Mauser Modelo Argentino 1909

[fa38]

I have a rifle marked on the receiver Mauser Modelo Argentino 1909. Serial number is matching on the receiver, bolt, floor plate, cleaning rod, and stock. Are there any other places that have a serial number on the in this model Mauser?
Except for some dings in the wood and a little darkening of the rear bolt area it looks like new and original.

It will not chamber new Privi Partizan brass marked 7.65x53 but will chamber and extract new 7mm brass.

It appears to have a .276 bore and a .285 groove. I pounded a 7mm cast bullet into the muzzle for these measurements made with a dial caliper. A RCBS 30-165-SIL will not even begin to enter the bore.

The barrel is 29 and 1/8 inch long from the muzzle to the bolt face. 4 groove and as close as I can measure a 8 1/2 inch twist.

The rifle does not look like it has been rebarreled.

Were these rifles chambered for cartridges other than the 7.65x53?

What do I have?

[EDG]

Pull the barreled action out of the stock and post some well lit photos that show the various inspectors and proof marks on the barrel.

[fa38]

Pull the barreled action out of the stock and post some well lit photos that show the various inspectors and proof marks on the barrel.>>>

I was hoping it would not come to that. It may take awhile. I tried to take the front band off and it looks like I will have to take some tool of some sort to gently work that band off. I am pretty sure that I have to remove the cleaning rod. Does the pin through the bayonet mount have to come out?
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[leadhead]

The bayonet lug has to be removed to remove the front band.
You also have to remove the cleaning rod. Be careful in taking it apart, as some of these
can bring a lot of $$$$ if in all matching and nice condition. Take a small piece of wood
and gently tap the front band off after pushing in the spring retainer. Hope this helps.
Denny

[leadhead]

The original chambering was 7.65 x53. It could be that someone rebarreled it
with a 7mm 1908 barrel which would be the same size as the original.
When you get it apart, check for a serial number on the barrel some where.
The barrels were numbered to the receivers.
Denny

[fa38]

I did not remove the bayonet lug but was able to lift the barreled action slightly out of the wood. The barrel has the same serial number. It also has lightly punched in on the barrel ahead of the serial number and a bit indistinct (94B)
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[fa38]

Some more pictures of the rifle.
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[leadhead]

Very strange..... Don't know what to tell ya. I'd have a chamber cast done to make sure
what it is for sure. Strange the bore slugs at .285 which is 7mm. Keep us informed....
Denny

[mikeym1a]

Very strange..... Don't know what to tell ya. I'd have a chamber cast done to make sure
what it is for sure. Strange the bore slugs at .285 which is 7mm. Keep us informed....
Denny

Certainly is odd. I pulled my 'sportenized' 1909 out to check, and all the markings seem to be in the right place. His is much newer than mine, my ser # is A7xxx. And his is a lot prettier than mine! If it's an original, that might push the value up, or maybe down. What's his name, something 'eyes' has books on the Mauser military rifles. If he checks in, maybe he'll be able to tell you something.

Pretty gun. [smilie=s:

[fa38]

Well thanks for the help guys. I will try my hand at chamber casting again.. The last time I tried it I made a fine mess but I have a friend and he does a very good job on chamber casts. I will have to take my cerrosafe and the rifle up to him.

[EDG]

On my cavalry carbine there is a character that looks like a B with a script M punched on top of each other after the serial number on the bolt handle. That same character appears on top of the barrel chamber reinforce.
It is the same character that appears after the receiver serial number on both my rifle and yours.
On the rear sight base under the pivot hole is the Argentine "handshake."


In my junk pile is a like new on the outside - with totally ruined bore - barrel from a 1908 Brazilian Mauser cal 7X57.
It has the serial number on the other side of the chamber. Immediately behind that it has the B in a circle like your barrel.
There is a German script B (I think it means Ss) under the pivot hole on the left side of the rear sight base.
On the left side of the front sight base is a script W or numeral 3 laying on its side.

[Dutchman]

I'd be very careful messing with that beauty. It's about a $750-850 rifle... or more.

Usually when somebody says they have something that shouldn't be we find out eventually that they were wrong in what they told us. But... the pictures show a perfectly normal m/1909 Argentine. If you say the bore is for 7mm I don't know what to think. It would be the first that I've heard like that but I haven't heard of everything :).

Dutch

[mroliver77]

If the pictures are any indication that piece is gorgeous!

It is weird that the barrel has the correct serial number. I could find nothing about any 7mm versions of this gun. If it is off of a 1908 why would anybody stamp the serial number under the barrel?

I love a mystery!
J

[Multigunner]

I've read of Spain in the 30's buying up surplus Mausers and having them rebarreled or in some cases relined to 7mm.
First I heard of these was WW1 GEW 98 rifles with corroded bores relined to 7mm. These were for use in the Spanish Civil War. Never heard of the Argentine 1909 being rebarreled for this purpose.

