Ruger only 45colt load question

[newton]

I am once again going to attempt to load my Ruger with some hotter loads in anticipation of hunting season approaching. I was gathering information last year, but never went ahead with the plans...especially when the powder availability ran dry around here.

Normally I just load normal, light plinking, loads. In fact, these will be probably the only box I will ever load which is what prompts my question. Well, these and another box of heavier ones probably.

So I have been looking around and most of the time H110 and W296 come in at the forefront. 2400 and 4227 are close behind also. But in all honesty with only loading 100 of these rounds, and not using any of the above mentioned powders for anything else, I have a hard time deciding to track down and buy a pound of one of these.

I do have Unique on hand. But the "heavy" loads with it usually stop at 250 grains. However, I just ran across a place where someone posted some pictures from Hogdons #26 manual. Low and behold, Unique is listed in almost all the loads for the Hercules(Alliant) powder section, all the way up to 325 grains.

So my curiosity is why its not listed in the newer manuals or data available? Is it just not real good, or one of those situations where real close attention is critical and no room for error? I know that the faster powders have faster pressure spikes and wondered if that's the only reason for them not being included in the more recent data.

I would like to be able to use the Unique I have on hand. Or even the Herco(I've used it in place of Unique with some slight load modifications). I won't really use any of the Hogdons powders for anything else and 2400 would be the only one I might use in other loads, but it would be minimal.

Anyone have experience with the heavy Unique loadings?

[Jupiter7]

I run unique in my 4 5/8th BH. 11.4grs under lee 255rnfp(drops 260). Unique just isn't efficient as the other powder choices, but workable. Most have read Linebaugh article and I've gone back to it at least 5 times. Recoil is stout, but contollable and I can keep a cylinder on a paper plate at 50yds. I just bought a Lyman 454424 and will load and test it prior to season here. I'd prefer the Keith profile for it's proven track record.


http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

[44MAG#1]

My Lyman 49th manual list Unique for the 325 gr bullet. Namely 8.5 gr at 900 fps out of a 10 inch Contender.
Get you some 2400 and the 270 RCBS SAA bullet and load 19 grs and don't worry about it.
It will serve you well.

[newton]

Yea, I've read that article a lot. There is also other articles of those who Linebaugh made believers out of with his stout loads.

I figured I could use it, and his data, with the 255-260 grain, but wondered about the 300 grain more. I am not too worried about accuracy, its mostly for a backup/bear gun.

Any idea on what velocity your getting with the lee boolit? When I eventually load I'll run them over the chrony myself, but just curious what I might expect.

[PS Paul]

Look, you CAN use Unique for heavy loads and you CAN do it safely in your BH. There are data out there to support this. As mentioned above, there are more efficient powders for heavy boolits/loads, but if you only want to use what you got, do it. BUT, just know that heavy charges of Unique are tough on guns, as are most heavy charges of faster-burning powders.

So, can you do it? YES
Will it work for hunting loads? Yes
Will other powders work better? Yes
Will heavy charges of Unique result in stout recoil? Yes
Should you post pics of the deer or hogs you kill with it? By all means, yes!!!

Hope this helps.

[Jupiter7]

Haven't chrono'd, yet. But I'd figure 1000fps or a tad over. The article does have data for 300gr bullets with unique. Most say it isn't necessary for Ruger only loads to take a deer. Ive never handgun hunted, so I wanted to stack the deck. I figure if all goes well and I'm convinced first hand of the lethality with this load, I may drop it down a bit. I'll also try warm 45's in my 1911 if I can get it to a satisfactory velocity with a proper boolit.

[Char-Gar]

If you are not willing to load hundreds if not thousands of heavy load with which to practice and become accomplished in their use, leave the handgun at home and take a rifle. The game deserves better.

[newton]

I know there is more than enough data to show that its acceptable, just want to get the consensus of why the other powders over Unique. Sounds like its just because of the fast burning nature of it. This is more curiosity than anything. I've settled on using Unique, and will work up a load to what I feel comfortable with and is in reason. But I do want to rise above the norm.

I forgot about the hogs in the woods I'll be frequenting. I know its not going to be a first choice weapon, just the backup/second shot if needed.

In all honesty, I know that a plain ole 250 grain cast boolit would put just about anything down at the given range I plan on using it. But hey, something about big guns, big bangs, and big thumps that make a man smile.

Char, I understand what your saying, but realistically its a bit over the top. A guy does not have to shoot hundreds of rounds to become accomplished. Does it hurt? Not at all. But a guy can miss just as bad with a rifle as he can with a handgun. As long as a person is realistically shooting a gun good, and stays in the limits of what he has practiced, it does not matter if its been 10 or 10,000 rounds.

[Char-Gar]

When you can go keep all of your rounds on a paper plate from a field shooting position at your self imposed range limits you are good to go hunting. If you can't do that, practice some more until you can, shorten your range, or use a rifle. I will wager it will take you more than one box to get you there.

I have been around big bore handguns for a very long time and heavy recoiling loads require far more practice to use effectively than light plinking loads. I don't think that is "over the top", just my opinion based on experience and observation of others.

As an aside, in decades of hunting, I have never missed a deer with a rifle or a pistol. I know my range limits and ability. I practice allot and don't take shots that are "iffy". It is not a matter of being a superhuman shot, it is a matter of discipline, sportsmanship and personal responsibility.

[PS Paul]

Char, as often he does, makes perfectly good sense in the above post.

[44MAG#1]

Newton,

Since one doesn't need to shoot much to be a good shot what kind of group can you hold on average at 50 yards offhand with a stiff load? A mild load? With your 45 Colt.

[newton]

I completely agree with your last post Char. A person should impose accuracy, not numbers.

