Question time .......

[HiVelocity]

I know that you "Swagers" are a dedicated group.

"Do any of you sell any of your products?"

I thought thebest way to help promote swaging, short of doing it myself, was to buy and use your products. But, it appears that I can't find anyone who may sell some.

I'm primarily interested in .224 and 452 diameter projectiles. I would appreciate a PM.

Thanks,

HV

[customcutter]

Unless someone has the proper FFL and has paid there $2500 ITAR (SP), they are looking at serious jail time for selling. This applies to cast boolits also IIRC.

CC

[BT Sniper]

Yep, been discussed a lot before, there is a bit of red tap involved with selling projectiles we make.

There are those of use that might give you "gift" of a few bullets. Then if you where so inclined to give them a gift of some brass or lead or etc. in return, well then....

It will be difficult to find anyone that can sell the bullets we make, someday.......???

BT

[Nickle]

Yup, exactly. That said, I'm legal. I swage bullets, including .224 & .452. Can do .355 as well right now, and shortly adding .357, .264 and .308. Corbin says the dies are almost ready. Reducing .355 & .357 to .351 for 351 Win SL & 35 Win SL when the bullet reducing die gets done, which isn't likely to be that soon. I intend on adding 40 & 44 (.429) a little later.

I can sell them, and a friend of mine (Lee Euber) already does sell them, has been for more than a few years now. He might do .224 (and might not), but does .243. I doubt he does .452.

Seeing that material prices aren't overly cheap, and swaging takes time (labor cost), I'll warn you that buying them from us won't be overly cheap, at least cheaper than factory bullets. I'm doing it for a couple of reasons. One, I don't plan on getting caught short next shortage. Two, I plan on eventually ending casting bullets for lead bullet loads, and using swaged instead. Will be lubing with Hi-Tek or such.

Oh, ITAR is $2250 these days. But that isn't that much difference.

[R.Ph. 380]

Why would I sell something I waited over a year just to get started doing. You couldn't afford what I would charge. That said, swage dies are really a bargain when you take that first set of bullets load them and shoot them. Priceless......................................... ...........

Bill

[HiVelocity]

I've been reloading and casting for over 40 years, never heard of ITAR, or that one required an FFL. Sounds like more government BS to me. I guess those .40 empties will be going into storage till I can afford 45 dies. Thanks for the heads up, guys!

If anyone would like to PM me regarding a "gift"; I would appreciate it, and would gladly return their generosity.

HV

[Nickle]

If only that was true. ITAR and Type 06 FFL requirement that is.

Nope, not BS. Yup, some folks are ignoring it. Pretty dumb thing to do, if you ask me. Penalty? I've heard 20 years plus a huge fine involved. Get caught, and bye bye for a long time.

http://pmddtc.state.gov/

[Nickle]

By the way, those requirements are for those that manufacture firearms or ammunition. Manufacturing components counts too. That does include cast or swaged bullets.

[Prospector Howard]

What about people that make reloading equipment, like swaging dies, molds etc; like Bt Sniper. I've wondered whether the gooberment has any special license or red tape for going into that type of business.

[303british.com]

Selling bullets isn't so much of an ITAR thing as it is an FFL thing.

I'm in Canada, and was selling my bullets to people in the States. We do not have the number of restrictions that you guys do WRT selling firearms to each other or shipping bullets to private citizens. We have fewer export laws. We can ship firearms or bullets to the States. The only exceptions are explosives and certain items which made the restricted/prohib list. Bullets isn't one of them.

[Nickle]

I for one, am not sure if they are required to get a Type 06 or 07 FFL. Not sure if they're required to register for ITAR either.

I do know I'm required to.

[Nickle]

I just checked.

DDTC is vague as always.

Reloading equipment falls neither on firearms (isn't a gun) nor ammunition (not ammo either). So, I would say ATF doesn't require a license. However, do not take that to the bank. Call them and ask them. They aren't always right, but usually at least pretty close.

