highly figured wood on a DGR. You are just asking for grief. We wouldn't do them even with our three piece laminate stocks, and they are hell for stout."





Thanks for the description or hardness testing, goodsteel. So you plan to make the rifle feed only by adjusting the rails and magazine follower then?

waksupi, I'm sorry then that I missed you in the chat room yesterday. I caught you just coming in as I was leaving to put my son to bed (or to put dinner on the table, one of the two, I can't remember.) Anyways, I'm curious about the details of what you said, too. Specifically that a DGR may, or may not, require an extra recoil lug under the barrel. What criteria are used to make the decision to use or not to use a barrel recoil lug?

[Whiterabbit]

To be honest, that's a really neat revelation. I just built a bench of gorgeous old grown doug fir, and the pieces were selected specifically for tight and straight grain.

It's something I would have never considered for a rifle stock until you mentioned it. But tight grained ruler-straight old-growth wood is among the most beautiful I've seen, of any species.

Bears thinking about.

[timrichardedward]

....Five shots is a typical group. Nobody respects a 3 shot group, because you might have just gotten lucky. If you can keep five inside an inch at 100yards then that's a respectable group. Also, when you are doing this for a business, each box of ammo contains 20 shots. This allows me to test fire 4 rifles with each box of ammo.
I'll add to this by saying that usually for one reason or another, I end up shooting about ten, but 5 is minimum.



When you test these custom rifles do you shoot them from the shoulder, off a bench, or how?

Could you describe any type of fixture for holding these rifles that you might use when testing?

[timrichardedward]

When you test these custom rifles do you shoot them from the shoulder, off a bench, or how?

Could you describe any type of fixture for holding these rifles that you might use when testing?

I am really curious about this....you seem adamant that at least 5 rounds be fired, but how is the customer assured of the quality of the build if you have no repeatable way to test fire the rifle?

[btroj]

Test firing isn't about "repeatbility", it is about proper functioning.

Do rounds feed from the magazine properly? Does the trigger, striker, bolt, extractor, ejector and everything work as they should? Does the proper ammo chamber fully and properly?

He isn't accuracy testing the rifle, he is function firing it.

[waksupi]

Well, we always accuracy tested from the bench, using a heavy lead sled. MOA was expected, even from DGR's. Functioning should be tested before they ever reach the range. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with bench rest testing of rifles?

[MBTcustom]

If I am ever building a rifle that is out of the ordinary for the action being used, I fire the first shot from a safe distance with a string and measure carefully for lug setback. If all is well, it goes on to the bench where testing is continued, sights are set/filed/dialed in.
On a rifle like this, the ammo is so expensive, I was planning to fire the factory ammo to see if the rifle is able to take it, and then reload with whatever components seem reasonable (in this case, Reloader15) and use the reloads to set the sights, once a group is established (checking for lug setback/stock failure periodically of course). I will be working with Mike to see if he is satisfied with the results, and to make changes to the loads as necessary before I cut in the sight blades.

[timrichardedward]

Test firing isn't about "repeatbility", it is about proper functioning.

Do rounds feed from the magazine properly? Does the trigger, striker, bolt, extractor, ejector and everything work as they should? Does the proper ammo chamber fully and properly?

He isn't accuracy testing the rifle, he is function firing it.


Well let's see......he stated he wanted to shoot 5 shot groups rather than 3 because one can get lucky with 3. He further stated that 5 shots inside an inch would be acceptable. Sounds like he is accuracy testing to me.

And yes, I am somewhat unfamiliar with bench rest testing of rifles such as this one. That's why we ask questions.......to learn. As long as learning acceptable, I will continue to ask questions.

Back to the OP......so your testing process is really more than just 5 rounds. You would function fire the rifle until satisfied it is safe and in the end 5 rounds for accuracy testing?

What type of a rest do you use for the accuracy testing?

[MBTcustom]

Well let's see......he stated he wanted to shoot 5 shot groups rather than 3 because one can get lucky with 3. He further stated that 5 shots inside an inch would be acceptable. Sounds like he is accuracy testing to me.

And yes, I am somewhat unfamiliar with bench rest testing of rifles such as this one. That's why we ask questions.......to learn. As long as learning acceptable, I will continue to ask questions.

Back to the OP......so your testing process is really more than just 5 rounds. You would function fire the rifle until satisfied it is safe and in the end 5 rounds for accuracy testing?

What type of a rest do you use for the accuracy testing?

Yes indeed. Five is bare minimum, but in this case (especially since this is the first rifle I have made that has this much recoil) I will probably end up shooting it closer to twenty times. Of course, I have been given full authority to do whatever I think is necessary to assure myself that the rifle is safe once it is built.
In my mind, the accuracy is not the main goal with the test firing. I will build it just like I do my other rifles so it will surely be quite accurate, but mainly, I want to make sure it's going to hold together, and never do any harm to the owner (or anyone who might own it 50 years from now for that matter).
However, this rifle is going to have folding leaf sights, which will require a few shots for each blade to get them cut in correctly.
I will be shooting it off of traditional sandbags on a bench. Nothing special.

[pkie44]

Interesting read! I can't imagine shooting that in a lead sled , or a tire filled with dirt!

[btroj]

Very interesting indeed. You show up here and start hammering on Tim about a rifle build. A thread to a site I have been banned from is suddenly opened such that I can read it? I can't just go to the site and read it as I am banned.

Say hello to Jay Gibson and then boys for me.

[pkie44]

Very interesting indeed. You show up here and start hammering on Tim about a rifle build. A thread to a site I have been banned from is suddenly opened such that I can read it? I can't just go to the site and read it as I am banned.

Say hello to Jay Gibson and then boys for me.
Be interested to hear why you were banned?

[btroj]

Me too

[waksupi]

Be interested to hear why you were banned?

Considering the owner of that board was banned here a long time ago, I would consider it a badge of merit to be kicked off of it. The guy was a real looser here, hence his exit from our premises.

[Love Life]

You ceased seeking info on the caliber awhile back. Your primary focus is now on how accuracy testing is done. If you would like I will link a video from you tube showing how accuracy testing is done.

[pkie44]

What was the website that we are talking about? The link disappeared?

[pkie44]

Thanks, got it bookmarked!

[runfiverun]

yep good information there.
look at the names that posted it.
44 it's by invitation only over there,, good luck.

timrichard: this is some friendly advice.
stop crossing back and forth be here when you are here or you'll be only over there.

[LeMat]

The three amigos didn't seem to have a problem using WDIL as a place to complain and talk smack about members of this forum for a month or so.

[runfiverun]

same thing, here and there.
we didn't and apparently won't be taking it back and forth.
no hard feelings on this end from any of us three. [shrug]