AR15 and reasonable accuracy

[Jal5]

I know this has probably been done before and accuracy from a rifle is subjective for each of us. but it is the type of thing in load development that drives me nuts.

The rifle is a DPMS AR15 .223/556 without any switched out components, stock rifle. Scope is a red dot which has a double magnifier attachement, Vortex Strikefire. all mounts, etc. are tight and the scope functions fine.

Ammo is my reloads- here is where I get crazy. At 50 yds. I can shoot less than 1" groups with Midway Dogtown 55 gr. jacketed bullet/Reloader 7 and I was excited to try it at the longer distance on the next trip to the range. What should be reasonable accuracy at 100 yds? I shot a fist sized 10 shot group last weekend using these and I haven't measured it but lets say around 4.5 " group. I was expecting a lot better accuracy than that. Everything was the same, brass, amount of powder, primer, reloading methods, etc. Both distances were shot from rifle bag rests on the same bench. There was maybe slightly more breeze on the day I shot the 100 yd group.

I am thinking about trying both distances again with this load and see what I can do.
Any thoughts for me? thanks.
Joe

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Most ARs I have shot will do about 1"~1.5" at one hundred yards. The red dot sight could be your problem, how big is the dot?

I should point out that all the ARs I have shot where home builds. Nothing fancy or match grade and most where flat tops with a scope mounted.

[freebullet]

I've had several dpms ar's over the years. For me to shoot them well I had to get rid of the mil spec trigger. A 2lb weighted hammer jard is my fav. & the wife does great with the jp 3lb. That one mod turned ours into a ragged one hole shooter. Had one in 308 w/bull barrel, should have shot great. At 200yds couldnt keep an 8" pattern. Swap the trigger using same ammo & 2" groups were easy at 200. Also loose the red dot for distance or accuracy.

[mj2evans]

Keep in mind that the US govt accepts a 4" test group at 100 yds (meters?) for 556 ammo. Honestly I was not impressed with a CMMG carbine I picked up - accuracy wise at 100yds. I shoot some across the course high power and have posted some master level scores so I think I can load some ammo an shoot irons ok. I was getting maybe 3" at 100yds honestly that did not impress me (this after putting in a rock river NM trigger, stock one was nasty). I think it takes a better barrle (not skinny) and a free float tube to really get the accuracy up in an AR.

[Jal5]

I thought about swapping out that red dot scope for one in the 2-4x or 3-9x range like I use in other rifles that I own. That red dot is ok non magnified at 50 yds for me with an adjustable dot, but at 100 yds I didn't feel like it was working for me even with a 2x doubler on it. Joe

[Jailer]

That red dot is probabaly a 4 MOA dot. If you shot 4 1/2 inches at 100 yards you did pretty good for the optic you are using IMHO.

Put a scope on it and as others have said an upgraded trigger works wonders for improved accuracy.

My last build is my fun gun/competition gun. I got lucky with my Stag lower parts kit and got a GI trigger that was smooth as glass so I've left it alone.

[Larry Gibson]

The large dot probably contributes to some inaccuracy. However, if you are centering the dot on a 6 - 8" bullseye at 100 yards accuracy should be very good. I like to use 50 yard CF pistol targets w/8" bulls at 100 yards for the larger 3 - 4+ moa dots. Another potential problem is with the Dogtown bullets, their thinner jackets and the fast rate of wist of most ARs these days. If you have a 7" - 9" twist barrel the bullets may be beginning to come unglued which can cause accuracy problems as the range is extended. Some thinnr jacketed varmint bullets are known for completely spinning apart 25 - 50 yards in front of the muzzle out of fast twist barrels if velocities are much above 2700 - 2800 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Jal5]

This target was all I had left that day.
4 5/8 in. Group. A 9.75 in. Target circle 5.5in. Black circle. Supposed to be a 25 yd pistol slow fire target. 77730

[garym1a2]

I recommend a high power scope for load development. I have a cheap 6x scope I use to devolve ar loads. Than I remove it and add the red dot.

[Jupiter7]

I think there's more development to be done on your part. I've regularly shot 1" groups with a 2moa aimpoint from a bench with bags, even a few times using 30rd mag as improvised mono-pod.

[Lights]

My Dads bone stock DPMS A1 lite will shoot 1" and under 5 shot groups with most factory 55gr ammo. When I reload for him they tighten up but not much. I build my self a AR15 out of just about every brand. The one thing I did not skimp on was the barrel. I bought a White Oak Armorment 18" 1:12 twist mid length gas port varmint barrel. I also did my own trigger work. Now I do not have any creep. I can hold 100 yrd groups to less than 5/8" with my loads. Factory loads will group just under 1" in the same gun.

I would put a 3X9 scope on her and try again. I am not a fan of the red dot scopes.