[SquirrelHollow]

I just checked.

DDTC is vague as always.

Reloading equipment falls neither on firearms (isn't a gun) nor ammunition (not ammo either). So, I would say ATF doesn't require a license. However, do not take that to the bank. Call them and ask them. They aren't always right, but usually at least pretty close.

It's not required for reloading tools, component manufacturing tools, or even firearm manufacturing tools. They're just tools - not the end product.

Dig through the Federal Code all you want... you won't find it listed anywhere.

Bullets, primers, cartridge cases, powder, and even shot wads are defined as "ammunition" (and thusly require an FFL to manufacture for commercial sale). Reloading and swaging tools, however, are just pieces of steel, aluminum, and plastic.

[303british.com]

It's not required for reloading tools, component manufacturing tools, or even firearm manufacturing tools. They're just tools - not the end product.

Dig through the Federal Code all you want... you won't find it listed anywhere.

Bullets, primers, cartridge cases, powder, and even shot wads are defined as "ammunition" (and thusly require an FFL to manufacture for commercial sale). Reloading and swaging tools, however, are just pieces of steel, aluminum, and plastic.

Yes, that's very true. I suppose what aggravates me is the Free Trade Agreement that Reagan and CDN PM Mulroney started! Things are worse now. Before this agreement was signed, Canadians and Americans could buy stuff via mail order with few problems. Up here, we're like the little brother or poor cousin - we have to wait until equipment and components are distributed to US markets before we get them. The wait is longer as a result.

Back when I could order stuff out of the classified section of Field and Stream, things were so much smoother. Free Trade has made things worse. Then 9/11 happened.

With that long winded post over, my point is: US bullet makers have to have all their permits and not forget to renew them.

[HiVelocity]

Prospector Howard,

OMG! Please dont give "them" any ideas.........lol!

Again, thanks all for keeping me up to date. I guess I'll be saving up for swaging in the near future.

HV

[Lizard333]

Message sent. Bartering isn't illegal.

[Nickle]

Yup, and I'll tell you another big shocker.

It isn't 100% sure ITAR registration is actually required of manufacturers that aren't importing or exporting.

Got an honest ATF agent my way that's become a friend. That agent says they're frustrated themselves over the inability of DDTC to give out consistent straight answers on this ITAR issue. Says it makes it embarrassing for the ATF to get bad info from them, then turn it around to FFLs. Let alone an FFL paying those kind of $$$ for no valid reason. Agent has heard both ways recently, and isn't happy about bad info getting out, especially if it hurts FFLs. We've got some good agents in this area.

[Nickle]

Message sent. Bartering isn't illegal.

Bartering should be considered as "not for the purpose of making profit".

Just make sure to keep yourselves legal folks, it's less work and less hassle than getting yourselves out of trouble. Cheaper too.

[dbosman]

Should be and are - isn't part of the tax laws. Except... Only in real estate a like for like barter is not a sale, as far as the IRS is concerned. There is a like for like exemption in the tax laws. Like for like has some really wild variations that stand until someone pisses of the IRS auditor.

Both parties in a barter are supposed to count their "profit" as income and pay appropriate taxes on it.
Check any legit bartering organization and you'll see they post the IRS requirement. Even most of the ultimately bogus ones post it.

[Wolftracker]

I considered going into business but this ITAR thing gives me pause, plus it would be difficult to make a profit with the time and equipment I have. Mr. Corbin pointed out to me that the key here is the phrase "International Trade." Seems logical but who says laws and bureaucracy follows logic.

[DukeInFlorida]

Companies which are created for the express purpose of making a product, such as swaged bullets, expect to make a profit.
Profit is simple math.... You take selling price, and subtract cost of manufacturing... and you have profit.

As others have said, my swaged bullets have NO PROFIT.... Therefore, even if I had the proper licensing and permits (including the ones with my local town), I would not be in any position to sell any of my bullets.

But, then again, I am not a commercial company.

