Test of Hubel Sabot and other ammo, with pics

[cpileri]

Here is the test: Set out w some loads being saved up for the USH. Hope you like it. Pictures accompanying.
C-

Date: Fri 26 July 2013
Elevation: 764ft
Temp: 95 degF
Wind: 7 mph (
Humidity: 47%
Platform: NEF/H&R Ultra Slug Hunter, chamber reamed to 3.5”, 24” fully rifled bbl, forcing cone polished and smoothly blends w beginning of rifling, stock and forearm weighted: balance point ~1inch forward of trigger , total weight 11-lbs w/o scope, hammer w/ offset spur installed
Scope: el cheapo BSA 1x25 red dot w 3 MOA dot, which held up surprisingly well
Target distance: 30 yds unless otherwise specified

Notes: gun was heavy, fired from seated “double gun” position (hand under forearm and resting hand/wrist on stand, gun to shoulder, body leaning in; pulling snugly both down and into shoulder. No shooting jacket nor shoulder pad though- too hot outside!) Buttstock has really squishy pad on it (*)which made every recoil impulse ABSOLUTELY PAINLESS, even when kick was substantial. In fact, the muzzle flipped a lot (need to move balance forward w/ more weight but wont do that until a proper barrel clamp is had) and stock slipped down off shoulder w each shot of heavy loads; but still absolutely no discomfort at all. NONE!

(*): this pad, in fact: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00081Q7E4/ref=oh_details_o04_s01_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Load: Brenneke 3” KO Sabot for sighting in only
Hull: Brenneke
Primer: whatever Brenneke uses
Powder & Charge: whatever Brenneke uses
Wad column: whatever Brenneke uses
Load: 10z Sabot slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll from factory
Notes: shot well, about 3” at 30yds, even though not trying too hard, no pictures. Cases did not eject nor extract, needed tiny wooden dowel tap to pop out. Wad petals sheared off probably from being a short load and hitting that forcing cone, but there is no pattern to it- some are just worn down, some had all 4 petals ripped off, and some had a couiple. See pic.

Load: Hardcast Lead slug, fullbore
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 48gr IMR 4227
Wad column: X12X over powder, then 3/32 cork wad, then .17 hard Nitro Card under slug
Load: 1043gr hardcast lead slug .729 diameter, rolled in 0.5micron hexagonal Boron nitride powder
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear BPI Over Shot disc, roll crimp
Notes: shot well, lots of unburnt powder in bore similar to same load described in my old thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199731-Safety-of-hubel-Sabot-in-875-muzzle-thickness-barrel/page5
Ejected easy.

Load: Hardcast Lead slug, fullbore
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 50gr IMR 4227
Wad column: X12X over powder, then 3/32 cork wad, then .17 hard Nitro Card under slug
Load: 1043gr hardcast lead slug .729 diameter, rolled in 0.5micron hexagonal Boron nitride powder
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear BPI Over Shot disc, roll crimp
Notes: This was my favorite load today! 50gr burned cleaner than 48, so I may go higher to 52gr. See pic, the three holes almost touching, though w such a big slug, its still abt 2 inches at 30yds. This may well be my go to load for this gun! I sighted in scope to this load and left it w/o adjusting for the rest of the day, letting bullseye float.

Load: Hubel sabot
Hull: Fed 3” plastic
Primer: fed 209A
Powder & Charge: 50gr A. Steel
Wad column: X12X, fiber wads to raise, .17 hard NC, Hubel Sabot
Load: 440gr .578 minie ball, lead cast
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: no overslug, roll crimp
Notes: picture attached. One sabot not recovered, one sabot recovered at abt 25yds w petals splayed unevenly (see pic), one sabot recovered at 10yds w petals widely splayed evenly

Load: medley of facotry rounds: 3” brenneke Black magic, brenneke 2.75” SuperSabot, Hornady H2K Heavy magnum sabot, and Sauvestre 3” Gros Gibier 329gr sabot (yes, the really expensive, funny looking one) (**)
Hull: per factory
Primer: per factory
Powder & Charge: per factory
Wad column: per factory
Load: 1&3/8oz Black Magic Slug, oddball 7/8oz .63caliber piston-like slug (***), hornady 300gr, Sauvestre torpedo fin stabilized slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: all roll, except Hornady which was star crimped.
Notes: That Supersabot zinged almost off the target. Wont be returning to that load in this gun anyway. I really wanted to harvest the Super Sabot and the Sauvestre since they are so odd. Maybe they’ll turn up someday.


