Dan Wesson .44

[ebner glocken]

Does anyone have any experience with the pre-CA DWs? I'm considering one used in .44 mag 6". The price seems right but the stories I hear are totally one way or another......gem or junk. The one consistant thing I hear is that they are accurate but nobody seems to tell exactly what load, what range, and group size.

[44man]

If you get a good one they are super accurate. I can tell you two things to check when you look at it. Sight across the top of the gun and see if the barrel shroud is straight with the frame. If the barrel has any angle to it, leave it! A lot of frames were drilled and threaded crooked.
Then cock the gun to each chamber in turn and check the cylinder gap at each chamber with the feeler gage, if one side is tighter, leave it! I have seen them go from .002" on one side to .006" or more on the other because the front of the cylinder was faced crooked. I have even seen the cylinder pin hole drilled crooked. The feeler gage check will show any problem.
There are a few internal checks because of some parts not working as designed but that would be beyond what you can find and you have to know what you are doing. Those are fixable if the gun is straight. Normally, any gun that was made straight will be OK inside.
You have heard the story of cars made on monday being lemons. Changes in management made every day monday at DW. If you get a gun made either side of bad management, you will have a tack driver. Just inspect it with a critical eye.

[BD]

I have some experience with The DW's. The Monson, MA guns were hand fit with excellent blueing and are generally very good. The Palmer, MA guns resulted from a four year attempt to restart the business on the old and worn machinery, and are generally not very good. The Norwich, NY guns are produced on state of the art CNC machinery and I believe they're the best of the bunch. The DW's were much prized by sillywet shooters for their accuracy, second only to a good Freedom Arms IMHO.

I have a 744 which, although it is marked "Norwich", was built up using a cylinder left from the Palmer production. While it would out shoot my Redhawk with SWCs when I bought it, I sent it back to DW to have the cylinder chambers uniformed and shaped for the WFN style of boolits, as I couldn't seat them in all of the chambers. I think that cost me $50 and was well worth it. I have many thousands of rounds through this gun and it's still going strong.

I also have a Monson M-15, which has the most beautiful bluing, but was not fitted at all. I picked this up in trade for a Swede M96 in 2005 and it had some real issues, (another story entirely), and I've only recently gotten it all sorted out.

DW's have a unique, and somewhat complicated, trigger mechanism, and to further complicate it the small frame trigger is different from the large frame trigger. I've done the trigger job on both of mine. While you will never get a double action trigger to rival a good S&W, you can have one of the best single action triggers anywhere. And, with the basic sort of trigger job I did you can have a very good, safe and durable single action trigger which will last the life of the revolver.

I started the 744 out on the Lee 310 over a caseful of surplus W-680. This load was a bit dirty but very accurate, (under 4" @ 100 yards, and I'm sure it would do better with a better shooter on the grip). The 310's completely penetrated everything I shot with them including a 10" maple tree six times, (another story). I've moved to a 265 gr. WFN over surplus W-820 as this load still penetrates completely through game, shoots a bit flatter and recoils less.

As with any revolver purchase a range rod and a couple of pin guages will tell the tale. If it's a Monson or Palmer gun I'd take an empty primed case along and make sure that the firing pin is centered on the primer as this was one of the common complaints with the older guns, and is not an issue that's easily remedied.

BD

[BD]

I've only looked closely at a dozen or so DWs, and I've never seen the cylinder face or shroud alignment issues 44 man mentioned. However, I've spent some time on the phone with the guy's in the current pistol shop and I definately got the impression that anything's possible relative to the Palmer, MA guns. As of this past spring the pistol shop was still in business and parts, including barrels and shrouds, are available. I was looking for a 4" barrel and shroud for the M-15 on E-bay when on a hunch I located the DW pistol shop. I bought a new shroud and barrel from DW for just about half of what they were going for on E-bay at the time. I bought a new firing pin and mainspring for the M-15 from DW about two months ago.
BD

[ebner glocken]

Well, I bought it 350 is what I have in it. It's a Monson, MA gun with no issues of alignment or runout on the cylinder. The only complaint I have about fit and finish is that there is a mould mark around the trigger (they didn't seem to take the 2 minutes it would take to polish that out). The bluing is bright and outstanding. Range results will follow soon.