Could be a South American country that still used the 7mm bought up some surplus 1909 rifles to rebarrel. The Gran Chaco War was pretty intense and a good market for anything that would shoot. One or both sides used the 7mm, and there were complaints that the older 95 actioned rifles could not handle the more potent 7mm ammunition available at the time.

[john hayslip]

They made up some in 8.15x47R for target shooting but with a bore that small it isn't one of these.

[Argentino]

Argentinean Mausers were only provided in 7,65 x 53mm. Argentine (or Belgian, same cartridge).

IIRC, no other cartridge was ever provided to the Argentinean Army, until they switched to F.A.L.s chambered in 7,62x51mm. several decades after.

It seems to be an example in excellent condition. I don´t think it had ever been re barreled. If the bore is in good condition (very likely), a .311 bullet would not fit into the barrel from the crown more than (roughly) 1/3 of its total length; actually, (as almost all of you may know) this is a quick way to measure barrel condition in old rifles: a bullet of the proper caliber would not enter more than that into the crown of a good barrel.

[Multigunner]

Check for a Mexican connection.
IIRC both FN and DWM filled small contracts by using leftover Mauser receivers from earlier contracts. Mexico bought up some odd combinations, like the Japanese Arisaka rifles in 7mm rather than the original 6.5mm.

Also I vaguely remember some Latin nation issuing 7mm rifles to their naval sharpshooters when their ground forces used a different caliber, don't remember which. The British issued some 7mm rifles and 6.5 rifles to naval sharpshooters in WW1.

The rifle pictured is in such excellent condition I suspect it may be a prototype.

[fa38]

My friend made a chamber cast today which shows it to be a 7mm Mauser.

Using a very strong light we both looked for any evidence of a sleeve job. No indication of a sleeve whatsoever.

I will try my Chileno 7mm Mauser load later this week.

I am going to take some more and hopefully better pictures of the rifle. Holding a light with one hand and the camera with the other does not make for the best pictures.

[fa38]

I took the rifle out to the range today and shot it with the loads I use in my Chileno 1895 7mm.

The extracted case looked just like a new unfired case except the shoulder angles were sharper instead of slightly rounded like the new case. I put it into my Wilson case length gage and it was slightly blow the min part of the gage.

I then fired the other 6 rounds and they went into about a 8 inch group at 100 yards. They all extracted normally and looked like the first case fired.
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Photos show some new numbers and some of the dings on the rifle.

[ReloaderEd]

Very interesting, I was given a 91 Argentine 7.65x53 with Lee Dies and cases and some loaded rounds with cast bullets. I realized very quicking the chamber was shorter than the full sized brass made fro 30-06. I pushed the case taper back about 2mm and the case just chambered. I loaded some .312 cast slugs in the cases with a 12 gr load of Unique. It shot and keyholes several of the bullets at 100 yds.
I found the barrel to be .318 groove diameter and maybe a tad larger. The chamber throat of this barrel is .350" and will fit an 8x57mm mauser shorten 3/32" on the neck taper.
I then fired some .323" diameter cast slugs through it. It shot them with no porblems and there were no pressure signs on the cases which looked good.
is there an 8x53mm mauser that was used in these rifles to some degree. I picked up a barrel from Ebay (which I sent back for refund) and it was exactly the same as the barrel on the rifle.

I am sure there is a collecter in this group that can help me answer the question. Thank you and be safe. [smilie=p:

[leadman]

Weren't some of the 1909s rechambered to 30-06. I vaguely recall an ad from several years ago in a catalog showing these guns in 7X57. My friend has a C&R and gives me these catalogs once in awhile.

As for reloadered, it almost sounds like the barrel is completely eroded out. If it was a .318" bore with an 8X57 chamber I could see it being rebarreled.
Could the chamber be cut for a 7X57 case? I know the oal is the same on the 8X57 and 7X57, but the shoulder is farther forward on the 8x57 IIRC.
What is the total length of the case that fits the chamber?

[Multigunner]

The .318 bore barrel may have been a factory error of some sort.
If a subcontractor was making barrels for the 8mmJ they may have gotten some barrel blanks mixed in with those intended for the 7.65.
Oversized bores in military barrels aren't that uncommon, with the .303 British its the rule rather than the exception (SAID specs call for a minimum of .002 greater than the nominal .311 major dia). This much oversize may have been considered acceptable for the 7.65 Argie at some point, British Enfield bores of .318 are within acceptable tolerances for those rifles, at least in wartime production.

[Argentino]

Very strange. There were no other calibers than the 7,65x53 so my guess is that the barrel may have been changed, even when it seems to be no evidence of that. Have you tried cerrosafe to obtain a chamber cast?

[ReloaderEd]

I appreciate the replies. Case length is the same as the 7.65x53mm. It does shoot the 8mm boolits with no problems. The small ring action is not strong enough to put a 308or 30/06 barrel. Used decent barrels are hard to come by. I dont want anything smaller than 30 caliber. Also cost is factor. Be safe