4350/4831 Look alikes?

[Pilgrim]

I'm using H4831 in a double rifle, and will be needing a different powder for another rifle that is on its way. Are there any surplus powders in the burn range of IMR4350 or IMR4831. The cartridge case that will be used is a 7mm very similar to the .280 Rem, except with a rim. TIA Pilgrim

[NuJudge]

I have been using some WCC 852, which has a burn rate near 4831, but it's no longer available, and I'm almost out.

Accurate Arms occasionally makes available batches of non-standard powders. One is in the right range: Accurate Arms #85
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

[BCB]

NuJudge beat me to the draw...WC-852 (My particular lot is #47287). If you can find any of it--buy it. Wish I would have purchased more way back then! Good-luck...BCB

[Ricochet]

That was a defective slow burning lot of WC852 that was rejected by the Army. WC852 was the Ball Powder equivalent of 4895, loaded in the .30 M2 Ball rounds in the same charge weight for the same nominal velocity and pressure. Surplus WC852 was the original H380. Olin had serious teething problems getting Ball powders to come out with their intended burning rates in the early days.

[JCherry]

Ricochet,

What is the source of your information? Not to say you are wrong, there definately was something goofy going on with a "fast" and a "slow" WC-852 powder.

I have (some where around here) a military load data document I got from Bartlett years ago listing information about the military load using WC852 in 30-06. It listed the M2 150 grain bullet with, I think, 60 grains of WC852. On this document is a blank to list the port pressure in the M1 Garand. That area was blank. Bartlett also indicated that WC852 load as originally being restricted for machine guns only it was never intended for the M1. As I recall I heard that somewhere someone delinked some of that ammo, (Murphy at work as normal) used it at a match and reportedly it bent the op rods on several M1s.

I never did get any of the WC-852 "Fast" Powder. I have had very good results with the "slow" powder in bolt guns and luckily, enough left to last for a few years more.

If I can find the document and you are interested I'll try to send you a copy of it.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[BD]

A number of years ago I did some side by side velocity comparisons using H4831, IMR 4831 and the "slow" lot of WC-852 in three Swedes on the same day. The 852 (s) fell right in between the 4831s. I also got Stan Watson to do a pressure test using the slow lot of 852 and 120 grainers in the 6.5x55. The pressure test also put that lot right in with the 4831s. Unfortunately I'm down to my last 8 lbs or so, and there doesn't seem to be any more available. I have not found any other surplus in this burn rate range.
BD

[Ricochet]

Ricochet,

What is the source of your information? Not to say you are wrong, there definately was something goofy going on with a "fast" and a "slow" WC-852 powder.
Look at the military load info in the back of any of the recent editions of Frank C. Barnes' Cartridges of the World for the nominal loads with WC852 loaded in identical charge weights for identical ballistics with IMR 4895. The info's all reprinted from two government pahphlets listing the ammo specs. The other stuff about the "fast" and "slow" lots I got from info on the surplus powder dealers' sites, discussions on the old Shooters board, and from Tenney L. Davis' The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives, which discusses the development of the Ball powder manufacturing process and the problems they had getting predictable results. Also, I used to have (and dearly wish I could find) a table of all of the WC powders in the 600, 700 and 800 series with their grain dimensions, percentages of deterrent and nitroglycerine, relative burning rates, flame temperatures and a couple of constants used in internal ballistics calculations. WC852, as I recall, was just slightly slower than WC748 (Winchester 748) and of course had only one entry as the specifications were for what a powder was supposed to be like at the intended condition, not when it came out of the manufacturing process with faster or slower burning rates.

Referring to the tables in the back of Cartridges of the World, the nominal loads for the .30 M2 Ball were: 50 grains of IMR 4895, or 50 grains of WC852, or 45 grains of CMR-100, all with the same standards for velocity and pressure. I'm sure there were small adjustments routinely made in practice for varying powder lots, but you can see that 60 grains was a pretty major deviation from the norm.

[alamogunr]

[QUOTE=Ricochet;232770]Also, I used to have (and dearly wish I could find) a table of all of the WC powders in the 600, 700 and 800 series with their grain dimensions, percentages of deterrent and nitroglycerine, relative burning rates, flame temperatures and a couple of constants used in internal ballistics calculations.

If you find it, is there any chance of posting it here?

Also no one has mentioned Data Powder 85. The Accurate section of Powder Valley lists it and says it is similar to 4350 and 4831. I bought an 8 lb jug but have not tried it yet.

[Ricochet]

If I ever find it (it went missing when my wife transformed a bookshelf I was using into a Beanie Baby display several years back), I'll figure out a way to share it. Wish I had comparable info on other manufacturers' powders, too!