+p in model 14?

[mainiac]

I have found a slightly warmish load of bullseye,that shoots really well in my 38 smith,model 14.
Am wondering if the 14 is/was rated for +p ammo?

[ironhead7544]

Depends on when it was made. IIRC, pre-1960 was not recommended.

[mainiac]

this one im shooting is a first year 14,,,no dash.

[pmeisel]

I wouldn't. It probably would hold, but why beat up a beautiful old gun?

[ironhead7544]

S&W started using the numbered system about 1957. I would call them and ask about +P. There were no factory loads labeled +P back then. The 38-44 loads were the high pressure 38 Special loads available.

[fecmech]

I have found a slightly warmish load of bullseye,that shoots really well in my 38 smith,model 14.
Am wondering if the 14 is/was rated for +p ammo?

I have a 14-3 that's digested at least 15-20K of 4.2/BE/158RN as listed in Lyman cast bullet handbook #3. It is a very accurate load that I use for the 100 yd rams in Hunters Pistol. I have since found an even more accurate load using the same powder charge and the Lee 121 TC bullet. It groups under 2"@50 yds and is what I use for all targets except the ram now.

[Outpost75]

If an early 14 with no dash, stay away from +P because S&W no longer has parts to fix the old ones. You have a collectible gun there. If you want to shoot hot loads, sell the gun to somebody who appreciatez for what it is and buy a GP100.

[repawn]

I don't with my 10-1 - I think it could handle the occasional +p but I wouldn't feed it a steady diet of them.

[dubber123]

Curious as to the load also. Some of what is considered hot in .38 Spl. now wasn't years ago. My old tapered barrel Mod 10 I don't believe is technically rated at the +P level, but has digested close to 40,000 rounds since it hit my hands in well used condition. Many were well into the +P range, it's still tight and accurate. My 6" 14 is a -2, 1967 vintage, and my regular load is probably +Pish, and I am not worried in the least. The cautions of beating up an old gun are well founded, but those K-frame S&W's aren't as weak as often believed.

[mainiac]

3.7 grs of bullseye,with the 358091,,,144 gr with my alloy. This load does over 900 f.p.s.,,,,,i consider it pretty snappy,,but the old gun will shoot this load like a lasar beam....

[fecmech]

3.7 grs of bullseye,with the 358091,,,144 gr with my alloy. This load does over 900 f.p.s.,,,,,i consider it pretty snappy,,but the old gun will shoot this load like a lasar beam....
IMO you're not anywhere near +P or even max std pressure with that load. In the Lyman 3rd edition cast book 4.4/BE is listed as max std pressure for that bullet.

[9.3X62AL]

I have gotten away from +P 38 Special loading entirely, due to having a 1949-made Colt Officer's Model Special that I wish to avoid exposing to elevated pressures. Standard velocity does fine work in this caliber, and having three 357 Magnum revos on hand makes hot-rodding the 38s even more ludicrous. I would re-think this regimen if I carried a 38 Special for CCW--my approving agency's load is the Rem 125 grain +P. But I don't carry a 38 at all, so no matter currently. It's just a matter of KISS for me, with 35 calibers to ride herd upon.

[mainiac]

IMO you're not anywhere near +P or even max std pressure with that load. In the Lyman 3rd edition cast book 4.4/BE is listed as max std pressure for that bullet.
Thanks for the reply. Ive been shooting the gun at around 650 f.p.s.,and when i step up to 950,,she has a little more snap.Kinda concerned about loosening up the ol girl.....

[Outpost75]

Your no-dash S&W Model 14 probably isn't heat treated, but is plain carbon steel similar to 1035 or 1040 which probably tests 80-90 on the Rockwell "B" scale. If you measure the cylinder diameter you will also find it is smaller in diameter than a later "dash" cylinder, which means that 1960s and later K-frame cylinders won't fit it, if you ever need to recyclinder in a repair.

If you shoot +P in it and bulge the chamber walls into the locking bolt notches, you will have a "fun" time in trying to find a replacement cylinder to repair it. Last time I recylindered an old model K-38 we hunted far and wide for the proper cylinder and the owner was extremely happy to find a useable one in nice condition with the proper blue which wasn't a bad match for his gun for only $200!

