Rifle load for 357magnum

[loadedbutbroke]

From UK

Hello I am wondering if anyone can help with a load to be used in my recently acquired Uberti Winchester 73 with a 24 1/4 inch barrel.

The data I have so far seen is basically for pistol loads. I wish to shoot up to 200 yards and have so far found the loads I have been using too light and inaccurate.

So far I have used a

-158 grn lubricated hard cast flat point (truncated cone?) with 6.4grn unique behind it. OK for 25yards but not terribly accurate.

- 158 grn jacketed flat point (truncated cone?) with 7.8 grn unique a bit better at 50yards than the previous load but in my opinion still under powered and doesn't group

- 158 grn privi partizan jacketed factory RN FP for comparison. A much hotter load which shoots about 10 inches higher than the 7.8 grn unique at 50 yrds. A lot more recoil.

Below is a picture of the spent cases.( Unfortunately I had de-capped the factory before I took the picture) On the left is the 7.8 grn unique cap slightly flattened.The middle is the 6.4 grn unique cap hardly flattened out and the right a couple of the primers from the factory. To my eye the first and middle are not showing enough pressure but the primers on the factory look to me to be over-pressure as the brass cap has flowed around the striker?

77504

Now I have to confess that I am no expert on pistol primers but ask if this is normal as if this was .303 with a rifle primmer I would be worried?

Presumably being a rifle the Uberti should be able to handle a lot more pressure than a pistol so I would be most interested to hear from fellow shooters if I can load up the unique further or should I be looking at a different powder? Vit N320 has been suggested. If I am using the wrong bullets then other suggestions would be most welcome. I have not so far had a leading problem with the hard cast. (however my own cast 155grn SWC do lead the barrel.)

Adrian

[castalott]

Hi Adrian! I am NOT an expert on Win 73's but everything I have read says to keep the power level very low. The original rifle was ,I think, black powder fed. Is your newer model strong enough to take a steady diet of 357's? When I was researching 32-20 loads, one site said to never shoot anything but 32-20 black powder loads in Win 73's as the design is not as strong as modern guns.

That's all I know. More than anything, I just wanted to say 'hi' to my cousin across the sea...Good luck & I'll be watching your thread as I want to learn too.

Dale

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello Dale
Thank you for your kind remarks; I am afraid your cousins over-here feel much disadvantaged when it comes to shooting matters compared to the good old USofA.

I take your point about the strength of the original Winchester but I have always been lead to believe that the modern Italian versions of the 73 are much stronger than the originals. Having shot alongside a pal on Saturday with a Marlin in 357 mag I have to say the feed mechanism on the 73 seems to work much better. In fact his Marlin would not feed my hard cast bullet reloads at all, yet for some strange reason it would feed my reloaded jacketed! For this reason my pal uses jacketed factory which is where I got some rounds to try in the Uberti. I was quite surprised to see what looks to me like over pressure on the factory primers (from either rifle). The thing I am wondering about is the speed of the powder. Unique is I believe fairly slow (the recoil is also relatively light) where as other true pistol powders are much faster presumably because the pressure needs to build more quickly to make the jump and to overcome the disadvantage of the shorter barrel.

I have to confess that I know little about pistol ammunition as I have always reloaded good old fashioned service stuff from .577 down to 6.5mm sometimes black-powder.

It will be interesting to see what other contributors think about the issue of loading up a pistol round for use in a rifle.

Cheers Adrian

[Nobade]

Several of the shooters in our club here use the RCBS 200gr. rifle bullet loaded into 38 spl. cases over 10 gr. 2400 powder for shooting 200M cowboy silhouette. This load works very well in Marlin rifles, and does not show any signs of high pressure. However, you are on your own using it in a '73 copy. I agree that Uberti uses much stronger steel in their replicas than Winchester did in the originals. But it is still a toggle link action, and will likely get loose over time shooting loads like this. But the load does shoot accurately and has enough power to drop the 200M rams, so you are on your own there.

-Nobade

[bobthenailer]

for shooting accuratly at 100 + yards in a 357 mag rifle or pistol the rcbs 200gr gc fn is hard to beat ! you should have no problem getting 2 inch or smaller groups at 100 yards , if your gun and reloads are up to the task
Possibly using Lil gun powder would keep pressures lower with high velocity.

