Ho-ray!! US Army plans switch to ‘green’ bullets

[HarryT]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/24/getting-the-lead-out-literally-u-s-army-plans-switch-to-green-bullets/

"The Army projects that the use of green 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm ammunition could eliminate the purchase of 3,683 metric tons of lead between 2013 and 2018."

Looks like the price of lead may go down and the price of copper is going to skyrocket.

[tomme boy]

they have been planning this for a long time. Too bad the bullets suck from what I here. Accuracy sucks. Nice pencil holes right threw whatever gets hit.

[blackhawk4545]

For our Armed Forces men and women sake, I hope they stay with lead. Nice, clean paper-punch holes don't stop a bad guy very good.

[montana_charlie]

For our Armed Forces men and women sake, I hope they stay with lead. Nice, clean paper-punch holes don't stop a bad guy very good.
The current manufacturer of the SS109 bullet says that when existing stocks are used up, no more will be available.
I wonder if any European plant will still be making them available ...

CM

[LynC2]

I hate it when the "politically correct" and politicians get involved in military matters when they normally know so little about said subject. If the "green bullets" perform better than our present ammunition, great! If not, then we shouldn't even consider using it. One thing I am certain; it will cost more. :dung_hits_fan:

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

they have been planning this for a long time. Too bad the bullets suck from what I here. Accuracy sucks. Nice pencil holes right threw whatever gets hit.

You have received bad information, I'm afraid. There is no appreciable performance between the M855 (regualar issue since the Gulf War) M855-LF and M855A1. I was involved in the testing. The M855-LF actually displayed a propensity to expand that casues some concern about violations of expanding ammunition agreements, thus the M855A1. The M855-LF remains, but for training purposes only.


For our Armed Forces men and women sake, I hope they stay with lead. Nice, clean paper-punch holes don't stop a bad guy very good.

Technically the DoD hasn't shot lead in over 100 years. That is to say, Mil Spec FMJ projectiles are designed and specified in such a way as to eliminate, for all practical purposes the properties of lead. The only real reason lead has been used until now is cost effectiveness. Materials suitable for projectiles with a similar density to lead are quite expensive in the quantities required to supply DoD and of course NATO.

I wouldn't worry too much about the "boys and girls". A 62gr M855A1 delivered between the base of the throat and belly button has proved to be quite effective in supressing return fire and is usually a DRT shot.

[skiforce75]

Anyone with a flaming bob in their chevrons likely knows more than any "internet guru" will ever hope to know in their entire lifetime about munitions. Good on ya, Master Guns. Thanks for your service. MSgt Ski, USAF

[John Boy]

Anyone with a flaming bob in their chevrons
MSgt Ski, USAF ... The use of the "shell and flame" by the Ordnance Corps dates back to 1832

[HiVelocity]

This won't last. First of all, going green will be more expensive compared to conventional ammo. When the military realizes it takes several (more) hits on a bad guy to put one down, they'll nix this idea.

Plus, not all the military services abide by one services ideas. If my son or daughter were in combat, I would want them to have the best ammo available to do the job right the first time.

Just food for thought.

HV

[tomme boy]

M855 LFS is what I thought they were going with.

So have they figured out the fouling issues and got the pressures to a manageable level? Just because someone cleans a weapon so there is no carbon, doesn't mean there is not copper fouling. Copper fouling is going to raise the pressure much more than carbon.

And why not the MK318 and MK262. Both are way superior to these new greenies.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

M855 LFS is what I thought they were going with.

So have they figured out the fouling issues and got the pressures to a manageable level? Just because someone cleans a weapon so there is no carbon, doesn't mean there is not copper fouling. Copper fouling is going to raise the pressure much more than carbon.

And why not the MK318 and MK262. Both are way superior to these new greenies.

I'm not aware of any fouling issues with either projectile. Could you be a little more specific?

The MK318 has been in use by the Marine Corps since about 2010, it is considered weapon specific. It also has a bit of stigma, being open tip. You and I know the difference between open tip and hollow point, certain Europeans (particularly signatories to Hauge 1899, Article III) do not recognize the difference. STANAG 4172 of the NATO Treaty will likely prevent it from ever being standard issue or a replacement for MK855 , LF or 1A. Anything not designated "ball" will always be "Special Purpose" and never general issue

MK262 is simply too expensive for anything but Match Ammo.

[tomme boy]

I was told that on higher round rifles where the throat is rough from lots of rounds, it is getting major copper fouling from the much harder bullet. This was increasing the PSI and was really wearing out the whole upper. Bolt failures are being one of the more common problems from the extra PSI being generated.

I know the whole whole open tip, hollow point thing. But they are still being used. VERY successfully.

So what are they going to do about the .50 ca and up?

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Yes, last I heard they were still being used by MARSOC in the SCAR. VERY successfully may be an overstatement. The change wasn’t made because the M855 exhibited inadequate terminal performance, on the contrary. They perform about the same in terms of the wounds they create. The Mk318 is purported to shoot better from the shorter barrel of an SCAR than Mk855. In an M4 there is not a noticeable difference.

