How many takers...?

[montana_charlie]

This is a follow-up to my thread in Special Projects http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20642 , and is meant to 'test the waters' to see how many others are troubled by 'short brass' for BPCR rifles.

As mentioned in my last post (in that thread), I did come up with a fixture that maintains alignment of the case, punch, and drill bushing while the case is being drawn...when using a not-very-precise shop press.

While Rick Kalynuik and I were working out this arrangement, we also started thinking along the lines of a tool that mounts in a reloading press. That endeavor is beginning to bear fruit, and we are almost ready with a prototype to test.

A reloading press eliminates the need for the 'alignment fixture', and would also cut out some of the individual steps needed in the 'shop press method'. But, the press would have to be a heavy duty unit.
I have serious doubts that my Lee three-hole turret model has the inherent strength to take the strain, but a press such as the old Lyman 'Spartan', RCBS 'Rockchucker', and (newer) Lyman 'Orange Crush' look like they have the muscle.

Guys who shoot fireformed cases without resizing are likely to have 'short brass', as are those (it has recently come to light) who have been using ceramic media in a rotary tumbler.

Besides simply not fitting the chamber well, the main problem is that short cases can also cause leading in the throat.
If you have been finding more lead in your gun than you think you should, compare the length of your brass with the (actual) depth of your chamber.

Yeah...cases can be lengthened by firing with heavy neck tension after full-length resizing, but I have found it takes four cycles to get 30 thousandths of stretch on freshly annealed cases. And, heavy neck tension doesn't produce very accurate ammo for me.
Considering that, the amount of powder and lead 'wasted' to stretch two or three hundred cases gets pretty expensive.

What I would like to find out is...

How many others have found their brass to be shorter than ideal for their chambers?
And, of those, how many would prefer to save their cases...rather than dumping it to buy new stuff?

CM

[45 2.1]

Almost all brass is too short for the chamber. What I want to know is:

The cost for this unit?
Caliber?
Amount you can lengthen the case, for example 45-70 to 45-90?

[montana_charlie]

Almost all brass is too short for the chamber. What I want to know is:


The cost for this unit?
Undetermined at this 'prototype' stage. But I started out looking for a 'poor man's solution', so you can bet it will be as low as possible. Making one costs 'a pretty penny'...making ten makes it much more reasonable.


Caliber?
So far, we are concentrating on the .45 family of BPCR cases. Different brands of brass require individual punch shapes, so there is more to be learned just to get the .45's taken care of. The punch dimensions I am using now are correct for Bell brass, and probably good for R.P. cases. They do not work on the thinner-walled W/W brass. For that, a fatter punch may be required.
The current punch might work with Starline (don't have any to test) but I suspect the nose would have to be lengthened some.


Amount you can lengthen the case, for example 45-70 to 45-90?
This tool is designed to lengthen a case by about 40 thousandths. The major diameter of the punch is the determining factor.

But the method was developed from Nonte's cartridge conversion book, and THAT information was geared for re-drawing .45/70 to .45/90. It required a punch of (about) .480".

CM

[Tom Myers]

I would definitely be interested in a device that would allow me to stretch brass to exactly fit the chamber. I shoot a 40-65 Ron Long chamber that is exactly 2.150" in length. When I finally manage to get cartridges stretched to 2.145", leading goes away and accuracy definitely improves. For some reason my rifle does much better with Winchester rather than R.P. or Starline brass.

If the device could be made to stretch Winchester 45-70 brass from 2.100" out to 2.140" then when they are formed down to 40-65, the brass should grow another 0.005" 0.007" and be quite close to filling the chamber. However I would need to purchase new brass as I doubt if the 40-65 cases could be expanded back out to 45 caliber, drawn to length and then reformed back to 40-65.

Tom Myers

[L Ross]

I'd be interested in being able to stretch cases reasonably. Almost all of my 45-70 brass is short. When I sort them for the longest and segregate them I get the best accuracy. BP cases definitely shorten upon firing, therefore even if I start with a new case trimmed to exactly the chamber length it ends up short after the first firing.
I discovered this frustration making new 40-70 SS cases from Hornady .405 brass. I am almost tempted to cut them .007" long and fire form them by breech seating thereby eliminating the risk of the bullet trying to force its way past the case mouth while actually being a few thousandths up the bore.

L Ross

[Woodtroll]

I'd certainly be interested in one that would work for the Winchester brass, which is all I use in my BP .45-70s.

Thanks for sharing this with us! Take care, Regan

[John Boy]

How many others have found their brass to be shorter than ideal for their chambers?

Charlie, in all 45-70 lots of W-W, R-P and Starline ... Yes, the cases are shorter than ideal but not a major impact on groups. But then again, if I had exact length cases, could be a major improvement on groups. Sorting is a pain

Starline 38-55 (1.25") cases are dead nuts on the money

And, of those, how many would prefer to save their cases...rather than dumping it to buy new stuff?
Yes, Save the cases

[montana_charlie]

Woodtroll,
Time will tell, but Winchester brass may not be suitable for drawing.

When I started this, I was using once-fired 45/70 cases from my neighbor (who doesn't reload). I would shove one case through the die (with the first punch I tried) and get 'some increase'...then the next case would tear in half. I had no idea what caused that.

After I had destroyed half of my test cases, I realized I had two brands of brass...DUH!
The punch was too fat for R.P. brass (tore 'em in two), and the W/W stuff was so thin-walled it acted in a totally different way.

I finally got down to a punch diameter that works with R.P. - and discovered the same size works with Bell...which is what I shoot. But I haven't gone back to working with W/W stuff...and I haven't tried any Starline brass.

I will (eventually) but I need to get some samples of both to work with. My neighbor doesn't shoot a box of 45/70 in a year, and he is tapped out of W/W empties.

John Boy,
Does that mean you would want a tool...or don't need one?

CM

[felix]

JohnBoy, if the neck tension is correct for the load to ignite properly, the case neck will expand immediately and THROUGHLY after the fact, so to speak. The load should be developed such that this happens. How do you know? If the groups are what you expect, then the neck expansion is taking place fast enough, no matter the neck length. You never want to have cases which are various lengths when crimping is the method used for "neck tension". Need more neck tension? Get, or turn one for, a smaller diameter expander rod/button. ... felix

[sundog]

Felix, go to chat room...

[Bear Claw]

M.C.

This is a dumb question I am sure but how is ceramic media changing the length of the brass?? Or did I read that wrong? I am making the switch to ceramic so I am curious.........:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

how is ceramic media changing the length of the brass?
Read about it here...
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9673
and here...
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9665