(**) Sauvestre slug: http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=AM1845 yup, like $10/each. All in the name of science, of course!
(***) Super sabot: http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/h_supersabot.html

pics coming!

[cpileri]

Pic 1 is of the 1043gr load!77206

[cpileri]

Pic 2 is of the Hubel sabot load77207

[cpileri]

Pic 3 is a medley o77208f factory rounds, w Hornady H2K off near the edge.

[cpileri]

Pic 4 is the recovered components. With 2 3.5" RMC brass cases in the foreground, to the right front are the shorn petals of the brenneke KO sabot sight-in loads.
In the rear from left to right: Hubel sabots and hulls, the 48 and then 50gr loads for the 1043gr slug with one recovered slug in front of the 3 hulls loaded w 50gr; then the blue KO sabot slug hulls, then the medley of factory hulls.

77211

[OnHoPr]

Those supersabots are looking good again Ed fired out of a stout load. cpileri are you enjoying yourself, a 1000+ boolit and 50 gr of steel.:grin:

[jmort]

Must be blood-relative of Ed's. North of 1,000 grain slug. And "ABSOLUTELY PAINLESS." The Ultra Slug Hunter is such a good deal.

[cpileri]

How can you tell?
:-o
I am in fact, enjoying myself. Hard not to grin broadly with that load and no pain. It was IMR-4227 BTW, for just abt 1000fps and ~9000psi w that load, according to test by Armbrust (sp?).
C-

[Greg5278]

Carl, glad you like the 1043gr slugs. They really do Penetarte well, as tested at the Linebaugh Seminar. The one test went through 49" of Wetpack going only 1048 FPS. I seem to recall it went through 42" of Wetpack AFTER the first 6" and a 2+" diameter Beef Femur.
It shoots well and stays together better than most slugs, due to the alloy, and the very shallow lube Grooves. My other slugs aslo penetarte, but weren't designed for the same purpose. The 1043 was designed for a Customer in Alaska solely for Protection against Brown Bears. I advised him not to try and go with a 1200Gr slug as velocity would suffer.

Recoil wise the recoil isn't as bad as People think. The 922-1048gr loads are a slow shove in 9.5# Guns. It isn't nearly as bad a 3" Brennekes.
I was shooting some 1000gr ones offhand at 100yards and it was a nice "plinking" load for the shotgun. The gun was a custom 28" 7R rifled bore
Deerslayer Model, weighing 11.5# with 2-7X Leupold scope on it. The rough group on steel at 100 yards offhand was 4" or so. I am sure it would be MOA from a machine Rest.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[cpileri]

Yeah, I reeeeeeally liked them.
Like I said, the gun had lots of added weight. It was a little quirky having it recoil DOWN off my shoulder, with all the weight so close to the rear.

Anyone know a good barrel band that will go over the bull barrel? one slightly bigger is Ok since I can wrap a strip of lead under it to make both a snug fit and add weight to the fore-end, which i need to do to keep the recoil from pushing the stock down off my shoulder.

Mr. Hubel used one from an Enfield P-17, which i cant seem to find; but if there is one that does not require removing wood from the forgrip, I'd prefer it.

C-

[cpileri]

I was musing about whether or not this gun is heavy enough or “too heavy”, strictly from a perceived recoil perspective, and being somewhat a matter of taste, sure; so I found this in the Nitro Express forums:
table from John Taylor's book "African Rifles and Cartridges" from the late 1940's which shows the weights of Double Rifles from the various brit makers. The "New Weight" shows that they lightened their guns as new and better barrel steels became available.

