First accuracy tests of my Pedersoli Gibbs

[oldracer]

Well yesterday was the initial testing to see how well those expensive store bought bullets that came with the gun will shoot. I decided on 80gr of FFG and CCI primers as a standard to start with. I set the target at 100 yards. I decided to shoot 3 different setups, first powder and bullet with no wad. Second powder, bullet with an ungreased fiber wad. Third was a greased fiber wad on top of the powder, plain wad then the bullet. Powder was added by a full length funnel and not compressed. The bullets were seated by the weight of the cleaning rod only. I wiped the barrel, cleaned the fire channel with pipe cleaners and fire a couple of caps to insure all was clear of any oil.

Test one: No wad was a failure as the powder would not ignite? Fired several caps and no ignition. Blew out the barrel with my CO2 tool. Cleaned the barrel to insure nothing was inside and all was clear?

Test two: Loaded same as above but added the fiber wad and seated it with the cleaning rod then added the bullet. 1st shot was an inch above and to the right of center. Wiped the barrel with one wet and one dry patch. Next shot was 1/2 inch lower. Repeated 3 more times and the next two shots were touching and last was about 1 inch to the right due to wind. Let barrel cool down to near ambient.

Test three: First shot was about 2 inches high and 2 inches to right of center. Tried one more and it was 2 inches off the first right and high. So I tried just a plain wad after wiping and the next shot nearly toughed the first shot. Let the barrel cool to ambient again.

Tried loading with no wad one last time and same result, no ignition which I found strange? So I blew out the barrel again, reloaded with a wad and fired this bullet to clean out the barrel.

So it appears that a single wad with no lube might be the way to go, at least for now. Any ideas or comments?

[dondiego]

That is very odd. The wad should have no affect on the ignition of the powder. Something else is going on. Are you seating the bullet firmly down on the powder? You said that you just seated the bullets down by the weight of the rod only????? I have never been able to seat a bullet with rod weight only.

[fouronesix]

As to the failure to fire? The only thing that could cause that is something in the breech end or flash channel to block the fire. The powder-wad-bullet stack would have nothing to do with it. I'd guess something like gooey fouling/lube that is getting pushed down during the cleaning/swabbing process.

The only way I know of to absolutely ensure that doesn't happen after cleaning/swabbing is to turn the rifle upside down with the muzzle slightly elevated. After swabbing/cleaning pour a little denatured alcohol down the barrel and let it run out the nipple. Put a dry cleaning patch on a jag and briskly run it up and down the bore a few times to blow out junk and finish evaporating the alcohol. You can hear the air rush in and out the nipple.

[Fly]

My question, do you have stock Pedersoli sights.My Gibb at 100 yd shoots high.I can't ajust the sight any lower.
So I must shoot 60 grains to lower the shot.I have had this rifle for some time & have never got to really
play with it like I want too, other than 100 yd,s.

Fly

[Fly]

You might take the barrel from the stock & pull the side screw & run a pipe cleaner threw there also.

Fly

[oldracer]

Thanks for the replies everyone. When I blew out the load that did not fire, I did not get what appeared to be a full 80gr of powder out of the end of the barrel? There was burned powder residue in the breech end of the barrel which I cleaned out as I thought that might be partial ignition? I pull the barrel to do this, remove the nipple and then use Balistol to wipe the barrel with and in the case of both non fires I did pour some in the barrel and then flushed it out the ignition channel. I also use sections of pipe cleaner to make sure the channel is clean with oil or other residue. I had done this prior to the first load I tried which as I noted did not fire.

The sights are stock Pedersoli and are set to about 90 on the tic marks. My gun was made in 2008 so I am guessing the tang sights would vary from year to year? As for the screw in the side, Lee Shaver said to never pull it as it is not made for cleaning and is sealed by the factory so no leakage occurs with a 120gr load if you want to go that high.

I think the wad, which is a 0.458 diameter cut from the same punch I used for all my 45-70 loads, does fit the bore snugly. The bullet does not however and it is 0.449 diameter so it does slide down the barrel and the weight of the rod will seat it. According to the long range muzzle loading website and also talking to Lee Shaver, this is normal. I was surprised to see this as I am used to 0.459 diameter bullets in my Sharps BPCR guns but the bullet is coming in from the breech and not the muzzle. I also do not, at least yet, compact the powder although I plan to try that in the future as some folks in England said their accuracy is better in their Gibbs with about 4 or 5 ponds of compression?! I have no idea how I will measure that as with my patched round ball rifles I just bang the rod down and there is deformation of the ball. I do not want to get any nose deformation on those bullets as they have a pretty long nose! Sort of like Jimmy Durrante!

[fouronesix]

I pull the barrel to do this, remove the nipple and then use Balistol to wipe the barrel with and in the case of both non fires I did pour some in the barrel and then flushed it out the ignition channel.

That seems like it might be the problem- Ballistol is oil- albeit a water soluble oil. Even moose milk (mix of Ballistol and water) could also cause the problem. Nothing wrong with swabbing/cleaning with moose milk but all the residue must be removed from the breech end and flash channel and nipple. The sure fire way to do it is to use a little denatured alcohol as a final flush with the nipple in place and briskly run a jagged dry patch in and out to blow out the gunk and evaporate the remaining alcohol- it will evaporate very quickly by doing it this way.

[Junior1942]

You probably have a "patent breech." Think upside down beer bottle. You're cleaning the barrel/bottle and not the breech/bottle neck. I use a brass brush which fits in the breech/bottle neck. This like to have driven me nuts on my Traditions 32 Crockett Rifle until I figured out I wasn't cleaning the entire barrel.