Thanks for the advise.

[leftiye]

44,
Another thing that causes or contributes (depending on which problems are present) the varying cylinder gap thing is the face of the extractor that bears on the frame at the rear being cut crooked or the extractor rod/ extractor not being straight.. As in the S&Ws, the extractor and extractor rods must be straight when cranked down tight, and that rear face must be perpendicular to the axis of the whole thang.

[leftiye]

BD, I tried to P.M. you, but the list didn't recognize you as an address. Could you provide me with the phone number or address of the shop for Dam Wessons you mentioned please? The online page really sucks about getting parts.

The problem I mentioned was with my personal gun. It had both the chambers and center hole out of concentricity with the cylinder and the extractor was crooked. I got a new cylinder off of Evilbay and hand ground it so as to get all of the chamber mouths equal distance from the rear of the barrel. Wore out a $60 diamond plate. When I trued the rear of the extractor however, the headspace ended up too small.

[44man]

I had a fixture to mount the cylinder in. The dial indicator on the front would show a vast difference. Yes, a ratchet cut bad will cause it too but the amount of bearing surface is very small and will not equal the amount some were off. Anyway, these were sent back to the factory to be re-cut. Nice because the cylinder gap could be set. But there was no excuse for such bad machining. You could see it with the naked eye.
I have easy ways to get tight barrel nuts off and to tension the barrel for the best accuracy. I also have an easy way to assemble the gun if taken apart if anyone needs it. It is a wonderful design if they would have only had good management all along.

[leftiye]

I removed the staked in thingie (spring guide) at the bottom of the hammer spring well (that the grip screw screws in to), and made another that has a hex head and can be unscrewed. This makes it possible to assemble the action without the hammer spring. Much easier to assemble that way!

44man, I think you said it right before - no excuse for such sloppy machining, and finishing practices!

[44man]

Here are a few other things I have found;
There is a spring loaded plunger on the cylinder lock bolt that should keep everything in line. Most times it is not touching the frame and doesn't work. Instead of fixing it, the factory will peen the bolt slot tighter.
Recoil plate not square to the rear of the cylinder, a new shell will only touch at the top and fired cases will have the head bent out of line.
No clicks in rear sight near bottom because the screw will bottom in the hole and lift the sight off the detent ball.
If you take the gun apart, leave the hammer out until last when putting it back together. Remove the rear sight screw so the hammer will fit back in easy.
Squeeze the hand and transfer bar (or connector) together and tie them with sewing thread. Leave the tails long so when you hold the gun upside down, the threads fall through the hammer slot. Set and lock the assembly in place. Reach in with a small knife and cut the thread, install the hammer and sight screw.
If the barrel nut will not loosen, don't force it! :-? Put a hose with a funnel in the forcing cone and pour boiling water through the barrel and the nut will spin right off. You can also tighten the nut this way to stress the barrel but don't overtighten it, just snug it.
I hope this helps.

[BD]

I'll add: Both of the DW trigger assemblies involve loosely held parts moving past and against each other as well as milled areas of the frame, (and side plate in the small frame). It is well worth pulling the clockwork out and stoning the insides of the frame and edges of the parts smooth. I found a 1911 trigger track stone to be perfect for reaching in there.

Also look for the hand catching on milling marks in it's frame slot, The hand spring catching on the transfer bar and the cylinder bolt catching in it's slot. In the small frame guns the bottom of the hand must bypass the top edge of the rear of the trigger. Relieving these parts where they pass eliminates the little "hitch" in the double action pull. A good, reliable and safe double action pull in the DWs is more about smoothing up the parts which bypass or rub together than it is about spring weights and the sear and hammer engagement.
BD

[44man]

Yes, much needed work, well said.