[Scharfschuetze]

Adrian,

I use a 180 grain cast-plain-base-truncated cone boolit in my 24" barrel Marlin 1894 with Hodgdon's Lil'gun powder and Remington small rifle primers for a load that achieves about 1,700 fps (518 mps) and is about a 2 MOA load out to 200 yards (183 meters). I'm traveling right now and don't have access to my loading logs for the exact details of my powder charge or its chronograph results. I don't know if you have access to Hodgdon powder over there in England, but their Lil'Gun does seem to produce high velocity at lower than expected pressures. That might be helpful in your 1873 Winchester replica. If Uberti made it in .357 calibre, then they must expect it to hold up to factory published pressures for the cartridge, but I'm like others that posted above and caution prudence with its toggle action.

For 200 yard shooting I would certainly select a 180 grain or heavier boolit if the rifling twist in your Uberti is fast enough to stabilize it. I'd also, if possible there in England, buy something slower burning than Unique powder for those 357 rifle loads.

[Baja_Traveler]

I was just researching loads using LilGun in my .357 Rossi - common consensus in the posts I found was using a 180 or 200 grain cast boolit over 14gr Lilgun is enough to take down 200 yard Rams in a silhouette match. It appears that LilGun performs best using heavier boolits in the .357, so I found a nice 180gr NOE mold in stock and ordered it up. Should be here in a day or two so I can test it out next weekend.

[loadedbutbroke]

Wow what a response.

I have not had time to digest it all yet but here are a few thoughts/questions.

I think the Uberti should be fine with factory loads after all as Sharf said it has been built and chambered for this round. The toggles should stand up to it after all when you see these guys doing Cowboy action shooting with factory all seems ok. Having said that I don't do rapid fire and will keep an eye on those toggles, thank you for the advice.

Going back to my original post has anyone got a view on this issue of the flattening out of the primmer? The factory one does not look good to me and the ones loaded with unique underpowered. ( The recoil is much sharper with factory)

Could it be that the pistol round (factory) builds up pressure a lot quicker in a rifle than a revolver and this is putting the primer at risk?

I don't know this Lil powder but we can certainly get Hogdon in the UK. I must do some research. In general we only get a limite selection of products over here and then most of the time suppliers are out of stock.

Heavier bullet is a thought presumably jacketed to avoid leading?

Inherently how accurate are these lever rifles? (James Stewart didn't seem to have much trouble!!!!!!)

I suppose my problem is being used to SMLE .303 I might be expecting too much. At 200yrds the SMLE will easily out-shoot the Uberti, with its battlefield sights hand held.

One thing I am going to do is change the back sight on the Uberti as the semi buckhorn is hopeless. In theory this should help to tighten up my groups a bit.

All very useful stuff thank you all for taking the time to respond, I look forward to further thoughts.

Adrian

[13Echo]

The way the primer flows around the firing pin indentation suggests the pin does not fit the block and may be too small in diameter or the pin is improperly shaped or the pin is actually being forced back by the pressure (perhaps due to a weak hammer spring?) with primer flow around the partially retracted or depressed pin. The primer indentations are also very deep which suggests the pin may protrude too far. Just some thoughts.

Jerry Liles

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello Jerry

Well now you have set the cat among the pigeons. (and quite rightly so) I went back and emptied my de-capper tray. All the small pistol primers are there from Saturdays shooting. The thing is I only shot 2 Factory. All the rest went through my pal's Marlin (or equivalent).

77599

See this primer it has even ruptured

77600

These three are top, factory Marlin, Left factory Uberti, right CCI reloaded Uberti.

77601

As you can see the Uberti is striking true unfortunately the Marlin obviously isn't. My problem is I am going to have to tell my pal who donated the brass to me in the first place!

So part of the problem is solved for me anyway. This is a bit like that CSI program we see over here.

The factory is then fine through my Uberti. I must try some at 200yards.

Sorry if I misled you all with my first picture stupid of me, I should have checked better that I had the right caps.

However I will continue in my quest for a good load/powder/bullet etc for the Uberti so all the contributions are very useful and I shall pursue them. Once again many thanks to you all.