In fact, me personally, even though I have heard the ole pie plate description, I hold myself to a tighter standard.

If I am not hitting inside of a 6" circle, at minimum, at said distance then I will not hunt with that gun. Most times it is even tighter 3"-4", but that is my own personal self imposed absolute minimum. Got me some little dainty pie plates to use for that.

But my above comment still stands that I guarantee you it did not take me near a hundred rounds, much less a thousand, before I was hunting with most of my guns. I became accomplished, so I went hunting.

Don't misunderstand my desire for "hot loads" as a want for distance shooting or to make up for bad shots. I simply want some hot loads for "if" the distance is right, and "if" the game is right, then the more power delivered to the game the more humane it is killed.

People can have a multitude of opinions about sportsmanship. Some guys, like you will park on the ability to shoot, others will park on the caliber of choice. I, myself, park on respect given to another life your going to take regardless of anything.

There is nothing immoral about hunting with a bow and arrow even though it is a fact that even with the best shot, an animal will not die as quickly as it would with a good shot with a gun. Does that mean the animal deserves better than a hunter with a bow? No, not in my opinion and I would not down someone for hunting with a bow.

Its great that you are a good shot. I have missed deer before. Big time. I knew it when I shot. I got so excited I yanked that trigger clean over their heads. I learn from those times and move on.

One mans ethics cannot be, nor should be, imposed on another. I think we have enough of it going on in our world today without it happening within the ranks of us who actually like to shoot guns versus those who want them all destroyed.

[newton]

Newton,

Since one doesn't need to shoot much to be a good shot what kind of group can you hold on average at 50 yards offhand with a stiff load? A mild load? With your 45 Colt.

Uh oh, this isn't turning into a "oh yea, mine is bigger than yours" match is it?

I have not started shooting at 50 yards with my gun, well not extensively, but I am willing to give it a shot. ;-)

I have only concentrated out to 25, and so far I can keep them within a 6" circle. That's with a mild load. I do better with a plinking load. And we shall soon see about a stiff load, but I have no desire to have this gun as my main gun. I think I have made that abundantly clear.

So 50 yards is more or less an arbitrary number and not relevant to my topic at hand.

[Char-Gar]

Newton, this is not a "mine is bigger than yours" contest. I take it as a rather serious discussion on handgun hunting and it's parameters. My gut feeling, based on my understanding of human nature, is you really are not interested in information that runs contrary to your own predetermined notions.

I have no interest in trying to convince you of something, after your mind is made up otherwise.

I will only say that 6" groups at 25 yards with light loads is on the very low end of mediocre shooting with a handgun and far below the skill level needed to be "accomplished" or go hunting with a handgun. Stretch the range out to 100 yards with that number and heavy hunting loads and I would call you an entry level handgunner. I am not trying to demean you, be arrogant or insulting, I am just giving you a reality check.

The black bull on a standard 25 yard pistol target is 5.5 inches. You could not even keep your shots in the black. It would take all of your shots clustered into the center 10 and X rings in about 2" for ten shots to be accomplished. This mind you is off hand using only one hand.

I think it was Will Rogers that said: "Some men learn by reading, others by watching and some by listening. The rest have to pee on the electric fence.". With that I will leave you to your endeavors.

[44MAG#1]

No, it is not a mine is bigger than yours deal. I am curious when someone makes statement such as: "A guy does not have to shoot hundreds of rounds to become accomplished. Does it hurt? Not at all. But a guy can miss just as bad with a rifle as he can with a handgun."
I would like to know the secret of not needing to shoot a lot to be good and I am sure many others on here would like to know how to do it too.
In these day one needs to conserve as much as possible.
The load I suggested is plenty powerful enough and will not beat you to death at the same time.
This load offhand at 100 yards will shoot very well if you will just hold it.
Also I gave you the latest data from Lyman on the 325 gr bullet also.
When there isn't alot of info on a given bullet and powder one has to do some experimenting on their own with the info one has.
Give 50 yards (arbitrary number and not relevant to your topic at hand) a whirl with what you got and see whether it is difficult or not.
Try some of your heavies with Unique and you will know first hand how they do.
That is what I would do.

[rexherring]

Don't knock boolits in the 250 - 260 range. The Mule Deer I've shot with my BH never went more than a few feet. Loaded to a little over 1000fps and a 250 RCBS SWC. Just put it where it counts. Broadside shots were never recovered and the on I hit that was coming straight at me was recovered just under the hide on his rear end. Almost complete lengthwise penetration.

Over all, I'd still get a slower powder like 2400 just because it's also easier on the cases. After shooting my .45 BH since the early 70's I've noticed that Unique in heavier loads wear out the cases much faster than the same velocity slower powder loads.

[Pooch]

I use the LEE 452-300-RF GC in my new model Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I load it with 10 grs. Unique. The Ruger Blackhawk has no problems handling this load. Substantial but controllable recoil & very hard hitting.

[newton]

44, I do appriciate your input and will use it for sure. I'm not saying someone who shoots a lot is not good, but neither is the idiot who sprays thousands and thousands of rounds from a sub machine gun. Does that make him an accomplished shooter?

Round count, while an indication of how many times one has shot a gun, does not dictate the proficiency of the one shooting. I believe an accomplished shooter is one who can pick up any gun, in good working order, and shoot it well. How many rounds will it take? Who knows, but shooting is more than pulling a trigger.


Char, I like to consider myself a good listener. And although I try not to impose my beliefs on others, I just ask for the same. I also like clarity over confussion.

No where did I say that I was going to be hunting with the gun as a primary weapon. Yes, the gun will be with me while I am hunting, but that does not mean I will hunt with it. Make sense?

