Cast Minie Balls: Is this supposed to happen?

[vandeusenps]

Hey guys,

Quite a nice forum you have, I just joined!

Anyways, I took my brand new T/C System 1 .54 calber inline to the range today. I bought some 425 grain minie balls, cast from a lyman mould from www.trackofthewolf.com. I wanted to try these out first before I spent the money on the actual mould for myself.

Using triple 7, I lubed the first slug up, and dropped it in the bore. What did it do? It sailed right down to the powder. I've never shot a muzzleloader with that loose of a bullet. Is this normal? I know those bullets are designed with a hollow base to expand on firing, but it still seams pretty loose. Not sure if these bullets are designed to be that way or not.

I eventually got through all 25 I bought, and they did have decent accuracy, I was carefull to not point the muzzle end down to accidentally creat a large air space in front of the powder. Any help on this subject would be great!

[Nobade]

Yep, you are right - minie' bullets should be about .001" smaller than the bore of your rifle. Normally the first one will do what you describe, and the second and following ones will slide down with the weight of the ramrod or a little push. This is why they are hollow base - to expand into the rifling and seal the bore at the moment of ignition. They will normally work best with much lighter charges than flat base boolits, and don't like to be driven too hard.

-Nobade

[vandeusenps]

Nobade,

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that these bullets were meant to be shot with lighter charges. I was using 100 gr. of triple 7. I will try 80 gr. next time to see if it helps in the accuracy department.

[fouronesix]

Just curious about some specs. Those specs may affect how that minie acts in your rifle. I assume your bore diameter will be close to .540. What is the twist rate of your rifle and what is the diameter of the minies you are shooting? Also, the skirt thickness may determine how hard they can be pushed.

I have no clue how a minie reacts to 777. I load about 50-55 gr of BP in my 54 cal minie musket and have exceptionally good results.

[vandeusenps]

fouronesix,

I quickly measured the minie's a few days ago when I got them in the mail with a digital caliper, and I don't remember what they were! I think they were a bit less than .540". I'm assuming the T/C bore diameter is close to .540, and the twist of my rifle is 1 in 38. Lyman's website describes this minie to be used with "maximum" loads, so I think the skirt thickness is larger than most?

[fouronesix]

That gives a better picture of what you are dealing with. If the description says "thicker" skirt, that may allow for a little more charge without damaging the skirt. I still think I'd start at about 50 gr charge and work up. Minies by their nature weren't designed to be hot rods- their advantage being simple and fast to load and can be very accurate. How that minie will react to the faster twist will be interesting so just have to shoot some and see what happens. The normal twist for original 54 cal minie shooters was on the order of 48" or slower. However, the track record of the 54s is a little sketchy since, by far, the most common dedicated minie shooters were 577/58 cal with twist rates of about 70"+.

If the seating jag on your ramrod is close to bore diameter and the profile of the jag fits the bullet nose and keeps the nose of the minie centered in the bore during seating... you can ram the minie down on the powder fairly hard. Don't sling the ramrod down as is seen occasionally. A firm-hard but controlled ram will upset the skirt just enough to keep the minie in-place in a clean bore, lessening the chance of it moving forward before firing. You certainly don't want to fire one with an air gap between powder and bullet base. It's always a good idea to keep the seating force consistent shot to shot. As Nobabe posted, once the bore is fouled a little there's usually enough resistance to keep the minie in place. Just use the same seating force for each shot for best chance for accuracy. It'll be interesting to see how it all works out. Also, it wouldn't hurt to try some real BP.

[Hellgate]

You might want to look for a mold that casts a slightly larger diameter minie so the first one has a little bit of resistance as it is rammed home. The second and subsequent minies will stay in place from the lining of fouling in the bore from the first shot. The 58cals are notorious for being of inconsistant bore diameters. The 54s are supposed to be more consistant. You might consider a sizer/lubricator for your minies so you can either size down or bump up the diameter of the as cast minie to be about .001" diameter smaller than the bore diameter. I have 4 different 58s and two have larger bores than the others so I need to cast an oversize minie for the larger ones. A minie that will slide out the barrel is a disaster waiting to happen. It is so easy to forget you tipped the muzzle down then see game and touch one off that blows the barrel.

[longbow]

If the minies you got are the 542622 then they have a very thick skirt and will stand pretty heavy loads.

I have never shot those but I did have a 575611 which is its big brother for .58 cal. I shot obscenely heavy loads behind those and Lyman shows very heavy charges with no blown or distorted skirts in their black powder manual.

Nonetheless, starting at 50 or 60 grs. and working up is your best best to find good accuracy within safe loading practice. The in-line must come with a max recommended load so don't exceed that.

If they are really loose fit you might try paper patching with thin tracing paper if you can get two wraps and still slide them down the bore. If not then bumping up to a slide drag fit should solve the free slide issue.

My thoughts.