Adrian

[phonejack]

In my Rossi, the "slower" the powder , the greater the accuracy.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello again

Great information guys I am much happier about the prospect of loading up my .357 cases and I do want to improve accuracy of the 73; I think I shall experiment as Bill suggests and do as follows

Continue to use the Unique which is fairly slow and up the load in increments up to say 8.8 grn using the jacketed truncated cones, until I reach point where over-pressure starts to show or the cases are full. ( I will not compress the powder)

I have tried to obtain some Lil gun but of course it is out of stock.

I have also looked for the heavier bullet but can only find 158 grn over here for .38 ,so do I need to start casting? If so which mould is best to go for? (I do like Lee)

I have done quite a lot of casting in the past but it is all big stuff in soft lead. .577 etc. I have never had much luck with hard lead. One of the biggest problems seems to be finding some way of testing how hard the lead is you are using, is there a reasonably cheap simple answer?

Leading of the barrel seems such a problem to me even with the hard cast bullets I have from ACE. Do I need to keep the velocity of these below say 1,200 fps?

Adrian

[Janoosh]

First of all, Welcome. As to judging lead hardness frugally, there is a Sticky in the "Lead and Lead Alloys" section about using pencils to ascertain lead hardness. It's a good read, and it works.

[castalott]

Hello my cousin Adrian! I shoot soft lead in my 357 rifle without leading. It is a standard power 38 Special load. I cast a Lyman 358665 cowboy boolit out of 1/2 pure lead and 1/2 wheel weight alloy. I lube with the 45-45-10 ( Alox-Johnson paste wax-mineral spirits) formula and get zero leading in rifles. Revolvers are another story though. The powder charge is book maximum of Winchester 231 for 38 Special.

This load is very accurate. I am a former silhouette shooter and we shoot offhand at painted round discs (Around 3 inches) at 40 yards offhand. The peep sighted Marlin is very capable of 100% hits with our skill level being the determining factor.

My experience with hard lead bullets is poor. Hard lead can lead as bad or worse than soft lead under the right conditions. Now hard lead in full power ( you know- Yipppeeee, yahooo- yyyaaa--wide open type) is essential.

Lead hardness needs to be matched to pressure levels and other things.

Welcome to the school with us...Dale

[castalott]

I just re-read my post & want to clarify something. Hard lead works for me in 308 rifle loads. When I get around to working on full power 357 loads- we'll see.

Just a funny thought- did your cat get it's fill of pigeons? Dale

[Blammer]

you may want to look for some bluedot, it gives good accuracy and velocity out to 100yds for me with the Lee 358-158gr mould.
I'm shooting a Win94 in 357mag.

I don't see really any excessive issues with your primers. A slower powder may help.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/100yd357mag.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/100yd357mag.jpg.html)

here is another load with a 200gr cast and 11gr of ww296

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/100yd207tycerA.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/100yd207tycerA.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

My experience with PB'd cast bullets in several lever actions including 2 different Uberti M73s in .357 is with cast bullets, hard or soft, you will find the best accuracy under 1200 fps using the medium fast burning powders and bullets of 160 or under weight. Suggest you use starting loads as in reliable manuals for the .357 revolver and work up not exceeding the max listed loads looking for accuracy. That is a much better method when searching for accuracy than jumping around with "suggested" loads someone else uses. A Lyman manual is a good place for such loads.

If you want the best accuracy the rifle is capable of with cast bullets at higher velocity then I suggest a GC'd cast bullet withthe GC.

Larry Gibson

[loadedbutbroke]

Yep the cat has done well and the Pigeons are all over the place especially this one. The Gun I had assumed was a Marlin was in fact a Chiappa (Armi Sport) 1892. So my pal probably thinks I am a bit of a p--t. He took the issue of the striker well though and is going to get it looked at.

The replacement back sight turned up for the 73, a Marbles #95. Complete waste of time. It was worse than the Buck-horn already on the rifle and therefore I have returned to sender.

Not been able to make any progress this week on the reloading and don't seem to have any range time availability at the moment. Shooting here in the UK really is a difficult sport to pursue.

However the information cousins have posted is most valuable and I will be working up my loads again soon. Next problem is going to be getting hold of the powder. I don't know how much you guys pay but the Lil gun is £40 a pound. ($60?) assuming it is in stock and I will have a long drive to get it.

