Building a HD Shotgun!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thought I would start this thread to see how many other people have built themselves a defense shotgun. I bought a Rem 870 Wingmaster to do this. It was a plain jane model but the wood was very nice and after looking at it for a few months decided I did not want to chop it up!

I went to a friends gunshop and traded it in and actually did pretty good on the trade in. Compared to what I originally paid for it! I bought another Rem 870(Express model) with the pistol grip. This saved me $100 getting the pistol grip model, as I am rebuilding it with Magpul furniture and a Scatter Tech Ghost ring sights!

I will take some pics as I put the shotgun together and install the sights for people interested! Here are some canned pics off the NET. Yes I know the magpul stock is mugly and looks some what HKish but I always liked things made by the Master Race!:shock:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Greg: I have been trying to get a set of Magpul Stocks for my Mossberg 500 since the SHOT Show.

I have actually held both the 870 and 500 with these stocks and they are definitely the hot ticket.

My gun came from Big 5 Sptg goods in Santa Barbara and my Father in law bought it for $212 on sale. Cheapest M500 they make. It had the 18" bbl. and short magazine. I recently put a 20"bbl and full length mag from Brownell's on it . The Barrel has a Williams open sight and a gold bead to be replaced by a Green FO sight when I get around to it. This gun is one of my "3 gun" guns..

The biggest problem I had was attaching the sling to the front of the gun. I ended up getting a UTG clamp on mount with a short section of rail on it. I D&Ted the rear edge of it for a 10-32 and screwed a Uncle Mikes stud into it. It works OK, but I still want the Magpul furniture. I was able to mount a Streamlight TLR-3 the smallest Streamlight, because a TLR-1 wouldn't fit in the space available. I've got no Strobe on this gun which I would really like to have.

I try to mount most of my slings onto the left side of the guns. This allows the gun to lay flat on your back which is a preferable way to carry it. So far it wasn't possible with this gun but with the Magpul furniture it will be.

Also when doing classes the gun positioned this way makes for more comfort while standing around. On a gun with a magazine that extends well below the bottom of the action like and AK or AR or my Scout rifle, it is almost mandatory.

Incidentally those orange stocks on the picture above are supposedly for guns dedicated to "Less than Lethal" ammo. I can't wait til Magpul does a run of multicolor furniture. A nice Day-glow pink or green would be well received by the competition crowd. Can you say Fuuuushia?

Good luck on your build.

I know Hans Vang if you need him.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
Thanks for the info and pics!!! Dang,if I had deep pockets I would LOVE to send my shotgun to Mr Vang, his work and parts are the best in the business! However I'm going to have to do this my self on the old Bridgeport!

I actually was going to go the Mesa Tactical route with the adapter that would allow me to use a Magpul grip and PRS stock like one my AR-15 rifles! However that was even a little to high! I think with the Magpul furniture including the barrel/mag extension clamp that has the sling attach point(ambi!) and the Scattergun sights I can make a weapon that would even work for one of the home defense classes!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thought I would show what I was starting with. This was the cheapest I could go and still get the barrel length I wanted (18") and the factory 2 shell extension! This gun holds 6+1 and is good to me. I also ordered a Mesa Tactical 6 shell carrier which is good quality.

I'm trying to build this as economical as I can but still use the best parts I can afford. I hope to sale the take offs to someone who would like the pistol grip type configeration!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Have not received parts yet but downloaded instructions for Scatter gun sights and did a rough layout. Can double check once the receiver is in the mill vise! Took parts off shotgun I did not want and sold them! Now I've got to wait for the brown truck!

[seagiant]

Hi,
My sight parts came in today from Brownell's. I went and did the Scattergun front sight as it uses epoxy to attach although I will reinforce it with a 1/16" roll pin drilled and set thru. I have to go to ACE for a few things and then will install the rear sight tonite hopefully!

[EMC45]

Looking good!