I am a HOBBY swager.

Hobby swagers don't have a profit motive.
I swage bullets because:
1) It's fun to do so
2) It provides me with high quality projectiles (bullets) which I can shoot to my hearts content
3) I can swage bullets when the store would otherwise be out of what I want.
4) My cost of swaging is almost zero. The brass is free (range pickups), the lead is almost free (I have some energy costs in heating it up to make cores, but other than that, it's all scrounged from shooting berms), and the dies certainly cost something. But written off over years and years, the cost of the dies, prorated into swaged bullet costs, is almost zero. My labor is certainly free.
5) I can create variations in bullet weight, when I won't be able to get those oddball weights at the store.
6) I enjoy swaging as a relaxing part of my hobby.

[R.Ph. 380]

Companies which are created for the express purpose of making a product, such as swaged bullets, expect to make a profit.
Profit is simple math.... You take selling price, and subtract cost of manufacturing... and you have profit.

As others have said, my swaged bullets have NO PROFIT.... Therefore, even if I had the proper licensing and permits (including the ones with my local town), I would not be in any position to sell any of my bullets.

But, then again, I am not a commercial company.

I am a HOBBY swager.

Hobby swagers don't have a profit motive.
I swage bullets because:
1) It's fun to do so
2) It provides me with high quality projectiles (bullets) which I can shoot to my hearts content
3) I can swage bullets when the store would otherwise be out of what I want.
4) My cost of swaging is almost zero. The brass is free (range pickups), the lead is almost free (I have some energy costs in heating it up to make cores, but other than that, it's all scrounged from shooting berms), and the dies certainly cost something. But written off over years and years, the cost of the dies, prorated into swaged bullet costs, is almost zero. My labor is certainly free.
5) I can create variations in bullet weight, when I won't be able to get those oddball weights at the store.
6) I enjoy swaging as a relaxing part of my hobby.

Ditto...............

[DukeInFlorida]

I am very sure that BT Sniper, Corbin, and all of the other tooling suppliers are NOT concerned with any of that, with regard to selling tooling.
It's the product made from the tooling that's illegal to sell without the proper licensing and paperwork in place.


I just checked.

DDTC is vague as always.

Reloading equipment falls neither on firearms (isn't a gun) nor ammunition (not ammo either). So, I would say ATF doesn't require a license. However, do not take that to the bank. Call them and ask them. They aren't always right, but usually at least pretty close.

[Prospector Howard]

So the gooberment leaves the tool makers alone. Quite surprising actually, they sure like to stick there noses into everything else.

[plus1hdcp]

So the gooberment leaves the tool makers alone. Quite surprising actually, they sure like to stick there noses into everything else.

Please don't give them any ideas!!! Actually I am as surprised as you are.

[Theditchman]

What about if you make and only sell to an FFL holder...how does that work

[customcutter]

Folks, I wouldn't take any thing that somebody posted on the internet as gospel. The Feds and Judge are going to rule however they want to. Even if the Judge rules in your favor, you are going to spend a small fortune defending it in court. It is much cheaper to have the proper FFL and ITAR paper work, then you can sleep at night, and don't have to worry about being dragged into court by some zealot of a LEO working for the ATF. And as far as I'm concerned that would include trading/bartering, etc. No I don't have an FFL or ITAR paperwork, but I have considered mfg gun parts and ammo. Right now it ain't worth the hassle to me.

Just my .02 and I didn't sleep at the Holiday Inn last night:bigsmyl2:
CC

EDIT: I wouldn't even trust an ATF agent unless they put it in writting.

[DukeInFlorida]

The manufacturer, for PROFIT, also has to have the proper ATF licensing, no matter who they sell to.


What about if you make and only sell to an FFL holder...how does that work

[Nickle]

Lots of correct info here.

ATF agents can be a hard call. In my case, my local agent is a local (not a transplant), and is pro-gun. Not all of them are, not even close. So, I trust my local agent, but not others. And, I'm a retired civil servant myself (DoD), so we have a common basis. The zealots could care less about my back ground anyways, so that's a clue.