There is some anecdotal information that suggests the Mk318 may “hit harder” but Pathologists and experience suggest otherwise. It may just be the “latest and greatest” or the “Hollow tip” designation coloring accounts. When the Mk855 replaced the Mk193, initial reports were that it created far more devastating wounds but just the opposite is true. The 855 replaced the 193 in order to eliminate the inhumane fragmenting design flaw of the Mk193.

The real reason we use the Mk318 is because it stabilizes well from the short barrel of the SCAR and remains stable for approximately 600 yards. It also has a reputation for maintaining stability after impact and resists yaw. The mechanics tend not to support anecdotal claims of superior terminal performance. But I believe you create your own reality, so if you have confidence it works better by all means use it.

Just understand, the US is not a signatory to Hague 1899. The US voluntarily complies with the aspects agreeable to us. One we choose to ignore is the prohibition against aerial bombing (who doesn’t?) However, our choices for arms and ammunition are constrained by STANAG (Standardization Agreement) of the NATO Treaty. Because NATO contains signatories to Hauge 1899 and the US is bound to the Standardization Agreement general issue ammunition for DoD will always be FMJ Ball. Regardless how well something else works. At least as long the US remains in NATO.

The .50 seems to be here to stay for quite a while, in a few specialized weapons. Contrary to the urban myth it is not a war crime to direct fire 50 BMG at personnel, provided the projectile is FMJ. My area is small arms and direct fire (machine gun) crew serve weapons. Anything larger than 12.7mm diameter or explodes on impact is out of my wheelhouse.

[Duckiller]

As stated military ammo for small arms is not supposed to expand. Barnes, Hornady and maybe Speer make all copper bullets. After some serious development work they now expand. It is probably cheaper to make none expanding projectiles. Military ammo I fired at Ft Leonard Wood all had copper jackets, ie FMJ. Don't believe rifle barrels care what is under the copper, if anything. I know no one trusts the government, especially this administration, but remember people that have to use this ammo also test it. It probably isn't necessary to wear a tin foil hat all of the time.

[tomme boy]

The solid copper bullets do increase the PSI. Part of it being they are light for caliber. So they have to be longer to maintain the weight. Since they are longer, there is more bearing surface to the bullet. This will increase the PSI because of more drag. That is why the grooves are machined into the bullet to reduce the PSI.

[w5pv]

Stars and Stripes for ever,I thank both of you for your sevice to this great country.

[Defcon-One]

Ho-ray!! US Army plans switch to ‘green’ bullets...


I wouldn't celebrate yet!

I suspect that if this is in the works, it is part of an Obama/EPA planned ban on all Ammunition containing Lead in the US. Once the military has swithced we are in trouble!

The EPA can do this with Obama's support by just continuing its efforts to label lead as TOXIC and proceeding with the next logical step. No need to bother the House or Senate. (There is a precedent: Ever shoot a goose or duck. You can't use Lead for that, anymore!)

No lead in ammo will not be good for any US resident, especially the ones like you and me who love this website and casting our own!

[a.squibload]

EPA has acknowledged that it is constrained by law from regulating ammunition.
Yep, surprised me too.

[Defcon-One]

Obama was constrained by law from running for president. He is president!

Yep, surprised me too.

Let's all hope that I am wrong and you are right!

DC-1

[CountryBoy19]

This won't last. First of all, going green will be more expensive compared to conventional ammo. When the military realizes it takes several (more) hits on a bad guy to put one down, they'll nix this idea.

Plus, not all the military services abide by one services ideas. If my son or daughter were in combat, I would want them to have the best ammo available to do the job right the first time.

Just food for thought.

HV

What info do you have that indicates it takes several more hits to put a bad guy down? What are your credentials to back this up?

I was "over there" when this stuff started hitting the SF teams. I worked very closely with those teams both on their camps and at the range working on special weapons and prototyping things. I can tell you my observations of this new "green" ammo.

#1 They loved it. They never reported a lack of effectiveness on target etc. That would be corroborated by the fact that the 5.56 does most of it's damage when it tumbles upon entering the body. The hardness of the round is irrellevant to the tumbling. From all indications I've seen it is just as effective on soft-tissue.
#2 The penetration ability on hard-targets/materials is no comparison to steel core or M855. We went from armor plate steel targets that hadn't been replaced in months and had no indication of needing replaced anytime soon to targets that needed repair/replacement on a weekly basis as soon as the teams started using the new ammo. The cratering on armor plate (5/8" thick AR400) and penetration on thinner armor was impressive.

These rounds will give our soldiers better pentration ammo that will still tumble and cause severe damage to soft-tissue. I was impressed, the guys doing the fighting were impressed, and everybody over there is pretty happy with the new ammo. So why are you pitching a fit trying to tell us what they would want and what you would want IF your son was fighting. Do you really know that? Or you're just telling us what you THINK?