[KCSO]

Why? For home defence youwill need maybe 3 shots at most, a standard 870 packs 5 and in the home a simple flashlight taped to the bottom of the barrel and you have all you need in a light easy to manage package. So we add a mag pul stock, extended magazine and sling mounts, tactical sling and whoop de doo fore end and have a 10 pound TACTICAL shotgun that won't do the home defence thing one bit beteer at 10 times the cost. Nw if you intend to compete in 3 gun and shoot 250 rounds a day or more this might be what you need, but the lat shotgun instructor course I went to the high man shot a stock plan jane 870 and whipped the backsides off the fancy TACTICALS.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thanks fellas,having fun! As far as the build I'm 6'8" tall and have a 15" LOP or more! A regular stock does not work for me unless I want to get beat to death! The Magpul stock is adjustable for length and rise. The forend has stops fore and aft for your hand and is set up to take different attachments if you so desire!

I'm not an LEO or ex-SEAL so don't get regular training even though I have had small arms training. What does this mean? It means as an admittedly novice at killing people, (that is what were talking about) that mean me harm, I feel that I need MORE ammo and probably all I can get! I feel the biggest sin is to run out of ammo before the fight is over! My shotgun has a factory 2+ extension for 6+1 and then on top of that will have a 6 shot sidesaddle on the receiver.

As far as the sights go you will use those at longer distance and also for slug shooting. The HD/Tactical shotgun is a very versital weapon and I hope to take some training with it to learn how to use it better! YMMV!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well, got the rear sights on and think they will be fine no problems,but was using brand new taps and drill bits! ACE Hardware had no 1/16" roll pins for the front sight so will have to pic one up tomorrow.

Hopefully the stock set will come in and I can finish this up and go shoot!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here ya go KCSO, a nice basic Rem.870 Police model! Pretty shotgun!

By the way this model comes with an upgraded carrier dog spring (really a Rem 1100 spring) and a steel non MIM extractor! I will probably make those upgrades to my Express model along with an aluminum mag follower!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here's a nice pic showing the Scattergun sights on a Wilson Combat "Border Patrol" model I just installed on my Express! I think they look good. I did not care for the "wings" on the other rear sights!

[KCSO]

My only addition to the 870 or to yours would be screw in chokes and a i/c choke as we have found that it wil tighten the buckshot patterns and give you another 5 yards and will not hurt the slug shooting. The sights are a worthwhile addition for a combat shtgun where you will switch between slug and shot but not really necessary in the confines of a home. I do not like pistol grip stocks on the 870 because they make putting on the safe a chore adn you will want to put the safe back on as the threat deescalates. I learned my lesson the hard way with an 11 pound Winchester with a full house tactical conversion an 11 poound monster that about killed me doing ready drills and carrying all day long.

[xacex]

Started with this..
77172

Finished like this..
77173

That is an ACE stock with a folding block. Original ak wood and handguard cap, repro american pistol grip, tapco G-2 trigger group, and a MD-20 drum. It will fire faster than I can shoot. It unloads 20 rounds of 12 gauge in a hurry.

[B R Shooter]

As an aside, if I'm not mistaken, once you put a pistol grip on a shotgun, it is then a pistol.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well my stock came in,still waiting on the side saddle and magpull sling attachment that goes with the stock. I couldn't wait and decided to put it together to see what It looked like. Still have to find a 1/16" roll pin and drill the thru hole in the front sight! Here's what I've come up with so far!

Now that I have the stock on and can bring the gun to my shoulder I REALLY like this ghost ring sight! It just comes into focus enough to see it but does not get in the way (no wings) of your overall vision!

http://www.bballpin.com/remington-870-with-custom-cerakote-magpul-mesa-tactical-vang-comp-lpa-ect-video_cf787d8da.html

[EMC45]

I have some spacers for the Magpul stock for LOP in the PIF section here Seagiant.

[seagiant]

Hi EMC,
Well Magpul gives you as many as you can use with the stock. I am now adding a 3/4" wide hard rubber spacer between the butt pad and slider end to get some more LOP! This is of course with using all the 1/2" spacers it will take! I'll show some pics when done.

