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JCherry
10-10-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm almost there but having trouble, need some adult supervision.

I'm using three wraps of the Mead tracing paper suggested by Dust Collector on the Lyman 301618 bullet of straight WW (172 Gr.), oven tempered to a hardness of over 20 BHN. The naked bullet is sized to .302. The three wraps of paper brings the diameter to .310 after it's dried. I'm then sizing with Lee case lube (after lube has dried) in a .308 sizing die which results in a finished patched bullet diameter of .309. There appears to be a tiny "springback" of the paper. Load is 43 grains of 4895 Surplus powder, velocity is 2500 fps. Rifle is an 1903 Springfield (09/18).

I'm wrapping the paper right on the ogive so there should not be any direct contact with the rifleing unless the rifleing cuts through the paper. I've tried it with Lee case lube, JPW, and L-Alox. The best luck I've had so far seems to be with a good coating of L-Alox over a bullet patched up to the ogive.

The bullet is seated so it's base is about a tenth of an inch below the junction of the shoulder and case neck. The paper covered ogive is a tight fit into the origin of the lands.

It seems the first several shots go very well then I start getting some very fine leading in the forward part of the barrel and accuracy disappears. The leading is not any real problem and comes out with just a couple of tight patches. Actually I can't see the leading I only feel it when I run a tight patch through the barrel and feel it become more resistant as I push it through the barrel.

Is the .302 diameter of the unpatched bullet too tight to where the rifleing cuts through the paper and lets powder gas cut into it? Would a .301 diameter be less likely to lead the barrel as it's riding on top of the lands as opposed to perhaps being slightly cut by the lands?

It seems that if I patch to the leading groove on the bullet I get the same kind or worse leading.

Is the base of the bullet too deep into the neck so the powder gas burns or "gets under" the paper?

Any help from experenced .30 cal paper patched bullet shooters is appreciated.

Have Fun,

JCherry

The Dust Collector
10-10-2007, 10:09 PM
JCherry, First a few questions for you. #1 Are you seating your bullet to touch the lands or are you off and if so how much? #2 Are you using a push through sizing die such as LEE or one such as SAECO or Lyman? #3 Have you ever slugged your barrel's bore for it's dimentions! A few things have come to my mind, but please answer these first.
DUST

JCherry
10-10-2007, 11:49 PM
Dust Collector,

#1. Yes, I am seating the bullet into the lands. I can feel resistance on the bolt as it closes and I can see rifleing marks on the paper patched ogive of the bullet when unloaded.

#2. I am using a SAECO sizer for this application. I do have a Lee push through in .309 and I have tried it but it seems to push the patch to the rear slightly exposing a bit of lead at the ogive.

#3. Yes, I have slugged the bore and throat. The bore size is right at .301, the groove diameter is .3085. The throat is a bit worn but not excessively. The throat is large enough that I use .311 sized bullets such as the 311334 in it. The ogive diameter on the 311334 bullet is right at .302 and I have to be careful as that load will "debullet" if I unload a loaded shell.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Have Fun,

JCherry

pdawg_shooter
10-11-2007, 08:35 AM
I have had much better luck using 2 wraps of 16# paper myself. The paper is stronger and stands up better to feeding from the mag, crimping and such. It may be your patch is not making the trip down the barrel intact. I size my 30cals .3015, wrap with 16lb green bar computer paper and let dry over night. I then trim the tails and lube with whatever is handy, most anything will work, but I have had my best luck with White Label BAC. I then size in a .310 die and load. A 50% WW-50% LT in a 300RUM shoots just over a inch, 5 shots, 100yds. I try to seat all my loads into the rifling when possible. This alloy in a 152gr. Lovin style will go over 3400. If you are using a bullet with a long nose riding section make sure it is at least .301 dia. or the patch will not be sliced and will hang on the nose. If the patch does not leave the bullet at the muzzle accuracy sucks. If I can help in any other way e-mail me pdawg_shooter@hotmail.com.

JCherry
10-11-2007, 11:33 AM
Pdawg shooter,

Thanks for the reply. I'll try to find some 16 lb paper, you may have a point there. I'm pretty sure my paper is surviving being chambered. I'm single loading now and I have not crimped these loads.

The load is being seated into the rifleing.

The 301618 bullet and the way I'm currently wrapping it does not leave a long bore riding section. From the confetti I'm getting upon fireing these loads I'm pretty sure the paper is not staying on the bullet.

