4198 in a 45LC

[hivoltfl]

My shooting partner is thinking of trying 4198 in his T/C 10 inch 45LC, He was thinking of starting loads on par with close to max 4227 loads, any body have any experiance with this?

Rick

[mag_01]

:coffee:--- Its pretty hard to get a bad load in 45 Long Colt as that caliber just seems to correct itself going down range. --- Very forgiving --- Mag

[44man]

4198 is a tricky powder in the wrong application. It will be too slow with a lot of unburned powder and if a hot load is worked that way and all of a sudden all of the powder happens to burn, there will be a high pressure excursion. I don't know how hot a load you can get before running out of powder space, velocity will be very low but the chance of a different burn rate from shot to shot is not worth it.
4227 is also the wrong powder for the .44 and .45. When the gun is cold it will shoot nice but as the gun warms, velocity and pressure will climb very fast even with low charges.
The very best powders are still 296 and H110.

[Glen]

44man -- I respectfully disagree. What you say may be true for standard weight bullets in revolvers, where the OAL is limited by the cylinder length, but in the case of the TC, where heavier bullets can be used and the bullets can be seated long, 4198 is an excellent powder for the .45 Colt.

hivoltfl -- I have used 4198 extensively for bullets in the 330 to 520 grain range in a 10" TC Contender and 4198 is very uniform and provides no surprises. There is no unburnt powder, and there are no high pressure excursions (as determined by case expansion measurements), and accuracy is good.

The most useful hunting loads are the 330 grain Gould HP at 1200-1250 fps, 350 grain cast bullets at 1200 fps, and the 415 grain 457193 at 1100 fps.

For details, go to:

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/fryxell.htm

[44man]

Glen, I agree that a heavy boolit is the answer but Rick never mentioned boolit weight. I have had some very bad results in several calibers including the 45-70 with too light a boolit. Slow powders just have to be held back to get a good burn. I could not, in good faith, make a blanket statement that it will work because it won't with all boolits. I don't know if he is shooting a 250 gr boolit or a 400 gr.

[w30wcf]

In a .45 Colt chambered 24" rifle barrel, I have found that capacity loads of 4198 and RL7 give very good results as well.:-D

w30wcf

[felix]

44man, I agree with the other fellers'. 45 colt and 454 maggie are fine with the heavier boolits using the circa 4198 speed. Getting on up in case capacity, then I can readily see that your conclusions are correct. ... felix

[hivoltfl]

Thank you fellas, your opinions are valued, I will print this and pass on to Gene, I know he is gonna give it a go.

Rick

[Savvy Jack]

Uberti Cattleman 5 1/2 barrel Winchester brass and Win WLP's. 1/2gr shy of a capacity load
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/61_zps10398613.jpg

[44man]

Uberti Cattleman 5 1/2 barrel Winchester brass and Win WLP's. 1/2gr shy of a capacity load
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/61_zps10398613.jpg
Not knocking you at all but while testing 3031 in my 10" barrel 45-70 BFR I had unburned powder all over the bench and poured it out of brass but had great accuracy. CRAZY. 4198 had pressure excursions with cast but not jacketed. But then a rifle comes in for the .45 Colt and that is way out of line with a short barrel.
Sure you can get 4198 to work so I will not say much. After all I get Varget to work in the 7BR and 7R. Hodgdon said I was crazy, it is too slow. But it is the reverse and it is with 120 gr bullets for deer. NOT heavy bullets. I can not wrap my head around it at all. The 7BR can reach 2175 fps with a 120 gr bullet and shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with VARGET!
What bothers me is you shoot 21 feet. That is 7 yards. My shooting does not start less then 50 yards. My .45 Vaquero has shot 1" groups at 75 yards and here is a 5 shot group at 50.
Please get away from 7 yards.

[Savvy Jack]

Not knocking you at all but while testing 3031 in my 10" barrel 45-70 BFR I had unburned powder all over the bench and poured it out of brass but had great accuracy. CRAZY. 4198 had pressure excursions with cast but not jacketed. But then a rifle comes in for the .45 Colt and that is way out of line with a short barrel.
Sure you can get 4198 to work so I will not say much. After all I get Varget to work in the 7BR and 7R. Hodgdon said I was crazy, it is too slow. But it is the reverse and it is with 120 gr bullets for deer. NOT heavy bullets. I can not wrap my head around it at all. The 7BR can reach 2175 fps with a 120 gr bullet and shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with VARGET!
What bothers me is you shoot 21 feet. That is 7 yards. My shooting does not start less then 50 yards. My .45 Vaquero has shot 1" groups at 75 yards and here is a 5 shot group at 50.
Please get away from 7 yards.

That is because you fail to understand my game plan and what I am looking for. It is on a need to know basis and right now, you don't need to know. However. thanks for the info. No offense. :-)

[44man]

That is because you fail to understand my game plan and what I am looking for. It is on a need to know basis and right now, you don't need to know. However. thanks for the info. No offense. :-)
No offense from me either, not bashing but I have found too close will lose information you might be looking for. Maybe your plan is just testing powder burn and I am with you.

[Savvy Jack]

21 feet is the best I can do in my yard right now. I plan on making an 80yard target but it will take time. I need dirt, railroad ties, privacy fence etc to keep my neighbors happy. :mrgreen:

[44man]

21 feet is the best I can do in my yard right now. I plan on making an 80yard target but it will take time. I need dirt, railroad ties, privacy fence etc to keep my neighbors happy. :mrgreen:
Understood.
I lucked out when I bought my place. Just the other side of my fence down in my valley is an old limestone kiln. Pretty sad shape but it is a large backstop and I can get 200 yards to my other bench. A lot of rock in the dirt so I can't save lead at all. I have several traps at 50 yards, one is angled steel but boolits turn to dust on it. I made a trap from a 55 gal plastic barrel full of rubber mulch and it needs emptied, must weigh 500#! :mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

Maybe in a contender. Ill respect glens opinion on that one. But its two slow to bother with in a revolver with the exception of maybe the 500 linebaugh max, the smith 500 or one of those bfrs in 4570 or 50ak. I have to agree with 44man too in that if your shooting a 21 feet trying to work up loads for a gun you might as well save your powder, primers and bullets until you can set something up at least 25 yards. I can groups almost one hole at that range with my lcp rugers. Put then on a target at 25 yards though and there lucky to do 4 inch. I guess though a guys got to shoot and if its all i had id probably be shooting there too.

[Savvy Jack]

I was kind of thinking that at 21 feet they should all go through the same hole!