Thanks anyway. You might want to keep them in case you sale it to a tall guy and he needs them!!!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well I lengthened the stock by putting a 3/4 piece of hard rubber between the butt pad and the slider it attaches to! This makes it a 15 LOP which is still shorter than my measured LOP of 15.5 but feels good for a HD gun. If I find after shooting it awhile it is to long I can just pull a spacer! For me paying just under a $100 for this stock it was a no brainer!

[jmort]

Being almost a foot shorter than seagiant I actually like a 12" LOP, like some of the SASS shot-gunners use.

[seagiant]

Hi J,
I think that would be considered short (12") for a guy 5'8" tall. 13.5 was considered "normal" but now I think normal for a field shotgun has creeped up to close to 14"! I shoot trap,skeet, 5 stand and sporting clays. Usually your trap gun will be a little longer than the others like sporting clays because the presentation is different. Meaning guns that are mounted before the call like trap, can be longer as there is no worry of snagging your vest on the mount!

I'll have to shoot the Rem 870 to see how I feel with how it is set up! Still waiting on more internal parts to upgrade to the police internals and the Mesa Tactical 6 shot caddy!

[jmort]

I'm 5'9" and I guess I have short arms, but around 12" LOP seems to speed things up in SASS and in my world. Standard LOP is around 14" but I like it around 12" to 13" max

[seagiant]

Hi,
I thought I would talk about cost of this project. I actually went into this to save some money on a build and build a economical HD/Tactical shotgun that would have pretty good parts maybe not the best money can buy but still of a very good quality.

Of course some savings are realized by doing the gunsmithing myself. I might as well list what was done and what is syill left to do for someone thinking of doing the same thing! I traded in another shotgun on this tactical model to get mainly the barrel i wanted and the 2+ mag extension. Remington factory extensions are regarded as one of the best available! I will list the price though as a person buying this cash and starting the build!

Remington Pistol Grip Tactical w/18.5 CYL barrel $450
Magpul stock,forend and mag ext sling clamp $150
Scattergun Tech front and rear sights $100
Mesa Tactical Shotshell Caddy $45
Fortmann's left hand safety $18
Aluminum Magazine spring follower $13
Remington steel (non MIM) extract, Rem 1100 carrier dog spring, $24

Ok, with some shipping for parts thrown in you could call it an easy $800 altogether or even a hair more! Oh yea I did sale $35 of take off parts! This is without any labor tacked on and of course hopefully a little better product than just buying a plain jane shotgun off the rack? Something to remember is top name gunsmiths are selling a shotgun very close to this for over $2000!

Ok, I don't have the backboring and the cerekote finish but see little else I'm missing on my "cheap" build!

[Artful]

I'll play... Remington 870 - 2+ mag extention - surefire forend - Synthetic stock - sidesaddle carrier - fiber optic front sight
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Remington8703gunshotty_zpsb267d37e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/Remington8703gunshotty_zpsb267d37e.jpg.html)

[jmort]

Those are two nice looking guns. I like the AI&P Tactical HD/Duty for $665.00. From his site:

"This is my newest model. The AI&P Tactical HD/Duty. This stands for Home Defense / Duty as this weapon will serve perfectly for either. This is a basic solid fighting shotgun. Heavy zinc parkerized 870 Magnum receiver is upgraded with the heavier carrier dog follower spring as found in the 870P. The bolt is upgraded to an 870 Police bolt. Wilson Combat over size safety is added. The Barrel is a factory parkerized 18.5" fixed modified choke with factory install Meprolight tritium bead. The Stock is the Remington LE 13" LOP with R3 pad. The forend is the Speed Feed LE. I have install the Wilson Combat 2 shot extension, this is the universal model without sling plate since I have added a Midwest Industry single point sling attachment. Note: you do not need a sling for HD but most tactical training courses require one so this weapon is set up for one. It would work perfect with any single point Slings.

You can also get this with the Speedfeed IV-S 13" LOP for the same price listed above. Changing to other stocks may change the price so contact me for quote.

The weapon no longer comes with the MI plate as I use the Mesa single point attachment. Look at the HD/duty to see it and I will get the proper picture on this page soon. It is attached through the rear trigger pin.