From your posts it appears you are not familiar with the 301618 bullet. It was designed by Col. Harrison in the early 70's specifically for 30 cal paper patches. In a way it is a Loverin style bullet normally casting at about .303 and designed to be sized down to about .301.

I'll scan a page or two that shows the 301618 bullet and e-mail it to you.

Thanks,

Have Fun,

JCherry

45 2.1
10-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Pardon me for coming in late to this. Here is what you should aim for.

Have the sized slug before patching at or just slightly over bore diameter.
Have the temper suitable for the pressure used. It would be a plus if it would obturate slightly upon firing.
Do not have any part of the patched boolit below the base of the case neck.
Have the front of the patch into the rifling throat so it marks the patch.
Determine your throat diameter and choose a patch paper that will produce a patched diameter from throat diameter to not less than throat -0.0005". You can size the patched boolit down, but I prefer to patch it to the right size instead of sizing it afterward. I have gotten much better accuracy doing this myself.
Lube the outside bearing part of the patch with a decent patch lube. Matthews formula is good (about 55% vaseline, 45% beeswax).
You do not have to patch over the ogive unless the bearing surface of the boolit is too short. The thin patch material and the over the ogive could possibly be some of the problem.

pdawg_shooter
10-11-2007, 12:56 PM
I have tried for years to find a 301618 or better yet a 301620 but no luck. I used standard grooved bullets reduced to the dia. I need. One of my best and most accurate is the 311446. Prefer heavy for caliber bullets but settle for what works best. The 451114 works best in my 45-70 and .458Win. Neither rifle has ever seen a jacketed bullet and most likely never will. I have been playing with PP bullets since the 70s and enjoy it very much.After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

JCherry
10-11-2007, 01:44 PM
45 2.1,

Your points are well taken.

1. My slug is sized to .302, bore diameter is .301. I have the perception that .302 is too large and caused some pretty good leading.

2. The temper of my bullets are 20- 25 BHN. I'm using a SAECO hardness tester. I think my hardness should be about right.

3. The last loads I fired had about a tenth of an inch of the patched bullet below the case neck.

4. The front of the patched bullet is well marked by the rifling throat.

5. Throat diameter is right at .311. I've tried sized diameters from .309 up to .310 which is max diameter with the paper I'm currently using.

6. Lubes I've used so far are L-Alox, JPW and Lee case lube. Will Matthews formula work for high speed .30 caliber bullets? I thought it was more for the slow speed large caliber bullets?

7. I have patched over the ogive and this makes it necessary to seat the bullet a bit below the case neck. When I patched to the first groove, as opposed to patching to the ogive, it exposed lead on the ogive to the rifleing and as stated above I had the perception that this caused quite a bit of leading that was visible at the muzzle and was a bit of a pain to get out. The finished diameter of these bullets was .310.

With your information it looks like my problem is that I'm not filling the throat enough which I would never have done with normal greased bullets. I'll find a thicker patch material and try for a max diameter to fit the throat which should be right at .311. As to not sizing the patched bullet I can see that should also work as when dried these patches are very tight on the bullet. I'll also wrap the patch in such a manner as to preclude having the base below the neck.

Thanks,

Have Fun,

JCherry

pdawg_shooter
10-11-2007, 02:02 PM
When you wrap your paper you should leave enough to twist a "tail" the you will clip off after drying. This protect the base of the bullet from powder gases. I always finish with a final size of the lubed patch. As for lube I have used most anything on hand, even wheel brg. grease. Best so far is White Label Lube BAC. I have 5 loads that the bullet extend below the case neck and the all shoot fine. You might try a slower powder, I get my best accuracy with 100 to 105% load density.

45 2.1
10-11-2007, 02:09 PM
45 2.1, Your points are well taken.

1. My slug is sized to .302, bore diameter is .301. I have the perception that .302 is too large and caused some pretty good leading. Maybe, maybe not. I would try for a throat diameter patched boolit with the base at case shoulder junction and the front of patch adjusted to fit the throat myself engraving the patch into the throat.

2. The temper of my bullets are 20- 25 BHN. I'm using a SAECO hardness tester. I think my hardness should be about right.

3. The last loads I fired had about a tenth of an inch of the patched bullet below the case neck.

4. The front of the patched bullet is well marked by the rifling throat.

5. Throat diameter is right at .311. I've tried sized diameters from .309 up to .310 which is max diameter with the paper I'm currently using. I would try a thicker paper, about 0.0022" or so thick and make two wraps.