Please do not shoot +P in this nice old target gun. Load wadcutters with charges not exceeding 3.2 grs. of Bullseye or 3.5 of W231, or 158 SWCs seated not shorter than 1.4" OAL with either 3.5 of Bullseye or 4 grs. of W231, approximating factory standard pressure (NOT +P) loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

other then in a snubby carry gun i never saw the reason to load plus p in a 38. If i want fast ill grab a 357 revolver. 38s are for those lazy kicked back days of rolling beer cans at camp. Dont need much of a load for that.

[MtGun44]

In K frame guns you could eventually crack the back of the barrel if you push it much beyond the normal
loads. With some powders you can easily get 900 fps in a 6" bbl and stay inside the pressure limits,
think slower powders like Power Pistol. Here is the link to Alliant powder's data page for .38 Spl. They
say you can get 948 fps with 158 LSWC with Power Pistol and stay inside the limits for std loads.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=8&cartridge=26

+P loads at only about 80-90 fps to this.

High pressure problems (like .357 Mag, espcially) is the whole reason that the L frame was invented, K is just a bit
thin in spots for .357 loads, even with heat treating.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

High pressure problems (like .357 Mag, espcially) is the whole reason that the L frame was invented, K is just a bit
thin in spots for .357 loads, even with heat treating.

Bill

Very true. As nice as the 38/44 revolvers are--and there's one on sale locally at a semi-decent tariff--they went outta production once the 357 Magnum got on scene and showed success. The K-frame 357s were great to carry, but constant use of the 42K CUP 357 loads at large in the 1960s-1990s would beat them up more than a little. That S&W elects to chamber J-frame snubbies in 357 Magnum astounds me, even if SAAMI has neutered the magrevs to the 36K CUP level. I've fired a couple of these barky, bitey little rollers with our duty loads--I would prefer catching my thumb and its web in a leg-hold trap. All good things have their limit, and recoil is among those items. It took S&W 45 years to get the 357 Magnum right--after their short-cylinder N-frame and over-stressed K-frame platforms, the L-frames FINALLY had their kit in one bag. Then along come the J-frames, and not long afterward the glory holes and MIM parts. The myopic astigmatism of this company is breathtaking in scope and indescribable in depth.

[shorty500M]

S&W warranties every gun built since 1955 for use with +P ammo. if ammo were to cause a warranty repair it would be either a barrel cracking in forcing cone or a cylinder failure both of which would be repairable by S&W with available parts they have on hand.

[dubber123]

other then in a snubby carry gun i never saw the reason to load plus p in a 38. If i want fast ill grab a 357 revolver. 38s are for those lazy kicked back days of rolling beer cans at camp. Dont need much of a load for that.

Lloyd, the biggest reason I load them over standard pressure is it really seems to tighten up groups when you get past the 25 yard range. The respondants mentioning the forcing cone cracking that was occasionally experienced with the .357 K-frames need to remember +P in .38 Spl. is still only about 1/2 the pressure of those older .357 mag loads. Fecmechs manual seems to indicate the pressure of the OP's load should still be in the standard range. I believe within the past few years Brian Pearce listed 4.0 grs of BE with a 200 gr. boolit as being a standard pressure load, and I shot a bunch of those though my old Mod. 10 also. I realize the deeper seating depth of the OP's wadcutter will change pressure, but it's also almost 60 grains lighter. I'd just consult the manuals, and see where the pressure falls.

[williamwaco]

1) I am with the crowd that says "don't do it".

2) I would not exceed 3.5gr BullsEye. I have shot a zillion of those
BUT that is with a 160 to 161 grain bullets.

3) According to my Lyman Pistol and Revolver Guide, your load does not make it to +P pressure levels.

4) She is your baby. You decide.

[35remington]

Fecmech's manual is dated and considerably higher in powder charge than recent sources. 3.5 Bullseye with the 358091 is the upper end of the standard velocity range according to several sources, including the much newer Cast manual #4, and 4.4 grains is not only Plus P but somewhat past it.

Why? Because the deeply seated wadcutter has somewhat less case space when seated than the 158 RN of Lyman make, and that tops out at 4.1 grains in the recent Lyman manual. Don't use 4.4. Ain't standard pressure, and likely Plus P and then some. Plus P would be more like in the same range to a tenth or two higher than what you're using, so don't kid yourself.

You're already over standard pressure at 3.7.

[Outpost75]

Again I would bring OPs attention to the smaller diameter, non-heat treated cylinder, and frame compared to post 1960ish K frames. It is simple to measure cylinder OD compared to a later "dash" model K frame. That is a clue. Even if it has the larger diameter cylinder, it would be wise to have a Rockwell hardness test done on the cylinder. If it doesn't even register on the "C" scale, that again is a clue!