The cost of this weapon is $665 plus shipping. If you want this weapon set up for two or three point slings subtract $15 and I will simply not use the Mesa single point. I will use the Wilson 2 round extension with the sling plate of your choice and I will add a quick detach stud to the rear stock.

You can add a Messa 6 rd shell holder for $60 or the Mesa 8 rd shell holder for $80

Add the Surefire 618FA forend for $270 or if you want to add any of the other Surefire weapon lights just ask for a price."

http://aiptactical.com/HD_Duty.html

[seagiant]

Hi J,
I guess I look at things different than other people. I can and do alot of my own gunsmithing after a few not so good experiences with "Master" Gunsmiths! That is really not a bad price on that gun IF that is what you want and it will work for you!

After doing some serious tire kicking on HD shotguns and what will work for me,I came up with what I built and it still cost me $800! Ifeel though that I have very good quality parts,(sights,extension,stock,and internals) and that if I decide to do a Tactical or HD course the gun will hold up. It is not that heavy, has very little to nothing really hanging on it (a light is still up in the air) and unlike most other shotguns,this one fits ME!

[jmort]

"...this one fits ME!"

That is most important. Doing it yourself is satisfying. Just throwing out a similar concept from an 870 armorer. As you noted, Scattergun Technologies charges a bundle for a gun like yours, and it would not necessarily fit you like a glove. I like the two tone look of your 870. The 870 is an all time great, as AI&P says: "I don't know the life expectancy of one of these weapons as I have never seen one worn out if cared for properly."

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well Greg,,, We finally know what "Sea-GIANT" means... At 6'-8" fitting you to anything would be a challenge.

My gawd how do you work in tight spaces of a ship?

On yoru LOP you are right in the ballpark for someone in your altitude. 15-15.5 is what is normal and I have a guy in my club that is 6'6" and his Kreighoff K80 trap gun is so long I can't even mount it.. Are your trap and skeet guns set up this way?

The only consideration is to not get the LOP too long and hinder operating the action of the gun. On a pump not so much, but on a levergun or bolt action rifle is does matter.

My LOP for my shotguns is 14 .25 -14.5" however on the rifles I cut things down to 13 3/4" so I can run the bolt or lever with out having to break my cheek weld. The Cowboy guys run short stocks specifically so they can run the levers easier.

Obviously on an O/U shotgun you don't have to run an action so I can get by with a longer stock.

What you have done to your Rem 870 is pretty much what is happening to my M500..

My gun was given to me by my FIL. He bought it on sale at Big 5 for $212 new ! I spent $116 on the barrel and mag tube from Brownell's and got sights in the deal, I can get the 'racers' price on Magpul furniture from Brownell's for $112 when they come in. The light I had to use is a Streamlight TLR3 which was $69.95 on sale from LAPG. And the UTG mount was $15 at the gun show. I also did a higher safety which resulted in my having to completely disassemble the gun so everything got de-burred and slicked up while going back together. I just have a Butt Cuff on it for extra shells $9 anywhere, but the gun sits with a bandoleer hung on the muzzle that I would grab anytime I grab the gun, so I'll Have plenty of ammo with me .

I ordered a .662 1oz. round ball mould from Mid South yesterday for $71 including shipping, and some 1/4" felt wads from BPI to cushion them.

XS650 has pretty much got the loads beat so if my gun shoots anywhere as well as his does I'll be good to go for all my 3 gun shooting. My bore is .730 so the .662' ball and WAA12 wads should be a perfect fit.

Interesting how we both went down nearly the same path at the same time.

We must think alike! :mrgreen:

I am only 5'11"!

Randy

[1Shirt]

I can't disagree with KCSO. However, I see nothing wrong with a short (but legal length) side by side double bbl for home defense. Have serious doubt that I would need over 2 shots for home defense, and agree with a mag light taped under the bbl. Not pretty, but think it would be quite effective.
1Shirt!

