454 Casull Squib

[454PB]

I had a boolit stick in the barrel of my Ruger SRH .454 Casull today.

I was shooting (for me) a very mild load utilizing the Lee 255 SWC and WC 820 powder. This is the first time using this combination, and the exact recipe was:

Lee 255 gr. SWC cast in WW alloy, sized .452, lubed with 50/50 Alox/beeswax.

24.0 gr. WC 820--the middle lot that has a burn rate about the same as AAC#9.

CCI 400 primers.

The first shot was fine, and hit dead center in the bull. The second shot sounded funny, like a quick hangfire. I opened the cylinder to make sure the bore was clear, and it was. The next 3 shots were fine, and grouped closely to the first shot. On the final shot, there was a very dull bang and no recoil. I knew right away what had happened, but checked the bore and saw that there was a boolit stuck in the barrel.

When I got home, I used a brass rod to drive the slug out, it was stuck exactly in the center of the 7 1/2" barrel. It took some pretty good whacks to drive it out, and as the boolit fell onto the recoil shield, the clump of powder fell out with it. I believe it was all one big clump, and the pounding to remove the boolit loosened up a lot of it.

I've used this same lot of WC 820 in heavier loads for all my .454's with no problems whatsoever, but always with 320 grain and heavier boolits.

I had similar problems with erratic ignition in my F.A. 83 using 250 gr. Hornady XTP's and AAC#9 many years ago. Nearly every round was a hangfire at 27 gr.

Lesson learned: Use a faster powder for light boolits.

One of the loaded rounds:


5071


The boolit and clumped powder:


5072

[Dale53]

The only time I ran into this was my first use of a ball powder (H110 or 296) in a .44 magnum. I was using an ancient set of .44 Special Dies. I did some measuring and learned the the full length size die did not produce enough neck tension on the case. This prevented good ignition leaving a bullet in the barrel. I replaced the full length size die with a new one that produced MUCH more neck tension.

I have since shot tens of thousands of .44 magnums using H110, 296, and WC 820 with never a repeat of the problem.

I wonder what the neck tension is on your .454 Casull?

Just a thought...

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

I would guess if your powder was clumped that you experienced lube contamination fro lube on the base of your bullet. Been there done that.

[jar-wv]

I had 2 squib loads in my .454 when I first started loading for it. Both resulted in bullets stuck in the barrel. My conclusion was that bullets were jumping crimp a bit under recoil, resulting in reduced pressure loads with H110. Lee factory crimp die solved the problem for me.

jar

[Junior1942]

I had a boolit stick in the barrel of my Ruger SRH .454 Casull today.

I was shooting (for me) a very mild load utilizing the Lee 255 SWC and WC 820 powder. This is the first time using this combination, and the exact recipe was:

Lee 255 gr. SWC cast in WW alloy, sized .452, lubed with 50/50 Alox/beeswax.

24.0 gr. WC 820--the middle lot that has a burn rate about the same as AAC#9.The Accurate manual shows 24.1 grs min with a 260 gr jacketed bullet. Your lead bullet load isn't producing nearly enough pressure to effectively ignite WC820.

[44man]

Dale is right! Neck tension PLUS a good crimp is needed. That boolit is moving out of the case from primer pressure. A heavy boolit helps but you still do not get a consistant burn if it moves before the powder lights good. Weight is not a cure all for poor tension and the gun should shoot lighter boolits just fine with a slow powder. Get a different expander or polish yours so it doesn't expand the case as much. If your boolits are too soft, the case will also size them resulting in the same problem.

[454PB]

If you look closely at the loaded round, you can see that there is a bulge in the case caused by the tight case grip. I used the same Redding dies to load these as all my other "heavy" loads. I've checked in the past, and even with the recoil of 335 gr. boolits at 1400 fps, my loads do not move the seated boolits. Same lube and storage conditions as all my other loads, and this ammo was loaded less than a month ago. In the original, un-resized photo, you can see the boolit lube still stuck in the lube grooves.

I even put a match to the powder that came out of the barrel, and it burned vigorously. The force of the primer actually compacted the powder charge into a clump.

I had a similar problem over 30 years ago using H-110 in a .44 magnum, and even wrote a short article for "The American Rifleman".

Nope, I'm with junior1942.....just too light a charge for WC 820 and that light boolit. It has the same characteristics as H-110 and WW 296, there is a lower threshold of pressure that can not be exceeded.