I carry a handgun as a backup. As in, if I get in a predicament when I'm in close quarters with something and I need to shoot quickly or do not need a rifle. This was what my statement about accuracy is about. God forbid, and quite doubtful, but if a wild boar or bear is coming at me the last thing I am going to worry about is how "humanely" I shoot it. I doubt it would be looking at me and thinking about how humanely it is going to get me.

So while I'm not taking offense, please understand that you sounded like you were telling me that until I put hundreads, if not thousands, of rounds out my gun, that I should not be carrying it into the woods with me.

Someone once told me he believed I was "unteachable". I laughed as it was because I did not agree with him, or with some others, on matters which have a wide interpretation. Just because one can cut the X on a piece of paper does not mean he will always shoot exactly when hunting. It only means at that given moment he cut the X on a piece of paper.

I learn most by doing things. I listen, I watch, I read - but at then end of the day I get up and just do.

There are not many "accomplished" shooters who view themselves as such. They might be viewed by others as such, and probably view others moreso than them. When one feels they are accomplished, then they have lost motivation to go further. Not to say they don't, but not like they used to.

I most likely will never feel like an accomplished shooter. I might see my improvement over the years, but always know I have further to go.

I like the quote, and try to live by it, "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.".

Man oh man how a thread can digress. My topic still stands, but maybe I have gotten the information I was seeking(simply why Unique is not listed in todays heavy Ruger loads like it was years ago). So if the thread needs to be closed so be it.

[newton]

Case life - that makes sense. That would be a good reason not to use it so much. I'm going to assume that just one time with heavy loads, while it will decrease case life, won't abrubtly end it?

I am quite litteraly only going to load maybe 100 rounds altogether. Simple to have on hand for those time I go out and carry/shoot something with significantly more power than the standard loads. I guess you never know, I might wind up liking it and decide to load more. If that's the case, then I'll for sure heed advise given and go slower with powder choices.

[zxcvbob]

Have you tried loading 250 or 255 grain boolits up around 1300 fps? You can do that with Herco or Blue Dot pretty easily; can probably get really close with Unique. Don't know why you'd need or want heavier unless you're hunting bison.

ETA: I forgot to mention, 1300 is with a 7.5" barrel.

[DougGuy]

What Ruger model do you have and what barrel length? I am assuming it is NOT one of the new model vaqueros or new model flattops because they can only handle 23,000psi where the old vaquero and blackhawks/super blackhawks can handle 30,000. Easy way to tell, if it's a 3 digit prefix, it is NOT SAFE with Ruger Only loads. 2 digit prefix in serial number, good to go.

I have an old 4 5/8" Vaquero that I punched the cylinder throats out to .4525" and took a constriction out of the barrel and it is a great shooting sixgun. I have 5 heavyweight loads that shoot to the top of the front sight.

Been shooting heavy .45 Colt loads for ohh 25+yrs now, and I have best results and best accuracy out of this gun with boolits in the 300gr+ range. I used H110 or W296 for years, but found that LilGun in my loads lived up to it's claims of same velocity as H110 but with less pressure and less felt recoil. I gave it a try and it is working really good.

For the deer I got one I call a "BuckBuster" which is the 300gr WFN from the Lee C452-300-RF mold, and the sweet spot with this one is 20.5gr LilGun. It's accurate and has no pressure signs at all, I am guessing out of my short barrel it's somewhere around 1175f/s maybe as much as 1250f/s.

For the porkers I use the same boolit, just harder alloy, same powder, and I call it a "BoarBuster."

I stay away from Unique in this caliber for those boolit weights. Too hairy over 10gr and pretty much unpredictable and other powders work much better. Lighter boolits, slower velocity, Unique would be fine but I'm just over the line on being comfortable with that much Unique and LilGun has proven itself more accurate by about 1/3 smaller groups so I was glad to have found that load and worked it up.

Also this is a gas check design which I have no problems with, they might not be needed in a pistol but I can use a softer alloy which shoots better for me than the straight acww, and the weight and meplat of this boolit is what I was after in the first place, the gas checks just came in the mold design so I roll with them.

Felix lube over the hard lubes has proven itself well in my experience, and the barrel is a LOT easier to clean so that shows it's working, and I think Felix is part of the 1/3 smaller group sizes, that and LilGun have stepped out in front of all the H110 loads in that 1100-1200f/s envelope.

[skeettx]

OK here goes, DEER, a cast bullet will whip right through them most of the time.
So why go for the speed if most of the energy exits the animal?
So you load a 255 grain bullet at 950 fps and most of the energy remains in the DEER
Is that OK ? :)
Mike

[44MAG#1]

That statement about pride and haughtiness can go both ways.

[RobS]

Back to the topic here. Unique or the medium burners are not used in the reloading manuals these days like they once were because there isn't as much room for error at the top end and can/do spike in pressure with just a bit more powder. Actually a lot of manuals are scaled down, it's a different world and people will sue because they can........... even if they are morons and don't work up a load but rather go at it max load first time out........KABOOM. The slower burners have more margin to work with and have a more linear pressure curve that isn't so touchy as the quicker powders.

USED IN A RUGER BH BISLEY (LARGE FRAME)
With that I use 10.5 grains of Herco with one of my PB LFN style 310 grain designs for nearly 1000 fps and that's where I leave it. 9.5 grains of Herco behind a PB LFN style 345 gives me 950 fps but so, so groups being heavier/longer. 2400 I use to bump velocities to 1100 fps with these two heavies the I switch to Enforcer for up to 1200 fps then H110 after that but I don't have the need 9 out of 10 times.

I don't shoot my 260 grain LFN style design much but either Herco or 2400 works quite well for it.

ANOTHER NOTE: THESE LOADS ARE WITH MY BOOLIT DESIGN AND MY GUN.