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
Thanks for the info! I almost went for a Mossy 500 myself, because being left handed the safety is more user friendly. However I have been shooting a LH Rem 1100 for years. It is my sporting clays ie all around gun! So I'm more used to that platform. I bought a LH safety for the 870 so should be fine on that. I really like that light and mount you have, even though admittedly not really taken over by the gun mounted light theory! I guess if used correctly would be fine.
I also have a .730 muzzle so your round ball info should be good for me! Let me know how they shoot when you get to it! I'm still waiting on some parts and will up date as things come in and work progresses for anyone interested!

[seagiant]

Hi 1Shirt,
I actually agree with KSCO also, but as I am not "normal" a normal shotgun does not really work the best for me. I like better sights than just a bead and I like a stock that actually fits! I am also left handed so that throws another fly in the ointment! I also believe in taking plenty of ammo to a fight,a 3 shot auto or double barrel is a no no for me because of that! I'll stick my neck out and say in a real fight the KISS principle is USUALLY best, up to a point!

[jmort]

LOP is critical for HD. Anything the SASS participants do is for speed, and for a shotgun, the '97 pump is preferred. I own 500's and do not have a financial interest in AI&P, but he notes that:
"I recommend reduced LOP stock or adjustable stocks if you are under 5"10" tall."
I'm 5'9" with average/short arms.
And at Dusty Bunch site, they recommend the following for their '97's
"HIGHLY SUGGESTED STOCK MODIFICATION CAN BE ADDED TO ANY OF THE ABOVE LEVELS FOR $75 STOCK SHORTENED & A PACHMAYR CUSTOM FIT PAD FOR A OVERALL LENGTH OF 12 1/2 INCH MAKES GUN FASTER TO SHOULDER, BETTER BALANCE & MAKES LOADING INTO THE PORT FASTER"

As for seagiant his stock is custom made for him and that is most important for H/D
BTW here is a post/article from another 870 armorer, Scattergun Bob and he has the following to say about upgrading an 870 Express:

"Originally Posted by Scattergun Bob
Here you go. This is a list to upgrade express 870's, please read it carefully.

Hi Folks,

So from what I’ve read of your e-mails you would like fixes to some of the potential problems in the Remington 870 Express. First let me say that from the factory these guns work! It is only after tough use that some parts start to become suspect.

Extractor / Extractor spring (this is the most important part change) – as a cost saving measure Remington uses a slurry metal extractor in the express this P/N 93012, if my life depended on this gun I would replace this part with a Forged Extractor P/N 16176, might as well throw in a new extractor spring P/N 17433.
Now, let’s talk about when to do this. By opening the action half way it exposes the extractor to you scrutiny, feel and look at the edge closest to the firing pin. If it does not fell sharp or looks rounded change it right now, otherwise keep checking this surface regularly. Order the parts and when you are ready to change out extractors, drop me a line and I can shoot you exactly how to change out this part.


Carrier Dog Follower Spring – I have noticed in many early Express models a problem with the action hanging or stuttering on the closing stroke (fail to feed up), this is commonly caused by the shell carrier not traveling high enough into the receiver and the shell hanging up on the bottom of the chamber. It is a common occurrence and is usually fixed by replacing with P/N 16966 a heavier version of the follower spring, Do Not change if you are not experiencing this problem, it could create a new one.

Trigger pull / sear spring - I have noticed that the nice 3 ½ pound trigger on many 870 guns seems to get mushy after a lot of use, sear spring P/N 17518 returns the trigger to a crisp release. As of last year all sear springs are the same, good news from Remington!!!! However if you have an early model Express change this part.

Magazine spring - Many times our shotguns run sluggish for no good reason. Most of the time (besides keeping the gun clean), weak magazine springs are the bad guys. Please replace your Express 5 shot magazine springs with magazine spring, Police P/N 92447. This is a much better quality part. For those of you with 8 shot tubes, I really like the Scattergun Tech stuff now owned by Wilson Combat. They make a very good, very stiff magazine spring.