[44man]

First, you do not understand case tension. Look at my load, you can see the GREASE GROOVES through the brass. Seeing the base of the boolit is not enough.
The next thing is that it is NOT the loads in adjacent chambers that are the problem, IT IS THE ONE BEING FIRED that moves foreward from primer pressure alone, compacts the powder and does not burn right. Just because the unfired rounds do not move means nothing.

[44man]

By the way, crimp until they break and it will not solve poor case tension. :Fire:

[454PB]

First, you do not understand case tension. Look at my load, you can see the GREASE GROOVES through the brass. Seeing the base of the boolit is not enough.
The next thing is that it is NOT the loads in adjacent chambers that are the problem, IT IS THE ONE BEING FIRED that moves foreward from primer pressure alone, compacts the powder and does not burn right. Just because the unfired rounds do not move means nothing.

Maybe I did not word it well. The way I've tested my crimping is to fire five 335 gr. boolits at 1400 fps, then remove the last still loaded round and look for any indication that the boolit moved forwards during that recoil. Kind of like using the gun as a inertia bullet puller. Again, these loads were assembled with the same dies, sizing, mouth flairing, seating, and crimping as all my other handloads. Some of my .454 loads have a COL that barely clears the front of the cylinder, I don't want any movement and I'm very focused on proper case tension, seating, and crimping.

The fact that the unfired rounds do not move under this kind of recoil indicates that neck tension and crimping are correct. If the dies were oversized or the expanding/flairing was excessive, it would certainly have shown up in the many, many thousands of rounds they have loaded. This only happens with light boolits backed by relatively light charges of slow burning ball powders.

[twotrees]

I've had J'word bullets move forward with starting loads of 296 powder. I crimp Heavy, but that Raging Bull is the best bullet puller I have ever seen. Skins your elbows up good too if you forget and rest them on the bench (Yeoch!!)

Good Shooting (I have some 820 fast down stairs, gotta check this out)

TwoTrees

[44man]

I give up then, I have to admit I don't know what is going on with that powder. :confused: Some of it must be burning but why does it go out? It should have a progessive burn down some length of the barrel.
I see you are using the CCI 400, what would happen with a mag primer or a different primer? Might not be any better because once the powder is lit it should stay lit until consumed. As long as case tension is good to start a pressure rise, pressure should keep rising after the boolit moves out and goes down the bore until the powder is gone or the space gets so large, pressure falls, not common with short barrels. Actually there is still powder burning after the boolit leaves the muzzle.
I have to wonder if there is something wrong with your powder.
I have never used 820 or AA 9, prefering 296 for all of my guns. I have used 296 since it first came out and never had a single problem and all I use in the .44 and .45 is the Fed 150 primer. I go to the 155 in the .475 and 45-70.
Will increasing the charge make it burn better? If you figure this out, please post, I want to know.

[454PB]

We all have heard of the dangers of using reduced loads of H-110 and WW296. I've been using those powders for over 30 years, and I always used them at "recommended" maximum loads or reduced less than 5%.

My theory is that the same rules apply to other slow burning ball powders like AAC#9 and WC 820. I broke that rule if you assume that WC 820 (my lot number) is the same burn rate as AAC#9. As I originally reported, I had the same experience using AAC#9 in reduced loads and jacketed 250 gr. Hornady XTP's. I was being cautious and working up from below, and started TOO low. No stuck bullets, but nearly 100% hangfires.

I can't prove it, but I don't think any of the powder ignited in this case. I think the primer did all the work, pushing the boolit halfway through the barrel and compacting the entire powder charge against the base of the boolit. Perhaps a magnum primer would make a difference, but I'm not willing to pound any more boolits out to find out.

This was an experimental load that I expected to produce around 1200 fps. I can produce that velocity easily with Bluedot, Herco, or even HS-6 and at a far smaller powder weight. I have over 30 pounds of WC 820, and have used it sucessfully in my heavier loads in .44 magnum, 454, .357 magnum, and even reduced rifle loads. This was not meant as an indictment of the slower burning ball powders, just a heads up to those that dabble in low charge weight/low boolit weight uses of them. It made a believer out of me!

[leftiye]

AA#9 works well with about 20 grs (AA data that I use as my main load) in .454 behind an RCBS 300 grainer sized.454". Two different manuals put this at 19000 cup'z, IIRC. This seems to suggest that the extra boolit weight is essential to keeping the powder burning. That's If your powder is really okay. With the lighter boolit, it must get out of the way so fast that pressures drop so low that the powder stops burning. Let's hope that you are right about the powder not even starting to burn (I think you are), because this other picture is real scary.