[DougGuy]

skeettx it's like this. When you shoot one through and through with a wide flat nose cast boolit, or even with a cast swc, they bleed out both sides and with 1100-1200f/s that boolit will cut a devastating wound channel. That's the benefit of two holing them. It's not the terminal energy that kills them, it's starving the brain of oxygen carrying blood as fast as possible. It does the most damage and they don't run near as far as shooting them with a boolit at a velocity that would make a good personal defense load where you would possibly want to avoid fully penetrating the adversary if an innocent person behind them or on the other side of a wall may become victim of your boolit.

[Jupiter7]

I don't understand the " I need 100's if not 1000's of rounds" to shoot heavy loads accurately comment. Unless we're talking of curing a flinch, recoil happens after I pull the trigger. Follow-up shots, maybe. Never owned a magnum handgun, shot maybe 15 rounds of warm 44mag from a buddy once. Just bought a BH 45, loaded up some lighter stuff, 100 rounds or so. Felt confident enough to go for the heavy stuff, seems like a non issue. Good form and natural ability go a long way in shooting accurately, regardless of caliber. I shoot the heavy loads as good or better than any other handgun/caliber I own. Of course as reloaders we have options and accuracy is at our disposal, you choose your own level of involvement.

[PS Paul]

Some more clarification from the OP has placed things in a little better perspective....

Kinda reminds me of that horrifying "Deer with a .32-20" thread that developed/deteriorated last year. One of our members posted, "hey. Deer ain't bulletproof. They're made of meat". ha ha!!

I believe the OP will be just fine with his plan to load some heavy-hitting .45's with Unique, especially considering his use as a "backup when hunting" load. Good times.

[44MAG#1]

Jupiter7

Just to gauge how I shoot what kind of standing, offhand (freehand) groups can you shoot at 25, 50 and 100 yards on the average. Not your best or worst but on average. say if we go to the range tomorrow and I put up a target at 50 and 100 yards what kind of group can you shoot with your 45 Colt for 6 at each distance.
I am more than interested in knowing the secret

[DougGuy]

USED IN A RUGER BH BISLEY (LARGE FRAME)
With that I use 10.5 grains of Herco with one of my PB LFN style 310 grain designs for nearly 1000 fps and that's where I leave it.


Not to steer the thread but may I ask RobS a .44 question here?

I have the 310gr Lee C430-310-RF gas check in .44 mag, 50/50+2%, my starting loads for that will be 20.0gr LilGun and/or 22.0gr H110. Hoping for 1100-1200f/s with these. Question.. I have some Herco here too, think there is an advantage to trying it? What charge would give that velocity in .44 mag with the 310gr?

[Jupiter7]

Jupiter7

Just to gauge how I shoot what kind of standing, offhand (freehand) groups can you shoot at 25, 50 and 100 yards on the average. Not your best or worst but on average. say if we go to the range tomorrow and I put up a target at 50 and 100 yards what kind of group can you shoot wit
h your 45 Colt for 6 at each distance.
I am more than interested in knowing the secret


I don't think there is a "secret". Just that proper technique and form for shooting a handgun carry over regardless of platform/caliber. Just as important to know what your load and equipment will do. I'll admit, I'm
not a great shot, I've rarely put all shots under 3" at 25yds. My main love for pistols has been from a defensive standpoint. Most of my pistol shootin has been IDPA style shooting, only once I started reloading did I actually start striving for tighter results, casting only exasterbated that
need as I had some growing pains first 200-300 rounds of 45auto I cast and loaded. I'm similar to the OP, I'll read & research, in the end I just do and usually "do" the hard way.

Edit: I hope I didn't seem to dodge the question. I've yet to shoot 45colt at 100yds, couldn't tell ya. I know I can make a 25yd cold bore head shot on an IDPA target everytime. For ME, that's accurate enough. Also, I won't be taking any 100yd shot on a deer with a 4.5" pistol.

[Char-Gar]

I killed my first deer with a handgun in the early 60's when it was almost an unheard of thing. I used Lyman/Keith 452423 which is a 235 SWC for the 45 ACP. I used 4.5/Bullseye and a Colt Gold Cup autopistol. The load was a paltry 800 fps, but it gave through and through penetration and dead deer. I chose the pistol because I was at the peak of my Bullseye match shooting and I could shoot it very well.

If doesn't take a super whiz bang hot shot magnum to kill a deer. A nice 45 caliber hole made by a bullet with a big meplat is plenty good. So killing a deer is no big trick.

What is a big trick is hitting the deer in the right spot. I don't mean somewhere near the right spot, I mean the right spot. That is not a skill easily acquired. One big fly in the ointment is most folks can't judge the distance to a deer under field conditions with any great precision. There is also the big temptation to "give it a try" anyway even though the deer is beyond the self imposed limits.

Anyway...I have grown quite tired of this discussion and it is time for bed. I don't suspect I will pick this thread up again. I don't think there is anymore I can say, that I have not already said.

[RobS]

Not to steer the thread but may I ask RobS a .44 question here?

I have the 310gr Lee C430-310-RF gas check in .44 mag, 50/50+2%, my starting loads for that will be 20.0gr LilGun and/or 22.0gr H110. Hoping for 1100-1200f/s with these. Question.. I have some Herco here too, think there is an advantage to trying it? What charge would give that velocity in .44 mag with the 310gr?

Doug:
With a 310 grainer you are not going to get to 1100 or 1200 fps with 44 mag 36K psi pressures with Herco; it's just a bit slower than Unique. I would think around 850-900 fps maybe 950 fps with Herco and the Lee WFN 310 grain boolit would put you at the top side of the pressure limit. Start with 8.5 grains for around 800 fps and work up is my suggestion. I would double check some reloading manuals.