[detox]

If you want the best accuracy the rifle is capable of with cast bullets at higher velocity then I suggest a GC'd cast bullet withthe GC.

Larry Gibson

And Linotype alloy

[loadedbutbroke]

The way the primer flows around the firing pin indentation suggests the pin does not fit the block and may be too small in diameter or the pin is improperly shaped or the pin is actually being forced back by the pressure (perhaps due to a weak hammer spring?) with primer flow around the partially retracted or depressed pin. The primer indentations are also very deep which suggests the pin may protrude too far. Just some thoughts.

Jerry Liles

Hi I think the points you make are very valid. Subsequently the rifle (Armi sport) has been fired with home-loads CCI primers but lightly loaded with Bulls-eye. No problem with the primers but the load is a little light.

However I agree the protrusion of the striker should be checked.

Now we had a further thought. The Privi jacketed could well be designed as a pistol load and at that for the larger framed revolvers (S&W L and N frames) because the bullet has to jump and go up a shorter barrel. Maybe a very fast powder is used which causes over pressure in the rifle which in turn is causing a problem with the primer? Or maybe it is a combination of this and a problem with the striker? All I can say is that in my Uberti the recoil is much sharper with the Privi and feels too much.

Adrian

[dragon813gt]

I use two powders for my 357s. W231/HP-38 for light and W296/H110 for full house magnum loads. All loads are w/ in the listed ranges from the manuals w/ all weight bullets. Best accuracy is never near the top w/ one exception. That would be a MP 359640. That is my hunting bullet and I push at almost max. It's plain base and there is no leading. I don't have any leading issues w/ or w/out gas checks. Lube used is White Label 2500+. I have a variety of molds and they all work well.

As for feeding issues. My Marlin has a limit to overall length. I'm not at home to check my notes. But if it's over a certain length it will not feed. This causes me to have to select bullets w/ a certain length nose as well.

I have not found a published load that doesn't perform reasonably well. I don't expect MOA at 100 yards w/ a Skinner sight. But they are well w/in minute of deer which is all that matters :)

[loadedbutbroke]

[QUOTE=dragon813gt;2346689]

As for feeding issues. My Marlin has a limit to overall length. I'm not at home to check my notes. But if it's over a certain length it will not feed. This causes me to have to select bullets w/ a certain length nose as well.

Hello

I too am away at the moment so don't have access to my data. With my pals Armi it will load factory and home loads as long as they are jacketed bullets. Home loads with lead 158grn TC even though it is less than maximum length will not chamber. Neither will un-crimped ammo.

My Uberti on the other hand will seem to take anything even slightly overlong, and in any order or mix. (Lead, jacketed, factory, crimped, slightly crimped, not crimped etc.) fed from the magazine.

If it is of interest I will post my data on the length I reload to and I will measure the diameter of the reloaded lead rounds at the bullet end to see if there is a variation between this and some factory I have now got.

I am afraid I know nothing about Marlins being quite new to this lever gun game, how do they compare chamber wise with the Uberti or original Winchester 73? Could the Armi sport have a tighter chamber and less forgiving feed mechanism?

Adrian

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello again

Not much to report as shooting opportunists are few and far between. However I did shoot last Saturday and got some better results.

7.8 grn Unique with 158grn TC jacketed groups tighter than previous attempts. recoil very satisfactory, much less than Privi factory equivalent. The primer is not completely flattened out and I think the round will easily take a higher load so will try more next time.

6.8 grn Unique with 158grn hard cast lubricated TC. Shot five then put a patch down the bore with a little Brunox. There was a little fouling and a couple of little shiny bits which I take to be lead. (Not big pieces as I have had with home cast .303). group was tighter than before, tried again with some of my 6.4grn loads which are not quite as good but still the same result with the patch. All in all I shot about 30 rounds with little signs of leading. The primers were not flatted out.However i think if I push much faster I will get leading problems

I am getting a little more used to the buck-horn sight but am pretty sure the way to tighten up the groups, apart from improving the ammunition, is to get a better back sight.

[1Shirt]

Hi Loaded, Good thread! I have had the best luck with my 94Win in 357 with the old kieth style 358429 and with 2400 and mag primers. Good accuracy, and would be an adequate deer blt. to 100. Suggest you start with 12 gr. and work up slowly.
1Shirt!