[Boz330]

I got this method from my shooting buddy who adapted it from Lee Shaver's method. BTW it is typical for your first shot to go high. I clean with a .416 brush with a wet patch wrapped around it then turn it over and brush again. Next a dry patch wrapped around the brush and turn it over and repeat. The theory is that the brush will catch the fowling rather than push it into the patent breech. Next I use a special jag (knurled) on another rod and wrap an oiled patch around it and run that down the barrel. The oil is Mobil 1. Then the drop tube & powder. Before loading the wad and bullet I lean the rifle to the right side and hit the lower part of the barrel several times with my hand to make sure powder gets into the cap channel. This is an IMPORTANT step. Some guys use several grains of 3F to make sure it gets in there. Next I load an 1/8th inch cork wad and set my PPed boolit on top and seat both at the same time. It does take a little more than rod pressure to seat. I then press down on the load but couldn't tell you how many pounds though. I always feel a little give and try to do it the same every time. My buddy has shot both with and without a wad and he said he can't tell any difference.

My shooting buddy is anal retentive to a fault and really saves me a lot of the hassle. F to Fs are almost non-existent with this method. My shooting buddy has been on the US Team the last 2 world meets and beat Lee at the last match at our club, which is no small feat.

Fly, you may need to go to a taller front sight to get down to 100yds. If you go to an aftermarket rear sight it even gets worse. The closest that they shoot those rifles in competition is 200yds and I've never shot a match that close, it has always started at 300yds. As far as your 60gr load you might make sure that is completely filling the patent breech. That breech is pretty deep and if you aren't filling it then you might have an airspace between the boolit & powder. I use a 9MM brush to clean the breech area after shooting so it is pretty small compared to the bore diameter.

Oldracer, you might check out this thread, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?198548-What-happens-when-you-get-rocket-enginners-and-ML-shooters-drinking-beer

Bob

[oldracer]

Thanks for the additional info. Yes, the rifle does have the patent breech and I plan to use the idea of the brush and a patch the next time I go out, probably next Wednesday. The idea of taping the powder by leaning the rifle over is a good one and I'll make sure to try that also. The cleaning rods that came with the gun are different than the others I have as the rod is male threaded, opposite of the way most of mine are? I read about using a 22 caliber brush with a patch to make sure the breech gets cleaned so I'll check to see what I have or have to buy.

The funnel that came with the gun touches the bottom of the patent breech and you can tell when it is empty as there is a metal sound. I also pull it out before loading the powder to see if there is any residue in bottom of the tube and so far it has been clean.

[Fly]

Thanks Bob some great info my friend.

Fly

[oldracer]

I am thinking the cap channel must run right to the bottom of the patent breech? Later on today I'll see if my bore scope is long enough to get to the bottom but I think it is. The idea of the small brush and patch seems to be the way to go.

Have you seen any difference without using the oil coating after wiping the barrel as opposed to using it? I will put that on my list of things to try anyways.

[Boz330]

I am thinking the cap channel must run right to the bottom of the patent breech? Later on today I'll see if my bore scope is long enough to get to the bottom but I think it is. The idea of the small brush and patch seems to be the way to go.

Have you seen any difference without using the oil coating after wiping the barrel as opposed to using it? I will put that on my list of things to try anyways.

No I haven't. I got such good results from the beginning I didn't figure that I should try and fix something that wasn't broke. My trigger time is so limited that I just can't try everything. Right now the gun shoots way better than the nut behind the butt is capable of.BTW the Mobil 1 is a Shaver trick. He originally started out using the old Breakfree but found out the new stuff doesn't work near as well so went to the synthetic.

Years ago I asked a buddy who was in the Army to get me some Breakfree since they used it for cleaning the main guns on tanks. He brought me a gallon. Do you have any idea of how long a gallon lasts cleaning small guns. Any way after my buddy stole the idea from Lee he imposed on me for the remains of the gallon I had since 1985 for use in his Gibbs. I tried to get it back when I got my Gibbs but he wouldn't let go of it. So I have to use the Mobil 1.

I don't clean the patent breech between shots just when I'm finished.

Bob

[oldracer]

Well I got the Harbor Freight bore scope (also called inspection camera) out and ran it down the barrel. The opening in the breech for the patent breech was too small for the angled attachment to fit? So I had to look straight on and what did I find....the fire channel comes in from the side about half way down the smaller opening of the breech. I ran a pipe cleaner in to verify it and there it was. So I agree that swabbing and lubing the bore is the way to go so I'll try that next week when I go out. I'll stay with the non lubed fiber wads and 80gr of powder through the long tube to make sure powder starts at the very bottom of the breech. I might try a little compression, I'll see how the testing goes first.

I did find the barrel on the Pedersoli Gibbs gets hotter much faster than my Sharps 45-70 guns did? I don't feel the additional 12gr of powder (68 in 45-70 and 50 in the Gibbs) would cause that much but I might be wrong?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

my theory on the wad vs no wad is that , it forms a better air seal and that in turn blows out the flash channel as you force the air trapped in the barrel thru the powder and out the nipple

when i load a patched round ball , i load them tight i can hear the air coming out the nipple

an experiment might be to use the CO2 discharge tool to blow the channel between shots but after you have swabbed the barrel , so fire , run your lube patch , dry patch , blow , drop powder , seat boolit