[USSR]

OK here goes, DEER, a cast bullet will whip right through them most of the time.
So why go for the speed if most of the energy exits the animal?
So you load a 255 grain bullet at 950 fps and most of the energy remains in the DEER
Is that OK ? :)
Mike

Huh? "...most of the energy remains in the DEER"? Where is this mysterious energy force? Energy is nothing more than a mathematical calculation, and never killed a deer in the whole history of mathematics. What kills deer and other critters is shutting down the electrical circuit system (CNS) or a rapid loss of BP caused by massive tissue damage and severing of arteries and blood vessels. Having a bullet completely transverse a deer is much more destructive than having the bullet remain inside the deer.

Don

[DougGuy]

Doug:
With a 310 grainer you are not going to get to 1100 or 1200 fps with 44 mag 36K psi pressures with Herco; it's just a bit slower than Unique. I would think around 850-900 fps maybe 950 fps with Herco and the Lee WFN 310 grain boolit would put you at the top side of the pressure limit. Start with 8.5 grains for around 800 fps and work up is my suggestion. I would double check some reloading manuals.

Ok thanks for that, I will just stick with LilGun and H110. Didn't hurt to ask! :)

Edit: I doubt I will need it but I do have nice old Hercules 2400 as well, it would work in that reduced pressure/reduced velocity zone between Herco and H110.

[newton]

Have you tried loading 250 or 255 grain boolits up around 1300 fps? You can do that with Herco or Blue Dot pretty easily; can probably get really close with Unique. Don't know why you'd need or want heavier unless you're hunting bison.

ETA: I forgot to mention, 1300 is with a 7.5" barrel.

No, I have not tried. I do have Herco and know its a tad slower than Unique. I used it a while back when I could not find Unique and just had to load a little more based on Unique data. Well, that and the advise of others on here.

But those were medium to light loads. I don't find any data on it for the heavier end of the scale.

[newton]

Doug, it is a 4 5/8" NMBH. It for sure can handle the higher end loads. I heard about Lil gun, but do not know what else I would use it for.

[newton]

I think I got a good understanding now of Unique. It makes sense about the data and the lack of it. I will just have to make sure I am not pushing it to the max, or using it over and over in the cases. I think I will limit it to 10, error on the light side of it, with the 300 grain projectiles. And around 11 on the 240-250 grain ones. I know that the gun can handle those loads, and while they might not be the top end of the scale, I am willing to bet they will work for what I am wanting to do.

If I find that I like the boom, and plan to use it for more than backup, then I'll look into the slower powders. But who knows. I have not loaded any yet, and the next time I'm in the store I might see a can of those slower powders and just pick it up because.

[44MAG#1]

It would be interesting to see how the loads do at 25, 50 and 100 yards from the bench and offhand too.

[DougGuy]

newton please find yourself some different powder. I never say anything to guys that want cowboy loads or just want to plink but 10.0gr of Herco and a 260gr LSWC GC was right dangit snappy, and Unique is even faster than that. 11.0gr of Unique scares me even in a BH. You are right on the edge of spikiness at 10.0gr and maybe across the not so good part of the line with 11.0gr. Unique can be very unpredictable when you get near the top end of it. It's a cowboy powder in .45 Colt and best left at that.

The traditional .44 mag powders can be used to great success in +P .45 Colt, but the most widely used has been H110/W296 (which is the same exact powder) for max pressure loads and 2400 in the slightly less velocity loads. I went to LilGun because it is NOT SAFE to download H110 below minimum recommended charge weights, I was looking for an accurate, less than max, 1100ish f/s load for hunting and it worked a charm.

If you want to take that BH into the Ruger Only zone, use 22.0gr of H110 behind that 300gr boolit. That one will turn the gun sideways in your hand and you won't shoot many of them in a session so in effect it's cheap to shoot. 18.0gr of 2400 behind the 300gr slug is a handful. 20.0gr of LilGun is right nice all the way around and accurate.

[newton]

Ok, Ok... I will look around for different powder. I guess if nothing else one of my fellow re-loaders can benefit from a partially used can.

I just do not like to have a lot of different powders laying around. I like to keep things simple. This will be the first time I have pushed loads to near max. Usually I stay well below max, even when I have loaded jacketed rounds. Well, one time I did get near max with a .243 and man was it loud.

When I get my loads up I will do some shooting and show results. I am not sure if 100 yards is even something I would do, but I am not against doing it for the heck of it. Not sure what it would show anyone, except that its a heck of a long ways to shoot a 4 5/8" gun. lol

[newton]

Doug, been reading up on LilGun and some say its temp sensitive, like cold temp sensitive. You messed with it much in the changing temps? I would be using it in the up coming months, but then also later on in the winter.

[44MAG#1]

Tuesday morning I shot a 45/8's Super Blackhawk 44 Mag offhand at 200 yards and no 100 yards isn't far for a 45/8's 45 Colt. It may be far in your mind but not for the gun.
Remember it has more to do with the operator than to do with the barrel length.
if you keep your sight alignment with as near perfect trigger control the gun can do it. Whether we are is another story.
Next get barrel length as a limiting factor out of your mind. If you can shoot you can shoot if you can't you can't. Not anything to do with PRIDE or HAUGHTINESS but it is mechanical and/or MENTAL .
You will find that out.
Someone that CAN "shoot" can shoot better with an average load accuracy wise than someone who CANNOT "shoot" can with a top accuracy load when it comes to offhand. I've seen people who can do extremely well on a sandbagged bench set up do just the opposite when standing offhand or from a makeshift rest.
Remember just you, your gun and your ammo.

[Char-Gar]

When I ploughed new ground or walked a new path, I would listen to those who had done it multiple times before me. I never though their experience made them prideful or haughty. Knowledge derived from experience is to be respected and not mocked.