[beefyz]

I would like to share with you something written by one of our respected authors/writers on guns/shooting/handloading, Mike Venturino. In his book, "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West", he discusses all pertinent information re. these types rifles, including your Uberti replica Winchester '73.( the others being Henrys & model 1866s) He discusses the many fine points of these Italian made replica '73s, and while admitting he has never personally fired a Ubertia made 73 in .357, he points out "something the Italians could not possibly improve upon is the basic strength of these lever gun types. With their toggle link type of lock-up, THEY ARE WEAK (His emphasis)............Under no circumstances should any of these replicas be fired with any sort of smokeless powder ammunition except that loaded to handgun pressure levels. And , that also means the handloader must keep his reloads down to the level that the various manuals list for handguns of standard strength".
I would take this precaution to mean stay away from smokeless loads that have been developed specifically for modern day replicas (Win/Marlin '92s & 94s) using .357 rifle loads or .357 max loads developed in stronger revolvers.

[cwheel]

Looking closely at your spent primers, looks like you have the same problem I had with a .357 Martini. Firing high pressure rounds, the primer flowed back through the firing pin hole in the bolt, sometimes locking up the action and puncturing primers. Like your primers, my primers still didn't show the tell-tail square outside dia. one looks for with over pressure rounds. I consulted with folks that know Martini's well and they told me that the firing pin hole in the bolt was designed for a lower pressure round. The fix ended up welding the bolt face, reducing the dia. of the firing pin hole, and turning down the firing pin to a smaller size and all was well. Here is a clue to what size is proper to a .357, if you have access to a high quality .357 revolver, measure the pin and hole in that. Use caution and remember that after welding the bolt face, heat treating has to be re-done to keep it proper. To just weld and use risks a pressure failure, big safety issue. One thing for sure, 98% chance this is the problem. You can keep this from not being a problem with low pressure rounds, and that would be my first option. As a post script, I think it's likely that the same bolt and firing pin is used in several cals. Most likely it isn't a problem until you get to .357 round that is higher pressure. If you need the measurements, I can help with that. Hope this helped,
Chris

[moorman]

Hi Loaded, good thread btw, fellow countryman and .357 owner here.

I have had good luck with Blue dot and jacketed 158gn from privi, I cautiously loaded from 4gn up to 11.5gn for my marlin 1894 and settled on a reasonably accurate but punchy load, around 10.5gn (1485fps), slight flattening of primer but nothing to set the alarm bells ringing.

I managed to consistently get 2"-3"groups @100yrds off bench+bags, with scope, which I was pleased with. Even managed a rabbit with it @60yrds:bigsmyl2:. I think this little gun is capable of more and with that in mind I have bought (2nd hand snip) an RCBS 35-200-FN gc mould, also have a lee double 158gn mould on the way and a Lee Lube'n'size kit. Im also using cast lyman 158gn RN for 25m plinking loads, havent yet found a sufficiently accurate load with these but then I suffer the same restraints as you, limited range time, free time and weather.

At the moment the only powders I have are Alliant Blue Dot and Unique to play with and as for primers, just have to grab whatever I can. Got some Hornady XTPs on the way to try so plenty of legwork to do but all good fun.

Ultimately I want an accurate round for fox and rabbit, a target load for accuracy@100/200yrds?/ 25yrd plinking, then I can ditch the optics and fit a Skinner/Williams Peep.
I bought the rifle for versatile cheap fun with my two sons but this little gun has taken me on a journey of load development, chronographing, barrel slugging, casting, gas checks, cast boolit forum, marlinowners forum, hunting and fun.....I love it! Just a shame its not deer legal here, keep us posted, moorman

[loadedbutbroke]

Hi all,

Wow again, a lot of ideas here, I have been away so have not had the opportunity to look at everything people have commented on. Good to see I am not the only one from the UK who looks at this excellent boolits site.

There are more comments on the issue of the strengths of the mechanism of the 1873. I see a dichotomy for of course the gun is made for .357 and 44 X 40 and 45 long colt all quite powerful rounds in there own right. You will all know more about them than I do.

What i will do when I get the chance is talk to the UK importer of these rifles and check what the manufacturer and they have to say.

In the meantime I might well be shooting again tomorrow and will take some slightly raised load rounds. 100yrds.