Longbow

[vandeusenps]

Thanks guys for all your help. I'll be trying some solid based cast bullets next...I hunt from a treestand typically, so the thought of aiming down, having the bullet slip foward, and my barrel blowing up isn't to appealing to me. I know lyman makes a solid base mold, so I'll give that one a shot. I've also got some mmp sabots coming, and will give both 45 and 50 cal pistol bullets a try.

[OverMax]

If your concerned with a loose bullet falling down or out of its barrel... Being 1-38 twist. A sabot/bullet combo would work excellent for you also. At the very least you wouldn't have to worry about a sabot bullets movements from here to there in your barrel. If I had your problem with a minie. I would just simply turn that minie upside down and hit that skirt dead center with a ball-peen hammer. I'm sure I could get that minie to work for me.







Just kidding of course. lol

O/M

[Janoosh]

You could, of course, Paper Patch the Minie to get a feel for bore size. One or two wraps around may make a difference in accuracy. I have found that my Zoave likes a Minie to be snug going down the bore for best accuraccy.

[vandeusenps]

I'm glad I tried these out before I bought the mold. Any of you guys own the solid base 54 caliber mold from lyman? I'd be more than happy to pay for a few to test them out! I'm not sure I want to go through all the hassle of shooting minies. On the other hand, I see that mmp makes 54 caliber sabots for both 45 and 50 cal pistol bullets. I'm tempted to try both of them out, and see which one is more accurate.

[fouronesix]

I don't really understand the thing about how much hassle a minie is. It is one of the quickest and easiest if not the quickest and easiest ML projectiles to load and shoot especially over a shot string of at least 10 shots. If you can get a minie to shoot accurately in your rifle it should do much more than needed from a tree stand! I'll guarantee a 400 gr 54 cal minie fired at even 900 fps out of a ML and out to any reasonable range will completely penetrate 2 or 3 deer! But, if you're primary interest is velocity then the sabot'd load is the way to go. But, no matter the projectile or ML type, THEY ALL require range time, understanding of cleaning and maintenance and some effort for load development. Accuracy with correct shot placement is the name of the game.

[OverMax]

I've been at this game since the early eighty's. I primarily shoot PRB. As that is what my barrels twist rate calls for. As far as I know your rifle was designed by its manufacture to shoot sabot & bullet. Although its twist rate is compatible for minie & maxi use. The way I see things. When you shoot a period weapon whether it be a traditional or a inline. Try and stay with what the manufacture suggested for projectile usage. You'll save yourself allot grief and money. When I'm looking for a change up to something more on the heavy weight side. These are the folks I turn too and order from. {as I have more than one rifle at my disposal.} Their product is the easiest loading and re-loading sabot comb I've come across in all that I've tried over the years. I also believe its the most accurate shooting projectiles & sabot combo you'll come across in the market place also. I know this web site is dedicated to casting. But not everyone can cast for one reason or another. Store bought becomes the other alternative and the most practical. MMP Harvester Hornady packaged sabot. Nope!! you won't see me pushing one of those down my barrels ever again. PR bullet/sabot combos are indeed on my go to list for those special times when I need "A Big Hole made in a Big ol Deer."

P.Script. If you check out this link. And under{Washington all lead.} You maybe surprised at who shot the big o'l black bear. And his choice of sabo/projectile.

O/M

http://www.prbullet.com/pts.htm

[vandeusenps]

fouronesix,
I would say the minie has been the easiest mz bullet I've ever loaded, but the fact that it has the potential to move foward in the barrel makes me a little uneasy. Maybe I was cleaning the barrel to much while shooting, because the lubed bullet slid right down to the powder every time.

overmax,
I plan on trying the sabots out as soon as I can get ahold of some. I did get a 12 gauge barrel for this gun as well, and have some .690" roundballs to try out. Not expecting great accuracy, but should be lots of fun!

[Sergeant Earthworm]

I haven't tried minies in a hunting rifle, only in my .58 Armi-Sport 1861 Springfield using a .577 minie with 65 grains of fffg BP. With that rifle/ball combination, the minie is in contact with the lands just enough that there is a little resistance when seating the first shot. Seating the ball on subsequent shots requires a bit more effort due to powder residue.

The loose ball thing would cause me to use a larger diameter projectile, even if it meant abandoning the idea of hunting with a minie, one reason being that the first shot would always be out of a clean barrel thus no residue to create resistance. Any air gap between powder/ball is bad, very bad. Very unlikely that it would cause a catastrophic failure (such as the barrel bursting) but the intense pressure could cause the breach area of the barrel to swell slightly leading to a very poor shooting gun especially if repeated a few times. Maybe paper patching would solve the problem, but it seems that would defeat the purpose of using the minie.

[Good Cheer]

Tried hot loading the 542622 in the flinter GPR (60" minie twist) with the expected happy results.
Would really like to see what the fast twist shallow rifling barrels will do.