[RobS]

I am once again going to attempt to load my Ruger with some hotter loads in anticipation of hunting season approaching. I was gathering information last year, but never went ahead with the plans...especially when the powder availability ran dry around here.

Normally I just load normal, light plinking, loads. In fact, these will be probably the only box I will ever load which is what prompts my question. Well, these and another box of heavier ones probably.

So I have been looking around and most of the time H110 and W296 come in at the forefront. 2400 and 4227 are close behind also. But in all honesty with only loading 100 of these rounds, and not using any of the above mentioned powders for anything else, I have a hard time deciding to track down and buy a pound of one of these.

I do have Unique on hand. But the "heavy" loads with it usually stop at 250 grains. However, I just ran across a place where someone posted some pictures from Hogdons #26 manual. Low and behold, Unique is listed in almost all the loads for the Hercules(Alliant) powder section, all the way up to 325 grains.

1. So my curiosity is why its not listed in the newer manuals or data available? Is it just not real good, or one of those situations where real close attention is critical and no room for error? I know that the faster powders have faster pressure spikes and wondered if that's the only reason for them not being included in the more recent data.

I would like to be able to use the Unique I have on hand. Or even the Herco(I've used it in place of Unique with some slight load modifications). I won't really use any of the Hogdons powders for anything else and 2400 would be the only one I might use in other loads, but it would be minimal.

2. Anyone have experience with the heavy Unique loadings?


Geesh this thread was asking about different powders for upper end Ruger 45 Colt loads and why Unique isn't as widely published any longer with the heavier cast boolits. That is it...........nothing more nothing less and now we have twice as many post about shooting potential and who can do this or that at whatever distance..........who's cares what you can do with whatever load. Stick to answering the original posters questions and be done with it or move on with life and keep on, keeping on. Heck, maybe even start your own thread about shooting potential with whatever load floats your boat.

[newton]

Cabin fever. lol. Gets us in the dead of winter and in the dead of summer. Only the absolute die hards are out shooting at these times, the rest of us are itching for better temps to get out. Drives a guy nuts!

[Char-Gar]

Geesh this thread was asking about different powders for upper end Ruger 45 Colt loads and why Unique isn't as widely published any longer with the heavier cast boolits. That is it...........nothing more nothing less and now we have twice as many post about shooting potential and who can do this or that at whatever distance..........who's cares what you can do with whatever load. Stick to answering the original posters questions and be done with it or move on with life and keep on, keeping on. Heck, maybe even start your own thread about shooting potential with whatever load floats your boat.

You chide others for not answering the original post, but how is that answering the original post. Kinda like a double standard, yes! If you are not going to stick to the original question, then be done with it or move on with life and keep on, keeping on. Heck maybe even start your own thread about the frustrations of thread drift or whatever load floats your boat. Wait, that sounds familiar.

Sorry Rob, the hypocrisy was just to evident to take a pass. It was a 2 inch putt! I do so love irony.

[DanWalker]

I've tried Unique with several different weight bullets, and found it inferior accuracy wise to Red dot in light/medium loads, and 2400 in hotter loadings. I took a load of 250 grain boolits over 18.5 grains of 2400 to Africa last summer, and everything I shot with it died SUDDENLY

[44MAG#1]

First off he was given load data from Lyman's 49th edition on a ruger load for a 325 gr bullet which would be safe for a 300 gr. He already knew that load data for heavies with Unique was scarce. This would have given a dense individual like me the idea that that powder wasn't a good choice.
I've used Unique with the heavies and that is okay for a low powered load. It most certainly wasn't a choice that I thought was good.
I have even used deep seated 340 and 360 gr bullets in a 45 Colt that had the case crimped over the ogive with a reduced load of H110 and with 2400 . Worked just fine too. But to me a heavy was intended to take power to a higher level so dropped that line of experimentation.
The load I mentioned with an RCBS 270 SAA bullet and 19 gr 2400 is a good load that will shoot well and still not beat one up and will at least nudge 1100 fps.
If I remember correctly he was given data by others too.
So on and so forth.

[DougGuy]

Doug, been reading up on LilGun and some say its temp sensitive, like cold temp sensitive. You messed with it much in the changing temps? I would be using it in the up coming months, but then also later on in the winter.

I haven't worked with LilGun in cold weather like teens but I could see where a given powder would be described by it's known properties. Like some are position sensitive in the case and shoot differently when up against the boolit and away from the flash hole.

If I hadn't tried LilGun for my slightly below Ruger Only pressures, I would have used 2400. It's pretty forgiving until you get to pushing it to a tad above the max, next thing you know it's time to pull the cylinder out of the gun and beat a case out of the chamber. I switch to H110 before that time comes.

I think we are both looking at about the same type hunting with the same caliber and boolits, same barrel length, same distances. I take a surprising number of deer out of my treestand from them walking right up under it, hence the short barreled revolver. I like the wide meplat boolits, and the Lee designs in .44 and .45 are excellent on game. When the alloy is a little on the soft side, you might even see a little expansion out of it depending on how big the deer is but you are not likely to recover one in the deer we got here, go right through them.

There is something to be said about the wide meplat cast boolit, the shape of the nose causes it to be very destructive on tissue, even if it doesn't expand. Hellified wound channel, they bleed out quick when the boolit is put all the way through them and now you got a serious wound on both sides of the animal. Also, there is a known optimum velocity for these in the 1100-1200f/s range because that's where the wound channel is most horrendous. That's what I finalized my hunting loads on. For hog, same boolit, slightly harder alloy, and slightly higher velocity.