RIFLE ..Normal Weight ..New Weight
Caliber ..Double bbl ..Double bbl
600NE ..16 to 18 lbs ..14 1/2 to 15 1/2 lbs
577NE ..12 1/2 to 14 lbs ..11 1/2 lbs
500NE ..11 1/2 to 12 lbs ..10 1/2 lbs
470NE ..11 to 11 1/2 lbs ..10 1/2 lbs
465NE ..10 3/4 to 11 1/4 lbs ..10 1/4 lbs
425WR ..11 lbs ..10 1/2 lbs
450/400NE ..10 to 10 1/2 lbs ..9 1/2 lbs
375 Mag ..9 1/2 lbs ..8 3/4 lbs

So I decided to compare the weights to the kinetic energy of the round (I could convert to momentum (KgxM/s) but it all is relative anyway.

Pre-WW1 era: KE (I) vs Gun weight (kg)
RIFLE ..Normal Weight ..ft-lb (standardized load)
Caliber ..Double bbl
600NE ..16 to 18 lbs ..8221 (900gr@2050fps)
577NE ..12 1/2 to 14 lbs ..7010 (750gr@2050fps)
500NE ..11 1/2 to 12 lbs ..5850 (570@2150)
470NE ..11 to 11 1/2 lbs ..5140 (500@2150)
465NE ..10 3/4 to 11 1/4 lbs
425WR ..11 lbs ..5115 (410@2350)
450/400NE ..10 to 10 1/2 lbs ..3732 (400@2050)
375 Mag ..9 1/2 lbs ..4337 (270@2690-I assume 375H&H magnum)

The 11lb weighted USG pushing a 1043gr slug at ~1000fps generates 2317fpe ,or the 615gr slug at 1600fps= 3497.
Now if I push out one of those Hubel-Level loads, say, 600gr@1850fps= 4561ftlbs,or 715gr@ =9925fps.

I would guess what we are looking at is a chart that British gunmakers, over the decades they produced fine guns, found a balance between weight and recoil/shootability, and weight and marketability (as in “By Jove! That’s too heavy to lug on safari, my good man!”). Sorry for the bad humor.

So the heavy USH compares Ok, depending on how I load it. Factory heavy loads like the Brenneke Magnums give ~3500fpe, which the double gun makers of old seem to think requires a 10-lb gun. With the heavier loads used as examples, upwards of 10&1/2-lbs to over 18Lbs would be “comfortable”. An 11-pounder should get a shooter to 5100ft-lbs with all the comfort an old British gunsmith can offer.

C-

p.s. of course, this just has to do with totalweight and recoil, not inherent strength in the guns! The weight in the old doubles was in the barrels and actions, not added on as pounds of lead like in the USH. The old doubles were STRONG.

[jmort]

Where does one get a 1043 grain mold/slug? Thanks

[cpileri]

Accurate molds in their catalog page 14, has the 73-900S; and i believe this mold is one of those modified to have an extra lube groove, thus the extra weight.

[jmort]

I have see that, I was thinking of that in a TL version, something like a 73-1000TL. Thanks

[cpileri]

Mr. Jmortimer.
Sending you a PM.
C-

[cpileri]

I am prepping for test #3, which will be a new thread.
I have a handful of new (to me) loads, but i think i will be stopping until the 3.5" RMC brass comes in- why?
Ok, here's what i am thinking:
Chamber is 3.5", and best 'rifle' accuracy is when the projectile is on or just ahead of the lands, so it doesnt enter crooked nor shave off a piece of projectile on the very square edge of the chamber/rifling interphase.
Similarly...
This chamber has a smoothe and blended forcing cone, but the projectile, esp the lead ones, can still enter crooked from shorter shells. So i am going to do a chamber casting and try to match up overall loaded ctg length such that the projectile, if long enough, is on or just before the lands. or else, that the projctile encounters thelands while the base is still supported by the brass/plastic case, keeping it in alignment w the bore.
Does this make sense?
Sound like a good idea?

C-

[cpileri]

How pretty is this cartridge?!?!?!
77973
Its a 775gr solid copper slug in a 3.5" rmc case.
OK, its not a 700 NE. But its still nice looking- so much s that I might not have the heart to shoot it. If I do, i will recover that bullet for sure.
Its loaded w 50gr Lil'gun, and X12X, fiber fillers and a Hard Card under the slug; BTW.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Musketeer Brother Cpileri, are you trying to scare me now, Ok I give up, I would not shoot that beauty, pretty as it is.