6. Lubes I've used so far are L-Alox, JPW and Lee case lube. Will Matthews formula work for high speed .30 caliber bullets? I thought it was more for the slow speed large caliber bullets? I've used it successfully in 6.5 and 7mm loads at higher velocity before. The lube is mainly to keep the patch from becoming really brittle, waterproofing and some lubrication so it doesn't tear when seating.

7. I have patched over the ogive and this makes it necessary to seat the bullet a bit below the case neck. Try adjusting it so it doesn't go below the case neck and still engraves the rifling. When I patched to the first groove, as opposed to patching to the ogive, it exposed lead on the ogive to the rifleing and as stated above I had the perception that this caused quite a bit of leading that was visible at the muzzle and was a bit of a pain to get out. The heavier Lyman slug has a lot of nose unpatched, I don't think that will hurt it. Maybe some lube on it for a test will determine what is going on. The finished diameter of these bullets was .310. A little under throat would be better.

With your information it looks like my problem is that I'm not filling the throat enough which I would never have done with normal greased bullets. Maybe the boolit is perhaps too hard, something to check and experiment with. I'll find a thicker patch material and try for a max diameter to fit the throat which should be right at .311. As to not sizing the patched bullet I can see that should also work as when dried these patches are very tight on the bullet. I'll also wrap the patch in such a manner as to preclude having the base below the neck. I think that will help.

Thanks,

Have Fun,

JCherry

The Dust Collector
10-11-2007, 09:06 PM
Jcherry: 45 2.1 has my full support in both of his seven point statements “ Have the sized slug before patching at or just slightly over bore diameter. Have the temper suitable for the pressure used. It would be a plus if it would obturate slightly upon firing. Do not have any part of the patched boolit below the base of the case neck. Have the front of the patch into the rifling throat so it marks the patch. Determine your throat diameter and choose a patch paper that will produce a patched diameter from throat diameter to not less than throat -0.0005". You can size the patched boolit down, but I prefer to patch it to the right size instead of sizing it afterward. I have gotten much better accuracy doing this myself. Lube the outside bearing part of the patch with a decent patch lube. Matthews formula is good (about 55% vaseline, 45% beeswax). You do not have to patch over the ogive unless the bearing surface of the boolit is too short. The thin patch material and the over the ogive could possibly be some of the problem.”
If the leade of your rifling is slightly worn, so much the better. The leading edge of your patch will gently enter your bore. His point of NOT having the base of your bullet go below the case neck is very important in my opinion as well as the expanding gases upon ignition and before the bullet starts to move will have a detrimental effect on the patch.
The patch thickness may or may not be a problem. I have noted in my own experience that sizing a patched bullet in a Saeco or Lyman type of sizer has a loosening effect on the patch by forcing the patch forward then backwards under much pressure. The single pass die seems to do a much better job of sizing but not loosening ( not 100% of the time though ). I made my reducing die, but I believe that Corbin and RCE make them as well. They more than likely have a mirror polish on their interior as mine has. LEE does not have this mirror finish as the only one that I have has radial tooling marks that drags the patch back as it is passed through. You can’t polish the marks out either with out significantly enlarging the die. In this application the LEE is a poor choice.
The speed of your bullet, 2500 f.p.s. is respectable as well. You may want to experiment with a lesser speed or with a powder of a slower burning rate. ( Seeing that your are using a heat treated bullet of 20 BNH. ) Your bullet at that hardness will not obturate, which characteristic is way different from my soft 30-1 mix that I am using in my 375 H&H at 2000 f.p.s.. As stated in my other posts, my patch comes out as confetti with out leading and with fine accuracy. Once again, I use a RCBS 378-312 BPS bullet, paper patched as cast, lubricated, then passed through my reducing die, lightly lubed again with Imperial sizing die wax, and then loaded just to the base of the case neck over 50 grains of IMR 3031.
One other note, with a 30-1 mix, I have very good penetration and expansion upon impact. A very hard bullet will fragment upon impact with little penetration.
I don’t remember if you stated if you were using your load for hunting or not.
DUST

JCherry
10-12-2007, 11:10 AM
Dust Collector,

Lots of good information, I just cast up another batch of 301618's and will process them along the suggested lines. I've got some 16 lb paper that looks promising.

I'm not planning to use these loads for hunting other than perhaps jack rabbit or coyote. My main goal right now is just to learn about paper patching.

Thanks,

Have Fun,

JCherry