I have two loads, one boolit design in two different alloys, in .45 Colt that I can rely on out to 50yds give or take a bit. I found myself wanting to push out a little farther than 50yds, so I have basically carried the same method of thinking over to my 7 1/2" SBH and again, same Lee WFN GC boolit, in two different alloys, same prospective boolit performance, but now I will just carry the longer barrel when I go to a tree or a hunting spot that has more open shooting lanes, and greater possible distances.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to push my Rugers just as hard and violently as I could. The two boolits on the left in this photo are (were) 340gr SSK cast very hard, they were recovered after penetrating close to 36" of seasoned oak firewood. This was me, ehh 20yrs ago, (they were recovered 20yrs ago, I went and dug them up for the photo..) and your posts remind me a LOT of me, back then. Nothing wrong with it really, just I had to go as far as that gun would go with the loads.

The two boolits on the right in this photo, are current. They are dropped from the Lee C452-300-RF mold, and they represent the shooter/hunter I am today, putting a little thought and learned education to work, picking a load that shoots well, fits the gun and barrel well, and has an excellent performance record on the animals I will hunt with them, deer and pig. I don't know how or even if it important, but I like them in softer alloy and slower for deer, harder alloy and a bit faster for pig. I am doing the same thing with both guns, a 4 5/8" .45 Colt Vaquero, and a 7 1/2" .44 magnum Super Blackhawk.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg.html)

I'd like to thank the big bore guys on this forum, for helping me "formulate" this approach, it is by their posts and discussions that I saw good reason to pursue this. 44man, TXGunNut, RobS, there are a few others too that I can't name right off, I'm sure I will think of them when I finish this post..

newton I hope your time here will lead to the same kind of experience you certainly are at the right place for it.

[DanWalker]

I load 6.5 grains under either a 454424 (250 grains) or a LEE 300 RNFP. Either boolit just sizzles right through deer sized critters. Hogs can't stop them either...

[newton]

Doug, I've learned a lot from those guys too. They can attest to the multitude of questions I have asked them on threads and through pm's. I owe a great deal of gratitude to this forum and while I have not give back as much as its given me, it's the only one I've given as much too.

Great group of guys here and great atmosphere. I recommend to all who contemplate casting. I know I got a LONG ways to go, but I know with the help of guys on here I'll get there.

[newton]

I'm a firm believer in slow, heavy boolits. I started a project that took 500+ in a muzzleloader to velocities that you can almost see the boolit. But after recovering the boolits I knew it would say good night to anything it touched.

I do find that heavy unique loads are not so accurate. Mostly why I plink with light loads. I know the gun I have is capable of more is the only reason to push the envelope. Nothing more.

[newton]

I load 6.5 grains under either a 454424 (250 grains) or a LEE 300 RNFP. Either boolit just sizzles right through deer sized critters. Hogs can't stop them either...


Unique?

[RobS]

Here is another site that has load data in it for 45 Colt + loads and I would look closely at the ones that are by the manufactures, far right column under "source". There are other nice loads on there too but use with caution.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Colt%20%20P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

[bigboredad]

Wow that helps a lot as usual another fine tip from the the legend in his own mind thanks for all your wisdom char gar

[RobS]

And some standard 45 Colt loads but there is a sprinkle of some that others have posted which could be a bit higher pressure than 14K but definitely doable in a large frame Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Colt&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

[RobS]

A nice article and load data that I believe 44MAG#1 mentioned regards to the RCBS 45-270-SAA (a design I shot the heck out of quite some time ago but have since move on from):
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[DanWalker]

nah,
newton he was answering my question 6.5 grs of Red Dot under a 255 gr RNFP.
I wanted to try some Red Dot I started some at 5.0 grs seems I might have started too low, or maybe not depends on how these 50 fire when I get the chance.
I have been shooting and suggesting this Red Dot load for several years now. It has worked great in all the 45 colt chambered handguns and rifles we have tried it in. On animals the size of deer, out to 100 yards, I just haven't found anything that kills any better. the boolits just zip right through, breaking bones along the way, and punching a half inch hole. The blood leaks out, the air rushes in, the critter tips over. End of story. My wrists pop and my hands hurt when it rains now. No doubt that several years of hammering them with hard kicking magnum handgun loads, have contributed to this. I have been told that even John Linebaugh has trouble sometimes, due to this. Magnumitis sure sells a lot of guns, but I don't see it killing critters one whit better or quicker than the old pokey loads from the mundane cartridges...

[TXGunNut]

Unique is an awesome powder for plinking loads or a BP equivalent load in the 45 Colt. Much more than that or with heavier boolits and a slower powder is indicated. I use 296 under a RD boolit of around 300 grns. It's not a max load by any means, just all I care to shoot.
On the rounds down range angle I have fired literally hundreds of thousands of rounds in competition and practice and I still find it necessary to practice with my hunting revolver, even though it is "plan B". I figure that just like on the street, being good with your backup is very important. If you need it, there can be no room for error or fumbling around. It takes thousands of rounds to be able to quickly fire a handgun to good effect. There are no shortcuts. It takes hundreds of rounds every year to maintain a reasonable skill level with a handgun. Not every practice session needs to be with magnum ammo but you need to be able to draw, cock, aim & deliver a well-aimed boolit in a smooth, continuous motion and that takes thousands of rounds of shooting.
Even then, middle age can creep up on you. Guys I shoot with think I'm still a pretty good pistol shot; I know better. I'm still good to 25 yds, maybe 50 yds with my trusty RBH but as long as my rifle works and the piggies run the right way it doesn't matter.