[BD]

I've handled a number of Monson DWs which had triggers as good, or better, than mine after I did the work. And all of the newer Norwich guns seem excellent. I think that at various times in the history of the company no one was watching the fitting QC for whatever reason. They all look pretty good on the outside, but a lot of them got out the door without being slicked up on the inside. As to the Palmer guns and the mis-milled cylinders and frames; there's just no excuse for that.
BD

[Cayoot]

Alot of information here, thanks guys! I'm looking at purchasing a Monson 8 inch .44 mag from Gun broker....so of course I can't examine it personally. However after reading all this, I'm not sure if the Monson guns are a safe bet or not! This gun was manufactured in 1981....so would this be a safe bet or not?

Thanks

Bary

[BD]

Don't get me wrong, I think the DWs are the best .44 mag revolters out there. However, they may need some slicking up. I would ask for a 3 day right to return it so you can look it over and make sure that the cylinder is square to the frame, and the firing pin centered up. I'd ask this for any gun I bought sight unseen. Leftiye's is the first Monson gun I've run across with a serious problem. I don't consider the trigger work to be a serious issue. Most production guns need some slickin' up to make them sweet, no matter who manufactured them.
BD

[Cayoot]

Don't get me wrong, I think the DWs are the best .44 mag revolters out there. However, they may need some slicking up. I would ask for a 3 day right to return it so you can look it over and make sure that the cylinder is square to the frame, and the firing pin centered up. BD


Thanks, I asked and was told that they have a 14 day return policy. It is an expensive gun, but I think I'm going for it. It has an 8 inch tube so it will compliment my other .44 (29-8 Mnt Gun).

[BD]

Cayoot, Do you have pin guages and a range rod? I can lend you the pin guages for the .44, but unless we mailed them 3rd class the shipping is probably worth more than the guages.
BD

[Cayoot]

Cayoot, Do you have pin guages and a range rod? I can lend you the pin guages for the .44, but unless we mailed them 3rd class the shipping is probably worth more than the guages.
BD

No I don't. That is a very gracious offer! Thanks!

Are they difficult to use? I'm a bean counter, not an engineer!

If it would help me insure that this is a quality gun, the use of them would be far more valuable than the cost of the shipping!

[ebner glocken]

I want to thank yall for pushing me over the edge and buying this thing. The first load I fired in it was 7.5 ww 321 behind a kieth 250 javelena lube. Shot under 2 inches with no bench or bags @ 25 yards. I didn't have much time to go any further but from this informal rushed 2 quick cylinders full........I do think this thing will shoot well. A more lengthly range session will tell more.

[BD]

Cayoot,
Pin guages are easy, they're just steel cylinders machined to a pretty exact dimension. All you do is clean the cylinder real well, open it and try the pin guages in the chambers one at a time, noting how far they stick up out of the individual chambers. You are looking for uniformity. If you have the guage set, (I only have a chamber depth and throat depth size for the .44), you can also determine the chamber mouth diameter. However you can also do this by pushing sized boolits through.

The range rod is a longer cylinder on a handle which you oil and insert down a clean barrel to check if the individual chamber mouths line up with the barrel. You can check the cylinder being square to the frame with a feeler guage, and you can check firing pin alighnment by popping the primer on an empty case, (or shooting a cylinder full).

IMHO, Generally speaking if you have a revolver which locks up pretty tight, has uniform cylinders which line up with the bore, has chamber mouths just at or a bit over goove diameter and a well centered firing pin, you're good to go. Other issues can be dealt with.
BD

[44man]

My friend picked up a Dan Wesson .45 auto. I shot the smallest group with it that I ever shot with an auto. 5 shots in 1/2" at 50 yd's. Both of our jaws dropped when we checked the target! :drinks:

[Cayoot]

I want to thank yall for pushing me over the edge and buying this thing. The first load I fired in it was 7.5 ww 321 behind a kieth 250 javelena lube. Shot under 2 inches with no bench or bags @ 25 yards. I didn't have much time to go any further but from this informal rushed 2 quick cylinders full........I do think this thing will shoot well. A more lengthly range session will tell more.

Really looking forward to your range report!

[Cayoot]

BD, you have a PM