[Jailer]

A red bulls eye is the worst target for shooting with a red dot. Try using a target with a blue background.

[Jal5]

That Strikefire has red and green dot so I used the green at 100 yd.

[MtGun44]

Get a 4x or more powerful scope, 3-9X at 9X is much better, and work on your
benchrest supports - front AND rear, that let the gun just sit there, you are NOT
supporting it, just guiding it.

I normally get 5/8 to 1.5" from ARs, depending on boolit and load. Sierra 69 MKs
do about as good as anything that I have tried. Matched brass helps, mixed
brass hurts, but that said, I usually get 1.5 from ordinary 55 FMJBTs and mixed
brass.

Bill

[Jal5]

Rifle is fully supported and I match brass too. I think it's the scope and my old eyes. Red dot is ok for close work but not for distance thanks guys.

[country gent]

I have seen ARS shoot impressive groups and most will do very well. Bench teqhnique, load development sighting is all critical. I have red dots on several handguns for plinking and even at 25-50 yds on smaller targets the dot covers the target meaning you cant actually see alighnment of the sight to target. Try putting a bigger bullseye up and zeroing to hit above it. An 1" of black around the dot or so makes seeing the centering much easier. Putting the group above the aiming point dosnt change the aiming point as shots are fired. As the group form due to light and changes the bull can start to appear oval, putting the group off the bull allows the bull to stay round in apperance. You are testing ammo and rifle right now groups are groups Shooting bullseyes is a sight adjustment.

[DCM]

Rifle is fully supported and I match brass too. I think it's the scope and my old eyes. Red dot is ok for close work but not for distance thanks guys.

IMO you found your answer. I love dots for speed but I do not find them accurate at farther distances for my eyes.
A regular scope is great for load development as long as you don't go overboard on magnification, too much and you will see tons of mirage and try to make things too perfect.

[MtGun44]

I put a red dot on a Mauser 98 just to try out the concept a number of years ago.
Great at 25 and 50, very quick on target. At 100 yds, I was getting about 4-5", not too
bad for that particular rifle, but at 200yds groups opened to 24" or more, where the
original open sights would do about 6-7" on a bullseye. Took off the red dot
and never looked back.

Bill

[Phoenix]

ARs have a ridiculously wide array of capabilities when it comes to groups.

I have a Olympic match, bull barrel ar with trigger job. It will shoot .6-1" groups all day even at 200 yds. Any spreading is usually on me. However I also have a 6-24 nightforce scope on it (got it cheap, Well cheap for a nightforce) with light shroud, Tack driver all day. I have more than one plain jane AR, all stock that will shoot 1-1.75" groups at 200 yds all day. You should be able to get sub MOA out of a stock AR, with good ammo or good reloads.

I second/third the notion of the scope. Even an NCstar 3-12 would do better than a red dot. I have a strikefire on my LAR-308 and it does very good under 50 yds not so much beyond that. I have allot of holographic sights as my wife is left eye dominant and right handed. Both eyes open makes shooting the side of the barn possible for her.

[Mud Eagle]

Is it a 16" carbine or 20" rifle?

[akajun]

First determine your barrel twist, if its a dpms, its more than likely a 1/9. Try using a 69gr bullet with 25 grains of varget or reloader 15. Also 77gr with 24.1 of either powder. Although 1/9 twist should shoot most 55gr ball ammo nicely
Next ditch the red dot scope and put in a good trigger.
BTW I shoot only iron sights as Im a Service Rifle competitor and my ar's will shoot under 1" @100yds, even my uppers with lower quality barrels.

[BUSHMASTER]

Just a suggestion but i would change out your optic most red dot scopes ive used the dot covers the target leaving alot of room for error

[Dale in Louisiana]

Just a suggestion but i would change out your optic most red dot scopes ive used the dot covers the target leaving alot of room for error

As they say on the firing line, "Aim small, hit small".

dale in Louisiana

[ipijohn]

Just a suggestion but i would change out your optic most red dot scopes ive used the dot covers the target leaving alot of room for error

My AR has never had a red dot on it. I consider dot sites appropriately used on shotguns and pistols therefore my AR is currently wearing a 6 X 24. Another advantage is that I can see the 22 diameter holes in targets at 24 power (@100 yds) and don't need to carry around a spotting scope when shooting at that range.

[MtGun44]

Mud Eagle,

Are/were you pilot or wizzo on the F15Es? Did you get in on Desert Storm? A
good friend's brother was a wizzo on Echos and had some interesting stories after
DS. Very cool bird.

Bill

[Jal5]

Old post but sometimes it takes me a long time to get back to a project like this!
I switched out the scope to a plain old Bushnell 4x that I had lying around and that did improve things a lot. Same setup at the bench, same reloaded rounds and at 100 yds a respectable for me anyway 1.25" group of six. I would have played more with it but was running out of time this afternoon. Group had shot 2-3 touching and 4-5 touching, 1&6 were adjacent to each other.