[leftiye]

I suggest that we maybe try to be helpful. 300 grain lee, 325 Lyman FPGC. I like 300 MP (alliant powder). If it burns well at the lower pressures 1680 could be exciting. Is very accurate at less than full charge in 454. Which same will repeatedly hit targets 1/4 the size of a gallon milk jar at 100 yards with my Raging Bull 454. No reason a .45 LC Blackhawg wouldn't do well also. Maybe PM 44Man, he does lots of this kind of work (long range big bore).

1200 to 1300 fps is up there as pertains to .45 LC data. So, I don't see it being in the mild, fast burning powder territory. Definitely step up to magnum powders. Also step up to 12 to 1300 fps loads as being most effective. 255 gr Lee SWCPB, 16.5 grs blue Dot 1250 fps, accurate in my Arminius (didn't blow it up neither).

[bigboredad]

I have burned a bunch of unique and universal with 300gr and 340gr bullets with 9gr. It does in the neighborhood of 950 is quite accurate and easy on the shooter and gun. As long as you aren't trying for top end loads you'll be fine with unique and surprised at how the big bullets will penetrate and the slower velocity. If a 255gr bullet will take deer pigs and all sorts of game so can the bigger bullets at 950fps

[DanWalker]

If a 255gr bullet will take deer pigs and all sorts of game so can the bigger bullets at 950fps

Words of wisdom!
The LEE 300 grainer, loaded over 6.5 grains of Red Dot is a pure JOY to shoot in ruger blackhawks, and is superbly accurate. It'll knock a prairie dog around like a rag doll when I can hit them. It just smokes right through antelope and hogs with ease.

[DougGuy]

Dan what you reckon the velocity of that load would be with the Lee? I'm going to try that, my shooting buddy has a can of red dot and I have more of the Lee boolits. Mine go around 320gr with GC, 6.5gr still good with that much boolit?

[bigboredad]

The walker load is a excellent load and for me I really like it with the 300gr bullets the accuracy at 50 yards will amaze you and you can shoot all day without getting beat up

[DanWalker]

Dan what you reckon the velocity of that load would be with the Lee? I'm going to try that, my shooting buddy has a can of red dot and I have more of the Lee boolits. Mine go around 320gr with GC, 6.5gr still good with that much boolit?

Mine weigh about the same. If memory serves me, they are running around 900-950 fps.

[DanWalker]

Cool! I have noticed the sooty cases below 6.0 grains also. I settled on 6.5 as a good load because it is where I found the best accuracy, softest recoil, and highest velocity. Go above 6.5 and recoil starts to get sharp. I load 18.5 grains of 2400 if I want more pop than what 6.5 grains of Red Dot gives me. The 2400 load is the load I took to africa in my win94. I honestly wish I would've used the 300 grain LEE boolit instead. All my critters i shot with the 454424 died in short order, but I only got exits on the warthog. The other boolits were recovered under the skin on the offside of the animal. The skin on those african animals is incredibly tough and elastic.

[newton]

So Dan, you take a 45 colt to Africa to hunt with?

I am planning an elk hunt next fall. I had really thought about getting a 45-70, but now I'm almost convinced myself to get a 45 colt lever. I wanted something light and quick, and the model 92's I've been seeing fit the bill.

[newton]

Looks like you got a shooter sgt.

[RobS]

Here you go newton:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[DougGuy]

That's a REAL good dichotomy of leverguns in .45 Colt caliber. I had asked in another thread about some of the same things and got some load data (lol) in exchange for my time..

So, Paco is saying that for Ruger Only loads in the 30,000ish range like what we would shoot in a Blackhawk, the Rossi, Winchester, Browning, or Marlin would be good to go. For loads 40,000 and beyond, he says late production Rossi guns will take that and then some but that the others won't last with those kind of pressures. And we are only talking specifically about Model 92s and no other actions.

Between the SAAMI specs being different for .44 pistol and .44 rifle, I have pretty much ruled out choosing this caliber in a levergun. I had 94AE trappers in both .44 magnum and .45 Colt and I wasn't necessarily impressed with the fit and finish of either, and the .45 kept shooting the rear sight wedge out of it's notch and also had to have a piece of square stock laboriously fit in notches I had to hand file in the barrel and magazine, so I could run the barrel band screw through it and retain the forend from migrating toward the front sight. The other thing that the Winchester did was make some very annoying noises in the woods from the lever.

My choice this time around will likely be the Rossi.

Thanks RobS for that link, well worth reading start to finish..

[RobS]

As I read it Modern 92s 50K range and the Modern 94s and Marlins 40K

" So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.

So I would put the very upper limit on pressure in these fine model 94 Winchester and Marlin leveractions at 40,000+ cup...the same as the 30-30 class of top pressures for deer, black bear, and hogs. Use top 45 Colt loads for hunting and such, but lesser loads for fun, small game, pests, and varmints. They work really well on any size feral dogs or good sized ‘yotes. "

At Ruger Only loads with the right 300 or 340 grain boolit and H110 a person can run 1600 to 1650 fps.

"300 grain WFN/LBT 24/H110 32,500 CUP 1705 fps
340 SSK/WFN 24/H110 33,000 CUP 1680 fps"

[newton]

Yea, I saw that article a while back. Kind of what made me settle in on getting one. Just kind of makes sense. I have wanted a big bore rifle, other than my muzzle loader, and just always thought the 45/70 would be the way to go.

But it seems logical, and according to the experience of others, that a 45 colt rifle could run up to the normal range most 45/70 loads are. Well, in the 300 grain boolit range at least.

[DanWalker]

So Dan, you take a 45 colt to Africa to hunt with?

I am planning an elk hunt next fall. I had really thought about getting a 45-70, but now I'm almost convinced myself to get a 45 colt lever. I wanted something light and quick, and the model 92's I've been seeing fit the bill.
Here is the thread about it. Just reread it, and it brought back some great memories.....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?135266-Africa!!