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.
" One for all & All for one "

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/ ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK

[Carryacolt]

Cpileri,
I have been asking why the dedicated slug barrels even have the "force cone". It only adds to the gap between the end of the shell the start of the rifling - lands and grooves. There are a few that post here that have custom barrels, and there is no force cone in them. My feeling is by doing so, it eliminates another variable that effects accuracy. I want to get a custom 20ga w/o the force cone but just haven't gotten there yet.

[cpileri]

You know, that's a good point. A dedicated slug barrel would be better off like a bore rifle, with no forcing cone; the chamber just ends with a little step-off and the bore starts. Cartridge and chambers would have tight dimensions like any other rifle.

And accuracy would suffer similarly to firing a 45 Colt in a 460 S&W magnum.

So now i am really looking foward to getting those 3.5' cases and developing loads the correct OAL for this thing.

C-

[Carryacolt]

Cpileri,
Did you get the copper slug from Greg?? He had some a while ago but I think the were 780gr plu or minus. They would make a great home defence round.

[cpileri]

Yes, Sir!
Not cheap, but i just had to have one!
;)

C-

[cpileri]

Regarding reply #11
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207869-Test-of-Hubel-Sabot-and-other-ammo-with-pics&p=2326032&viewfull=1#post2326032
about the weights of big guns, above:
So i managed to add some weight to the forearm, and its now pushing 12+lbs, with scope. SO it ought to be comfortable in the manly, British, double gun sense to fire up to 5800 fpe or even 7000fpe if you take the "new weight" column.
Calculating just a few loads from the "inspired" threads and accumulated list of loads, i got:
600gr Dixie Slug @ 1850fps (w 132gr Re-17 or 90gr IMR 4227)= ~4500fpe. and
730gr @ 1650fps (using 82gr 4227)= 4400fpe
and onward...
RMC 3.5” brass
85gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, X12X, 2 (two) x 1oz Brenneke KO slugs stacked, 1600fps = ~2500fpe EACH (=5000fpe)
140gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 437gr BPI sabot slug, 2600fps = 6500fpe
220gr Re-17, 420gr in BPI sabot, roll crimp, 2900fps =7800fpe
200gr Re-17, 715gr Jacketed fullbore slug,roll crimp, 2500fps = 9,900fpe- THE winner!

Keep in mind, these loads need psi testing. But even if they are pressure safe, looks like some are still going to be uncomfortable from a 12lb gun. of course, I am basing this comfort only on the assumption that the weight of old double guns is indicative of what folks found tolerable from a recoil punishment standpoint.

Test #3 very soon!!

C-

[hubel458]

The 4227 loads of 90gr tested peak pressure same as 4759
and 130gr Re17 about the same. For plastic cases.ED

[cpileri]

So I am just being a big pansy?
;)
C-

[hubel458]

Your Just careful. But the 90gr 4759/4227 and 130gr Re17 all average about 14,700.
Which is why I like them, lots of room to work.

Also over the years we found that 4759 better than 4227 as
4227 misfires if cases and charge get cold. So I don't use it now.

And with our sabots all using lighter slugs(350 to 500 gr) than the tested 600gr Dixies
there is lot of room for safety.

And I'm finding that for some guns(wide lands, smaller bore) that 4759 is better
than Steel.Easier on sabots. more accurate.Ed

[cpileri]

So, were these loads all in the 14.7kpsi range:

Top RE17 loads in NEF- Don't go below 100gr of Re-17 in 12ga cases!
3.5" RMC brass--385Gr JKT --220gr Re17
3.5" RMC brass--Hubel Sabot with 400gr --- 220ge RE17
3.5" RMC brass--715 gr JKT and 720 gr hard lead-- 200gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--870gr hard lead- 180gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--1040gr hard lead - 170gr Re17

??
thx again for being so generous w your data!
C-

[hubel458]

No those brass ones with RE17 running 18-25,000 psi. Which cases handle ok
and my Nef extracted ok.Ed