I shall keep you posted
Adrian

[robg]

i use 11.5 g 2400 with 195g gas checked bullet 1250fps 2inch groups at 100yards or 13.5g 2400 165g gas checked 1500fps groups well for a med load 8.5g true blue 165g gas checked / sorry bullets from rcbs moulds/havent chronied but i expect 1200fps

[dromia]

The rifle is proofed to 357 specs so any load within that should be safe in that rifle.

I'm currently playing with a Uberti Low wall in .357 magnum shooting out to 200 yrds, I think you are asking a lot from the round to get consistent accuracy at 300 yrds. The boolit choice is key for distance shooting. I am currently using an RCBS 200 gn gas checked boolit cast from range scrap and roof flashing and BHN around 11-12, a hard alloy is not necessary and can be counter productive but getting the boolit to fit the throat/bore/groove of the rifle is.

My go to powder is Vihtavuori N350 for this round worked up to a maximum of 6 gns with this boolit for a velocity of just under 1200 fps, BTW to my mind studying primers is a futile way of gauging pressure it as effective as studying sheep's entrails just a bit more user friendly. I'm also having some success with Ramshot Enforcer powder working up to 9.5 gns for just under 1300 fps. Both of these powders are readily available in the UK.

Seating depth has a big effect on pressures in this cartridge and will be defined by the throat of your rifle.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello again

Progress has been made! Please forgive the length of this post but there is a lot of ground to cover. I have divided it into four parts to try to incorporate all the concerns and suggestions that fellow shooters have made: the question of the strength of the mechanism; the results of my latest shoot; the issue of the primers; and, finally, where I go from here with this gun and load.

Strength of the 1873 Winchester mechanism

People were quite right to raise this as a concern and so I spoke to the importer (to the UK, who are also gunsmiths ). They confirm that the Uberti copies are intended for use with the equivalent factory pistol loads. They (the importers) are also aware that many people do develop their own loads for this rifle and sometimes they overdo it and ruin the rifle by buckling the toggles and, in some cases, bending the frame to such an extent that the side panels will not fit. However you can overload anything if you try hard enough!

For obvious legal reasons they cannot and will not comment on alternative loads for the 73.

Similarly the manufacturer would have to issue a health warning with the 1873 if it was not capable of handling the pistol loads for which it is designed.

However, people do reload for this gun all the time perfectly safely. I believe the fun and skill of reloading is to develop effective safe rounds which need not even be as 'hot' as factory pistol rounds. In fact, I would suggest that some pistol rounds might almost be too hot for the 73 especially if you keep hammering away with them, over time anything will wear with punishment (see Primers below).

By using a much slower powder such as Unique/Lil-gun/2400/N130 I can only see that you are reducing the very fast pressure build-up experienced by using fast powders and factory ammunition and are therefore taking some of the pressure off the bolt mechanism of the rifle (depending on load, of course). In this way, I would suggest higher velocities can be achieved without putting excessive strain on the gun. To look at this in reverse, if you were to take a .303 case and fill it with Bullseye to achieve 2,500fps, the Lee Enfield would probably blow up even though it has a very strong bolt/lug arrangement. I have somewhere seen a graph which demonstrates the difference in pressure build-up between fast and slow powders.

I think the condition of the gun is also very important. My rifle is in very good condition and I inspected the toggle arrangement carefully to see how tight it was; it's like new. On the other hand, another secondhand rifle I looked at had been abused with a fairly loose mechanism which had burrs built up on the edges of the bearing surfaces of the toggles where they meet when fully closed. Further, the left hand toggles were worse than the right, which were rubbing badly on the inside of the side plate where they were flopping about.

Disclaimer. I discuss loads below, some of which may appear to exceed published data. However no one no matter how experienced should rely on these loads without working up there own examples in the approved way. Your gun and your loads are entirely your responsibility


Latest results, reloaded brass with 158grn Jacketed truncated cone. Always Unique powder.

79893

The above picture shows the cases from my last shoot. The three on the left are Privi Factory with 158 grn lead bullets. The recoil from these was easily the sharpest and heaviest of all rounds shot. The primers have not really flattened out but are just beginning to flow. I used these to sight in at 100 yards before starting with the reloads. Fairly accurate.