[Lloyd Smale]

we did a bunch of testing with 820 this summer in the 44 mag and with a 250 grain bullet if we went below 19 grains we got real inconsistant velocitys. Sometimes as much as 300 fps so it obviously doesnt like being loaded down alot. but to have none of it ignite id go back to either a powder contamination or primer contamination guess.

[44man]

Loading any slow powder below suggested starting loads scares me when the dreaded S.E.E. thing can happen. I even had it happen in my Swede with 4831 and the suggested, most accurate load. It WAS accurate, I shot it for years until one blew the primer out and I needed a mallet to open the bolt. I switched to Varget.
I would say that all the unburned powder behind a boolit lodged out in the bore is a bomb waiting to go off, all it needs is re-lit.

[454PB]

What Lloyd is reporting parallels what I experienced. Had he dropped another grain or so, he would have been in the same weight reduction percentage wise as I was. I found it interesting that four of the five shots that hit the target were clustered in about 1". The second shot, which was a "click-bang" hit about 2" low.

Will you guys measure your expanders for .45 caliber and post it here? I did a bunch of measuring yesterday of both .45 caliber and .44 caliber die sets and wrote it all down.

[truckboss]

ok,i loaded 20 grn of #9 behind 335 grn wfngc,never had any problems.heavy bullet i guess.i've tried expanders from .449 to .453 and varied the crimp.with a lee factory crimp,super heavy to very light and loads the same way.with most my loads i use the .449 expander,this seems to me to be the key.you can see the lube groves on the loaded case and i used to think this was to much but when i changed expanders the bullet would move and jam the cyl.,with the same crimp.

[Snapping Twig]

Just an armchair quarterback guess, but based on the pic and description, I'd have to go with powder contamination. Powder's natural state isn't a clump. If the powder was still granular, I could understand the crimp issue, but it's clumped and looks wet. Wet doesn't ignite.

It could be humidity in the extreme or it could be lube, but I'd bet my last dollar it is one of the two.

[9.3X62AL]

45 Colt expander diameter in my RCBS T/C set reads @ .449", as does the 45 ACP die set expander.

I don't load ANY ball powder (except WW-231) under 90% loading density--EVER--in ANY application. I've read here of folks using low-density loads of WC-820 in cast boolit rifle loads, and it scares my spitless. WON'T DO IT--EVER.

I'm prepared to believe a "clumping" occurred due to primer-generated pressure, in absence of lube or solvent contamination of the powder charge. I have read reliable reports of similar occurrences under similar circumstances. Not to say that the powder WASN'T uncontaminated, but I don't think contamination is required to produce this phenomenon.

I am also prepared to believe that a "Perfect Storm" of ignition anomalies is at work here--hard to ignite ball powder, low density load, powder up against the bullet and open space in front of the flash hole--thus producing very weak or non-existent propellant combustion and driving the ejecta mass halfway up the barrel. This isn't based on any deep research or cited source, just a semi-educated guess at the possible cause.

[pumpguy]

I tend to agree with Al. I am not suggesting you do it, but, I bet if you loaded up a round exactly the same way as before except for the powder, the bullet would end up in the exact same place. Lesson is don't down load that powder.

[Big Boomer]

Some time in the late '80s an old friend and college buddy and I bought from Pat McDonald in Massillon, Ohio, a large quantity of W820 (150 lbs - I. e., 75 lbs each). Our lot must have been the faster lot. I started with about 17 gr. with a 340 gr. WLN gas check boolit from Veral Smith at LBT & the Lyman made mould for Freedom Arms #454629, a 300 gr. gas check boolit with CCI mag primers. Worked up gradually to about 20 - 22 gr. for a stiff load that is very effective on deer and very accurate from any of our .45 Colts. Also it is a great powder for .357 mag., .41 mag & .44 mag. This powder is about halfway between 2400 & H110 in burn rate. It is my go-to powder for moderate to heavy loads in all the above calibers except the .44 mag, which I no longer have. Very versatile powder. YMMV depending on which burn rate you have. My only complaint is that it smells light burned rags when fired. Big Boomer

[44man]

I forgot to mention the primer, darn it anyway.
The SR primer is the weak link in the .454. The caliber should use a LP mag primer and cut down .460 brass with a LP mag will cure it right quick.

[5Shot]

Well...this one is like 9 years old, so I think the issue has been resolved :D