[Outpost75]

S&W did not heat treat everything, only those calibers that needed it, when they knew the government customer was checking, otherwise we wouldn't have had to do samples of incoming contract guns and reject so many when I was QAR. Sorry, wrong answer. How many pre-1980 K-frame. 38 Special cylinders have you checked? Some of their. 357 cylinders were soft and missed heat treat also, so we had to return a whole skid of revolvers from FLETC for reproofing.

I know what Roy Jenks says in his book, but he is promoting the company line, because it's his ricebowl. I've replaced bulged cylinders on 100 or so which were not up to firing Q4070 110-gr. +P+ used by the government customer. S&W tried to blame the ammo, of course, but the metallurgical examination spokd for itself.

[gwpercle]

I wouldn't, too nice an old gun to be hot rodding. Perfect excuse to buy another Smith rated for +P's. Allway's need a good excuse......Gary

[9.3X62AL]

I wouldn't, too nice an old gun to be hot rodding. Perfect excuse to buy another Smith rated for +P's. Allway's need a good excuse......Gary

You guys are going to end up costing me money. I'm headed out to look more closely at that 38/44 Outdoorsman on sale at the LGS. Drat your scandalous hides, anyway. :)

[Char-Gar]

S&W warranties every gun built since 1955 for use with +P ammo. if ammo were to cause a warranty repair it would be either a barrel cracking in forcing cone or a cylinder failure both of which would be repairable by S&W with available parts they have on hand.

I don't believe that is correct on several counts. 1957 the beginning year that Smith and Wesson rates some models suitable for +P ammo, but that varies from model to model as heat treatment changed. Smith and Wesson will no longer accept handguns of the vintage in question for service as they no longer have any parts.

If you don't believe me, pick up the phone and call them at the factory. I have on a number of occasions.

[Char-Gar]

You guys are going to end up costing me money. I'm headed out to look more closely at that 38/44 Outdoorsman on sale at the LGS. Drat your scandalous hides, anyway. :)

I have had several 34/44s over the years both the Outdoorsman (adjustable sights) and the Heavy Duty (fixed sights). They are great sixguns. The only one I have left is a 4" Heavy Duty. I got it cheap in a pawn shop some years back with a badly flaked after market job. It was one of the post war transition model. I had it de-nickled and blued and it is one of my favorite handguns. Enjoy

[Char-Gar]

I have found a slightly warmish load of bullseye,that shoots really well in my 38 smith,model 14.
Am wondering if the 14 is/was rated for +p ammo?

I have a number of vintage K frame Smith and Wessons including several K-38s/Model 14s. I would not shoot +p loads in one of your vintage. In fact I reserve +p loads for N frames or K chambered for 357 Mag. This are great pistols and there is no reason to send one to an early grave just for the fun of shooting higher pressure loads. Every handgun has a service life and the hotter the load the shorter the service life.

My top end 38 Special load is 3.5/Bulleye with a 150 to 160 grain cast bullet. Here is an amazing 100 years old M&P with which I just can't seem to miss. It is almost spooky how well this old pistol shoots.

[Piedmont]

What a beautiful old S&W that is in post #33. The honest wear makes it even prettier.

They don't make them like that anymore. They don't even make them like they did 20 years ago anymore.

[Piedmont]

I didn't really doubt Outpost75 but had never heard that the old S&W K frames had smaller cylinders. So I got out the trusty caliper and he is right. About .010" smaller diameter.

Didn't the M19 debut around 1956? I'm guessing they made the cylinder bigger for that then later decided to make them all one diameter. Does anyone know if that is the story?

[shorty500M]

I don't believe that is correct on several counts. 1957 the beginning year that Smith and Wesson rates some models suitable for +P ammo, but that varies from model to model as heat treatment changed. Smith and Wesson will no longer accept handguns of the vintage in question for service as they no longer have any parts.
If you don't believe me, pick up the phone and call them at the factory. I have on a number of occasions.

S&W cannot SELL you VINTAGE PARTS as they are OUT OF STOCK and NO LONGER in PRODUCTION, YES i will agree to that but CRANES, CYLINDER ASSEMBLY AND BARRELS from CURRENT PRODUCTION FIT. sell parts to you NO ,but to FIT NEW FACTORY PARTS UNDER WARRANTY as they did with a model 1950 Target made in 1952 when the cylinder failed with a modern factory .45ACP load that CRACKED cylinder, YES they can and did in 2009!!