Now, I have done some looking during my recent basis.

ITAR registration is MANDATORY for all Type 06 (ammo) and Type 07 (firearms) manufacturers. I've seen that it writing, had to do a bunch of digging. Like I said, DDTC's website can be hard to find info on.

Swaging (or other reloading) equipment doesn't qualify for the requirement, or the ATF FFL, best I can see.

Components do, including jackets. At least, under manufacture. If you're making them, need a Type 06 or 07 FFL, and ITAR. If you're just buying and selling them, you don't. Export out of the country, whole different situation, of course.

[JRPVT]

Just finished reading the Purpose of ITAR, section 120.1(a)regarding who it applies to for the umpteenth time. If you do not import/export these articles, you do not need to register with ITAR. You may wish to include a sticker on your product to inform purchasers that ITAR applies to the product(such as high end CNC machines). The Corbins do it on their sites, we can too. But, that is just my read of it, read it yourself and see what you get out of it.

[monmouth]

Companies which are created for the express purpose of making a product, such as swaged bullets, expect to make a profit.
Profit is simple math.... You take selling price, and subtract cost of manufacturing... and you have profit.

As others have said, my swaged bullets have NO PROFIT.... Therefore, even if I had the proper licensing and permits (including the ones with my local town), I would not be in any position to sell any of my bullets.

But, then again, I am not a commercial company.

I am a HOBBY swager.

Hobby swagers don't have a profit motive.
I swage bullets because:
1) It's fun to do so
2) It provides me with high quality projectiles (bullets) which I can shoot to my hearts content
3) I can swage bullets when the store would otherwise be out of what I want.
4) My cost of swaging is almost zero. The brass is free (range pickups), the lead is almost free (I have some energy costs in heating it up to make cores, but other than that, it's all scrounged from shooting berms), and the dies certainly cost something. But written off over years and years, the cost of the dies, prorated into swaged bullet costs, is almost zero. My labor is certainly free.
5) I can create variations in bullet weight, when I won't be able to get those oddball weights at the store.
6) I enjoy swaging as a relaxing part of my hobby.

Great post, I look forward to swaging soon.

[DukeInFlorida]

The Corbins do NOT sell bullets.

Let's put it in a perspective that you may understand. . . . . . .

The FBI, the CIA, and the ATF are, RIGHT NOW, particularly LOOKING for people who knowingly or UNKNOWINGLY may be supplying war materials to the TERRORISTS.

Chew on that tidbit for a bit......

I don't know about you, but..... I'm not going to SELL anything to anyone in the way of projectiles that could be considered "war materials". Go right ahead if you want to. But at the very least expect a visit... They usually take everything related. Ask Mooseman how they handled his LEGAL gun and the ammo.

Read whatever you want into these documents. Just don't be naive when it comes to how this government handles their mission to deal swiftly and strongly with those who "support terrorism"... Crazy? Ummmmmmmmmm Go ahead, have at it, and let us know how that goes......


Just finished reading the Purpose of ITAR, section 120.1(a)regarding who it applies to for the umpteenth time. If you do not import/export these articles, you do not need to register with ITAR. You may wish to include a sticker on your product to inform purchasers that ITAR applies to the product(such as high end CNC machines). The Corbins do it on their sites, we can too. But, that is just my read of it, read it yourself and see what you get out of it.

[JRPVT]

I do not mean to imply that we are possibly going to come under more scrutiny by the Feds, we already are. Almost all regulations are very clear in their purpose and scope(written by the best lawyers), so why would this be different? If they wanted us;swagers; to be included, it would say it clearly. And it does not.
There would also be a note on the ATF website including ITAR registration to sell our product.
Again, my read of it.