The next three are 158grn jacketed in front of 7.8grn Unique. Least recoil, accurate; the CCI primer is begining to flatten out; no evidence of the primer starting to flow.

The next three are as before but with 8grn Unique. Recoil slightly up; nice accuracy (got a couple of bulls). The primer is pretty much the same as the lower load.

79894

This picture shows the next three increase in load. The first is 8.2, second 8.4 and third 8.6 Unique. The results are pretty much the same as the previous two loads with no appreciable rise in elevation. There is a slight increase in the flow of the primer. The cases in the picture are, of course, much magnified which I think makes the primers look worse than they really are. Nothing here to worry me at all.

Of the rounds made, I think my preference is for the 8grn as the others show no appreciable improvement in performance. I will keep them, however, to try at 200 yards.

79895

The third picture above shows the bullets I have been using to reload. The first cartrige is the lead Privi. The second my jacketed round referred to above and the third my lead round referred to below.

Incidentally, the cleanup was easy and showed no evidence of unburnt powder. There was a tiny amount of lead showing on the first run through of the patch, I assume from the Lead Privi I used as sighters.


Primers/overpressure

When reloading I have always been very observant when it comes to the condition of the primer after firing. I wish I had not clouded the issue in my earlier posts with details of my friend's gun (the Armi sport) and the problem he seems to be having with the jacketed Privi ammunition. (I think we are all agreed there is something wrong with the striker.) My latest higher loaded rounds do not show any signs of overpressure at the primer. However, the factory Privi 158 hard lead do show the beginnings of the brass case starting to flow into the striker aperture. I conclude from this that the pressure from the factory load is greater than the pressure from the home loads which are shooting well at this range.

Of course, there could be other factors affecting the result, for example the thickness of the primer material; how deeply the primers are set. Possibly the Prvi primers have moved back a little even though they are painted in (all that red which makes it hard to see well in the photos), etc.

Development

I now feel quite happy with my jacketed loads - for the time being anyway - but will test further and, if necessary, try another powder, possibly the Lil-gun

For my hard cast commercial lead bullets (158grn) I have found 6.8grn to be pretty good so I am going to load at 6.6grn as I am slightly concerned about leading. Unfortunately I have no way of measuring the velocity but my RCBS reloading book reckons about 1,300fps with a semi wad cutter at this load (working it out from the data provided, as near as I can) for a .357 mag rifle. More testing to be done.

Next, of course, is casting my own which I have tried but have had problems with hardness of the lead but, following a helpful post earlier on, have now obtained the relevant pencils to start to work out what lead I have got. I also need a heavier bullet, I think, so another mould etc. is going to have to be sourced.

Getting decent range time is still a problem and I am aware that I need to test the grouping of the rounds to be sure I am achieving accuracy. The last time I shot the hard cast lead I was achieving a reasonable group at 25 yards about 2"-3" from a rest with the original buck-horn sight.

I hope I have covered all the points that fellow shooters have raised and look forward to your comments.

Adrian

[robg]

bevel base lead do tent to be innacurate compared to flat base bullets. gas checked lead dosnt need to be very hard to shoot well

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello Dromia

I think we may have corresponded before on the Victorian Rifleman over another straight-sided if not slightly larger round, the .577 Snider. Forgive me if I have the wrong Pukka Bundhook.

Thank you for your thoughts on this cracking little .357 round that I am just getting to grips with. Your post and my last one must have crossed as it took me so long to get it out. A shame in a way because we cover some of the same ground. However, below is my response to some of your points.


[QUOTE=dromia;2356852]The rifle is proofed to 357 specs so any load within that should be safe in that rifle.
Agreed


I'm currently playing with a Uberti Low wall in .357 magnum shooting out to 200 yrds, I think you are asking a lot from the round to get consistent accuracy at 300 yrds.
Again I agree;I think I was being a little overambitious with 300 yards but, now that I understand the round better, I will make 200 yards my goal (a distance I tend to shoot a lot at Bisley) for which, as you say, a heavier bullet would be better.



BTW to my mind studying primers is a futile way of gauging pressure it as effective as studying sheep's entrails just a bit more user friendly.
Here, I am afraid, we disagree. Mind, I have never studied a sheeps' entrails to check your comparison!! Is this some sort of Scottish practice? I'll ask the wife (from Dunfermline ).