[Char-Gar]

I didn't really doubt Outpost75 but had never heard that the old S&W K frames had smaller cylinders. So I got out the trusty caliper and he is right. About .010" smaller diameter.

Didn't the M19 debut around 1956? I'm guessing they made the cylinder bigger for that then later decided to make them all one diameter. Does anyone know if that is the story?

I don't know when and why Smith and Wesson upsized the K frame cylinders, but they did. I will always accept the input of Outpost75 as fact, unless I have hard multi-source documentation to the contrary in my hand, which I have never had :-).

I have lots of hands on experience with these matters over a half century and that counts for something, but I also know when somebody shows up with experience and knowledge that trumps mine. When that person shows up, it is time for me to just shut up, listen and learn. I may be an arrogant AH at times, but I am not stupid. :-)

You did mention Smith Model 19s didn't you? That is my cue. Here is my latest bueaty, a 1967 vintage 19-2 wearing a vintage set of Bear Hug Skelton grips. This is one of the last set of grips Deacon made before he died. The pic is not as sharp as I would have liked, but it will have to do. This is one slick pistol...for sure and for certain.

[Char-Gar]

Before I start off on my daily doings, here is a little follow up on the original subject of 3.7/Bulleye shooting better groups that the old standby 2.7/Bulleye.

I don't find it surprising that higher charges of Bullseye provide better accuracy that the old 2.7 charge. This has always been true for me in many 38 Special/357 handguns over the years. Most often 3.3 - 3.5 grains have been the top performers, but I would never go over 3.5 for pressure reasons, accuracy be hanged.

Wait a minute, you say, isn't 2.7 the magic target load. Well, yes it it, but not because it is the most accuracy. It is favored by the Bullseye shooters for it's low recoil and low recoil means higher scores. The ten ring of a standard 25 yard pistol target is 2.5 inches with the X ring half that size (IIRC). So a perfect score would be all ten rounds in the ten ring with the number of Xs going to break ties. The traditional 2.7/BE over a full wadcutter is plenty accurate to win matches while providing low recoil, thus it's use.

The wadcutter is not the most accurate bullet either. It is used because it cuts clean holes in the paper target and that is important because if a bullet just barely cuts the line, it gets the higher score. I have found that quite often the traditional round nose bullet will deliver the best accuracy. Therefore, if I am not trying to hit something flesh and blood or cut the line of a paper target, I will use Lyman 358311 or it Cramer or Hensley and Gibbs equivalent just for accuracy fun. Most often the charge is 3.5/Bullseye which is top end.

So the bottom line is the traditional target load of 2.7/BE/Wadcutter is a dedicated purpose load and not necessarily the nee plus ultra of 38 Special accuracy. Not that many folks taking us Bulleye competition these days, so this stuff isn't common knowledge as it once was.

The notion of seeing how small we can get handgun groups is fairly recent undertaking. In past time, the object was to hit what we were shooting at. A handgun and load needed to have the accuracy needed to accomplish it's assigned task.

[Char-Gar]

Back in the day, all of us used factory wadcutter match loads for the Bullseye matches. Everybody had a favorite, some like Remington, others liked Peters (It was still being made), others Winchester and still others Western. We used handloads for practice, but went with factory stuff for matches as it was better.

[9.3X62AL]

This thread's drift prompted a thought.......it has been a very long time since I loaded or fired a wadcutter bullet--home-poured or out of a box.

[PS Paul]

A fun thread, I've REALLY enjoyed the pics of your revolvers there, Char. Thanks, man. Got any more?

[Char-Gar]

A fun thread, I've REALLY enjoyed the pics of your revolvers there, Char. Thanks, man. Got any more?

Sure...Here are a few more Smith and Wesson 38 Specials; Combat Masterpiece (1957), Model 64, 3" Chiefs Special, Military and Police (1931) and Model 14/K-38 (1979).

[Char-Gar]

A fun thread, I've REALLY enjoyed the pics of your revolvers there, Char. Thanks, man. Got any more?

Some Colt 38 Specials live around here also; 3" Detective Special, Officers Model ( 1947),5" Official Police (1954), and Trooper (1956). The grips on the trooper are the real deal Roper grips.

[Char-Gar]

A fun thread, I've REALLY enjoyed the pics of your revolvers there, Char. Thanks, man. Got any more?