Any other thoughts to tighten up this group? Load is 55 gr Midway Dogtown bullet, FC brass, 21.2 g Reloader 7, OAL 2.2405, slight roll crimp.
Thanks.
Joe

[Jal5]

The picture of the target

85605

[freebullet]

Congrats! Always a good feeling to go from patterns to groups. Looks like the gun is capable of doing even better. Find a slightly higher power scope(3-9's are cheap) , little trigger work(eliminate the creep & over travel), & putting that bullet 20thousandths off the throat will turn it into a 1 hole shooter or close to it.
I've put guns that I could not do any good with in a machine rest, only to find they will shoot the same hole. Finding out what's holding things back is the challenge.

[OBIII]

Load development for a specific gun may require some more variables to be introduced. Heavier bullet, different powder, filler/no filler, etc. If you are looking to shoot quarter or smaller sized groups, this would require a lot of dedication. Trigger pull, time between shots, fouling shots or no, all lead to lots of variables and working up multiple loads. For me, since I am not a competition shooter, (other than with myself), if I can put the majority of my rounds into a man-sized target center mast at 300 yards plus, I'm golden.
OB

[Jal5]

freebullet-
that particular OAL is the longest the mag will allow and still function without hangup and it doesn't engage the rifling either as determined by my experiments with a cast boolit that I made up. That cast boolit has a slightly flat nose compared to the jacketed Midway bullet though. Still have a long way to go with the cast boolit loads too.
Joe

[wv109323]

I just got back from the range where I sighted in my latest modification to one of my AR-15's. It was originally a heavy barrel A2. I went from the A2 upper to a flat top receiver and mounted a Tasco Pro-point sight( no magnification). I just can not see open sights anymore. The parts kit was from M&A in Ill. The lower receiver is an Essential Arms. No Trigger work. I was shooting at a 25 Yard timed and rapid fire pistol target at 70 yards. The red dot filled about 90% of the black 9&10 ring. I was using the rifle case as a front support on a bench. I shot two Three shot groups of 1-1 1/8" CTC groups. One group was WW748 with Sierra 52gn. HPBT Match bullets. The second group was with Remington 55 gn. and BL-C(2). My twist is 1-10.

[country gent]

There are single round followers available for the ars, they replace the follower in a standard magazine . A trough to hold the bullet in position and they lock the bolt back. Used alot in NRA High Power matches. They also allow a longer than standard round to be used. Wth the 1-10 twist you might wantto give he 69 grn sierras a try. It may do better with a longer bullet. Also try shooting at longer ranges if possible, sight alighnment errors are about the same. Also some bullets dont go to sleep until they have traveled a ways. I used alot of reloader 15 and varget in 223 but also shot 75 and 80 grn bullets. ( 80s were a long load to be single loaded only.). Make sure the gas tube isnt binding anywhere.

[btroj]

At 100 yards a 52 hpbt will often outshoot a 69 Sierra. The 69 gains an edge in wind and past 200 yards but for pure 100 yard groups a 52 hpbt wins hands down.

RE 15 is an awesome powder with 69s and heavier, my rifles like it real well.

A good, well made AR can shoot some unreal groups. Mine will do under an inch at 100 all day long. 1 in 7 Pacnor barrel and a good float tube help.

[freebullet]

You may get better results with a bullet that will get you near the throat when loaded in the mag. Said bullet would be a better fit for your gun. You can make an overall length gauge, if you don't have one. I full length sized, then cut with a mini dremel cut off wheel. Then stone the burrs off.
85718
My last dpms would shoot out the bullseye at 100yd, with REM 55fmj w/varget. They did purty well out to 300. I never did shoot boolits in those.

[Jailer]

Old post but sometimes it takes me a long time to get back to a project like this!
I switched out the scope to a plain old Bushnell 4x that I had lying around and that did improve things a lot. Same setup at the bench, same reloaded rounds and at 100 yds a respectable for me anyway 1.25" group of six. I would have played more with it but was running out of time this afternoon. Group had shot 2-3 touching and 4-5 touching, 1&6 were adjacent to each other.

Any other thoughts to tighten up this group? Load is 55 gr Midway Dogtown bullet, FC brass, 21.2 g Reloader 7, OAL 2.2405, slight roll crimp.
Thanks.
Joe

RE 7 is at the fast end of powders for 55gr jacketed. Try a slower powder and see what you get. I've gone as slow as 748 with good accuracy. My current load is 26.5gr of WC844 and Hornady bulk pack 55gr FMJBT. Under an inch all day long at 100 yards in my 8 twist rifle.