[Wolftracker]

Yeah, they could be using our fear against us. I'm sure there are swagers out there who are selling their product without ITAR registration. Where are the case histories and convictions, then? Ambiguity in a law is frequently considered by the courts as making said law un-constitutional. Any lawyers out there who can tell us if this is just an urban legend? Don't expect the truth from government agents. Does anyone tell you you made a mistake in your favor on your taxes? No. They'll also gladly take your ITAR fee, whether you really need to pay it, or not.

[customcutter]

Just back up and read the 2nd Amendment. Then look at how the government is trying to read something else into it to restrict your rights to own a firearm. For that matter look at any of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights and tell me that the government is trying to erode your rights.

It's pretty clear to me that the government wants to remain as vague as possible on any issue so that they can interpret it the way that they want to. Try getting anything in writting from an ATF agent or office.

Go ahead and sell bullets, cartridges, whatever to whomever you care too. I know for a fact that ATF has had a table set up at the gun shows here in Fl, and they are actively walking around the shows in plain clothes watching what is transpiring at the shows. But then again maybe I'm just paranoid, OH wait a minute the government is mining cell phone info for mega-data and claims they told our Congress men about it. Or maybe they really aren't having the IRS investigate anyone with the words Tea-Party, Patriot, Conservative, etc in their business title. Maybe Holder isn't responsible for Fast & Furious, not investigating the IRS, or the DOJ for lying to receive search warrants for News Reporters doing their jobs. Maybe the DOJ didn't actively fund protests is Fl concerning the Trayvon Martin case. Maybe Homeland Security didn't buy a Bazillion bullets and targets of Old Men, children and pregnant mothers. Maybe they haven't flagged my post.

OK, I am just a little paranoid when it comes to the Feds. I love my country, but I seriously Fear my Government.

CC :bigsmyl2:

[Prospector Howard]

After reading a bit about ITAR, I think if I was making swaging dies and selling them as a business I'd be very reluctant to sell anything outside of the US without registering and paying the ITAR fee, or better yet not even sell outside the US. It says that anything defense and military related technology including services and tecnical data is covered under their regulations. It kind of makes you laugh though to think of an idiot in a cave somewhere swaging bullets and reloading them as a major problem we need to be concerned with, but things are getting crazier by the day. The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said: 2016, Hillary Clinton/Michelle Obama for the Dem. ticket. If that doesn't scare the poop out of you nothing will.
Lots of correct info here.

ATF agents can be a hard call. In my case, my local agent is a local (not a transplant), and is pro-gun. Not all of them are, not even close. So, I trust my local agent, but not others. And, I'm a retired civil servant myself (DoD), so we have a common basis. The zealots could care less about my back ground anyways, so that's a clue.

Now, I have done some looking during my recent basis.

ITAR registration is MANDATORY for all Type 06 (ammo) and Type 07 (firearms) manufacturers. I've seen that it writing, had to do a bunch of digging. Like I said, DDTC's website can be hard to find info on.

Swaging (or other reloading) equipment doesn't qualify for the requirement, or the ATF FFL, best I can see.

Components do, including jackets. At least, under manufacture. If you're making them, need a Type 06 or 07 FFL, and ITAR. If you're just buying and selling them, you don't. Export out of the country, whole different situation, of course.

[Nickle]

Reloading equipment, casting equipment, swaging equipment are exempt from this, as they are not listed as controlled items.

Firearms, ammunition, ammunition components are listed. I'd have to check, but I'm fairly certain firearm parts are too. Jackets certainly are, as are bullets.

So the item is regulated and controlled.

Now, as to whether the manufacturer must register.

http://pmddtc.state.gov/registration/wmr.html


Per ITAR §122.1, any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with DDTC. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

Notice they talk about "defense articles". That doesn't mean you're selling to the DoD, it means the items are regulated under ITAR. Notice the part that you still must register, even if you don't export.

Don't think for a micro second that I like this, or even close. But it is the law.

And, JRP, your local ATF agent does know this. Remember, I do know her well enough to know. She's a decent person, and believes in educating folks over prosecuting innocent mistakes.