I have handguns in other calibers as well, but I have a special fondness for the 38 Special and 45 ACP rounds. Properly loaded in good handguns, they will do 99.99% of what we want handguns to do, plus they love to please us with their accuracy.

I have also spent years shooting big bore boomers, but I have done major damage to my shooting hand and elbow in the process. So these days I enjoy my old friends the 38 Special and 45 ACP rounds. On occasion I take a 357 mag, 44 mag and 45 Colt for a spin at the range. The 32-20 sixguns are also a blast to shoot.

Various 9mm autopistols and 22 LR handguns get a work out as well. I shoot in a weekly falling plate match with an occasion bowling pin match thrown in for good measure. I need the competition to keep me on point and my skills honed. It is easy to fall into the fun of plinking and let the skills erode. Competition keep me concentrating on doing it right.

I would have to do a major accounting of my records, but my best guess the total would be at least a million rounds through various handguns over the past 50 years, but at least half of them would be 38 Special and 45 ACP. 95% would be cast bullets with the rest ball ammo in various 1911 pistols.

In all of my shooting, I have never worn out or damaged a handgun. I keep them clean, lubricated and serviced and feed them accurate loads within the pressure range for which they were designed and made.

Over the decades I have owned at least 200 hanguns, mostly sixguns and have enjoyed them all, although some are better than others. The only ones that have stayed around the house are the best of the lot.

Handguns are fun and useful, but my real love is the rifle.

[Outpost75]

I have ....a special fondness for the 38 Special and 45 ACP rounds.....they will do 99.99% of what we want handguns to do, plus they love to please us with their accuracy.....spent years shooting big bore boomers, but I have done major damage to my shooting hand and elbow in the process.....In all of my shooting, I have never worn out or damaged a handgun. I keep them clean, lubricated and serviced and feed them accurate loads within the pressure range for which they were designed and made.....The only ones that have stayed around the house are the best of the lot.

Handguns are fun and useful, but my real love is the rifle.

Well stated, Sir! We would be kindred spirits!

[9.3X62AL]

Char-Gar's activities sound a lot like my own, though I haven't competed in any venue for quite some time. I do try to keep the eyes sharp and the skill set honed, though. A million rounds fired? Not me, not yet anyway. Many thousands, yes.

That 1931 M&P X 5" looks very much like one in my stable--a pre-war 5" in 32-20 WCF. Fun revolvers, all of the K-frames. Thanks to Charles for the photos of these classic sideiron examples.

[PS Paul]

NOW I have a complete set of great photos for the n ext year to use as screen-savers!! Thanks so much!

Gotta say, I'm pretty jealous. Wheelgunner that I am, your collection is pretty sweet.........

[Char-Gar]

Outpost75....Yes, from what I gather we are indeed kindred spirit, but I suspect in large part it is because of the times we come from. These values and attitudes were pretty common "in those days". But, they seem quite alien to many of the younger set. The problem with experience and age, is we also tend to not be as patient as we should be with those who have a different approach to things.

9.3X62...Yes these old pre-war long action Military and Police revolvers are a delight and smooth as silk. But in deference to their age and material need to be treated with respect and a certain amount of tenderness. They are not intended to be hammered with endless +P loads, as many folks seem bent on doing.

Way to many folks seem determined to push all of their machinery and equipment to the limits, for no particular reason I can understand. I was raised by my Grandparents who were born in 1886 and 1891 in the days when "a dollar was a big as a wagon wheel". I was taught that nothing was "throw away" and everything needed to last as long as possible, for there may not be another. Therefore, it was to be used, but not abused. Again that appears to be a generational issue.

PS Paul...I am glad you enjoy them. I have never made allot of money, and had to to acquire these things carefully. Many were acquired at pawn shops on the lay-away plan. But these were time, when old sixguns were common and they had not acquired collector's status with the awful prices they command today. I could never have them at today's prices. I also did allot of trading with other guys who shared similar interests.

[9.3X62AL]

My 32-20 loads are STRONGLY segregated. The Marlin 94 CL rifle loads go into Starline brass, and are stored in the rifle ammo cabinet. The revolver-level loads for the S&W M&P go into Winchester brass--the loads for the Colt Bisley go into Rem brass, and both are stored in the handgun ammo cabinet. All three firearms vary dimensionally, and do their best work with loads tailored and sized to match their quirks and needs. So much for rifle/revolver ammo interchange.

[Thumbcocker]

Thank you for the photos and philosophy Char-Gar.