I have always been led to believe the primer can tell you a lot and be a good indicator of impending problems. I have always paid attention to it with my home loads and have not been disappointed yet. On the other hand, small pistol primers due to their size would appear to more difficult to read than large rifle.


Seating depth has a big effect on pressures in this cartridge and will be defined by the throat of your rifle.
I see your point here but with the 1873, unlike the Low wall, you are restricted in the overall length of the load by the loading mechanism. I already have my bullets seated out as far as practical. Also I am of course restricted to flat points.

Kind regards
Adrian

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello robg



bevel base lead do tent to be innacurate compared to flat base bullets. gas checked lead dosnt need to be very hard to shoot well

I take your point. Unfortunatly the commercial bullets in my picture on my last post were the best I could get at the time. Is your concern that the beveled bullets do not obdurate as well as flat base?

I am going to try for a new mould for a heavier boolit as others are recomending and take this flat base issue into account.

I have never had much luck with gas checks. Either sourcing them or fitting them. Which combination of bullet and check do you think best and where do you get your GC's?

Adrian

PS I only have the very basic Lee sizing kit and use Luiquid Alox.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello excess650


If you're concerned about pressure excursions, avoid powders that burn more quickly than 2400. Try 4227, H110/WW296, AA1680, etc. I would only load Unique for moderate loads and faster burning powders for light loads.[/QUOTE]

I agree and now having had more experience with this small round and having gone through all that you will see in my last post I am going to slow up my powder. Quite a few seem to use 2400 and otheres this Lil-gun. N130 has also been recomended to me.

In a way it is a shame that Uniqe was recommended to me in the first place but I suppose we all have to start somewhere!

Regards
Adrian

[robg]

hello loaded i cast my bullets using rcbs 158 swc gc & 180 rcbs sil mold gc .use hornaday gcs most shops can get them or use midway.just use a lee 10lb pot add some led free solder to scrap lead. about 300 an hour . its addictive!

[robg]

i use same lee sizer & lee liquid lube . itworks well & seats gas checks fine

[dromia]

Here, I am afraid, we disagree. Mind, I have never studied a sheeps' entrails to check your comparison!! Is this some sort of Scottish practice? I'll ask the wife (from Dunfermline ).

I have always been led to believe the primer can tell you a lot and be a good indicator of impending problems. I have always paid attention to it with my home loads and have not been disappointed yet. On the other hand, small pistol primers due to their size would appear to more difficult to read than large rifle.

Kind regards
Adrian

Well I wish you continued good luck using primers as a pressure indicators especially if you are working up to near maximum loads, if so then you are an accident waiting to happen.

There are so many variables in relation to primers and so many reasons for the cause of the condition of fired primers other than pressure, compounded by the fact that there is no constant base line, means that it is a very dubious and potentially dangerous way of assessing a rounds pressure.

At best a primer condition may tell you that there is something wrong but that need not necessarily be pressure.

Still it is your gun, your ammunition and your life to do with as you will so long as it doesn't impinge on others.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello dromia

Thank you for your comments


There are so many variables in relation to primers and so many reasons for the cause of the condition of fired primers other than pressure, compounded by the fact that there is no constant base line, means that it is a very dubious and potentially dangerous way of assessing a rounds pressure.


At best a primer condition may tell you that there is something wrong but that need not necessarily be pressure.

I agree with you that there are other variables in relation to primers and if you look at some of my other posts I do acknowledge this.


Of course, there could be other factors affecting the result, for example the thickness of the primer material; how deeply the primers are set. Possibly the Prvi primers have moved back a little even though they are painted in (all that red which makes it hard to see well in the photos), etc. And to this should add the condition of the striker the striker aperture etc as detailed elsewhere on the thread.

The point I was trying to make albeit a bit clumsily was that pressure could be the cause of the primers distorting and therefore be showing a potential problem.

If I have given the impression that I would only rely on the primer as an indicator of over-pressure then I am sorry, however I hoped that other detail of the way I worked loads up would have indicated how cautious I am when it comes to reloading and building up a round for which there seems to be little published information for rifle as opposed to pistol.

I think the most dangerous thing would be to ignore what the primer is telling us for what ever reason.

Kind regards

Adrian