Well, that’s about it for now. In closing let me remind you that I am in the personal protection business and am addressing the Express as a defense weapon. If it is a hunting gun, we can be more forgiving of the above mentioned parts. Feel free to e-mail with any other problems with your 870’s I’ll try to help"

[seagiant]

Hi J,
VERY good info for 870 Express owners! I'm actually waiting now for an order that includes the steel extractor and the stronger carrier dog spring. These are all easy to change yourself,another thing is the bible to me on 1100's and 870's is Kuhnhausens gunsmith book!

I live about 10 miles from "town" and went in today mainly to pick up a couple of 1/16"X1/2" long roll pins. ACE did not have them! Finally found some at a mom and pop auto parts store. Put them in my pocket and when I got ready to drill my front sight they had vanished! I wasn't going back for more, so made a solid from a picture frame hanger brad! Scattergun says the pin is not nessary but I wanted to keep the epoxy honest!

Also picked up some #0000 steel wool to polish my chamber. I do this on occasion to all my shotguns. I heard that some of the Express models were a little rough? Mine seemed fine but figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

I'm now waiting for the side saddle and the upgraded internal parts!

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=307441

[35remington]

My Express was indeed sticking shells, even though it did not feel rough to me either. The cheap Winchester "Universal" shells with the silverish colored steel heads would hang up in the chamber and even "mortaring" the gun's butt against the ground would not extract the shell. The extractor would simply rip through the rim.

So I think the steel wool treatment was and is worthwhile. Spend your time at the rear of the chamber as the area forward of where the "brass" is does not matter.

I could use more expensive shells and they would not stick, but being cheap and also reloading the Universal shell (I can get a good crimp and a couple of reloads through them before I toss them as hundreds are available free if you dumpster dive at any public clay range) made smoothing the rear of the chamber a necessity.

[seagiant]

Hi 35,
The #0000 steel wool is good and what I believe you should start with. If you really want a mirror finish,after the wool take the bore brush and wrap with a cotton cloth and then apply some Flitz polish and it really slicks it up and is so polished that it helps resist rust!

[seagiant]

I ordered a .662 1oz. round ball mould from Mid South yesterday for $71 including shipping, and some 1/4" felt wads from BPI to cushion them.


Hi Randy,
When you get that mold running I'd like to get a few of those and try them out in my 870! There was something nagging me in the back of my mind and then I remembered a LONG time ago when I was a small boy on the farm in S.Georgia. My father told me when he was a kid in the depression they lived way out on a small farm down by a good sized river. Alapaha I believe, which is no doubt some bastardized Indian word,but they had a few cattle that had gone wild living in the woods down by the river and rather than get dogs and try to catch them they would just shoot them when they needed meat.

My first shotgun when I was 10 was my grandfather's single barrel 12 ga. It was super loose and there was electric tape holding the forearm on,sorta. Everytime you shot it it wanted to come apart! Anyway when they wanted to kill a cow my grandfather would open up a paper shotshell and pour the shot out and then put in a wheel bearing ball in its place! They would then go down and get as close as allowed and shoot the cow and then take the mule down and drag the cow back to the barn for butchering. No doubt the ball probably bounced off the walls of the barrel 20 times finding its way out!

This is just a story that I hadn't thought of in years and that old junk single barrel was the one they used. I also shot my first quail with it!

[leftiye]

Why? For home defence youwill need maybe 3 shots at most, a standard 870 packs 5 and in the home a simple flashlight taped to the bottom of the barrel and you have all you need in a light easy to manage package. So we add a mag pul stock, extended magazine and sling mounts, tactical sling and whoop de doo fore end and have a 10 pound TACTICAL shotgun that won't do the home defence thing one bit beteer at 10 times the cost. Nw if you intend to compete in 3 gun and shoot 250 rounds a day or more this might be what you need, but the lat shotgun instructor course I went to the high man shot a stock plan jane 870 and whipped the backsides off the fancy TACTICALS.

I've been following this, and found myself thinking "These guys haven't hunted enough cottontails with a shotgun." In close (in your house!), time is of the essence -OH YEAH!, flashlights and lasers are seen, and give your position away (reads get you shot). Short is good, maybe folding stock, but a nice short 18" 870 is muy pronto already, it's been said. Sights? Whuffor? Get on yer moccasins, SNEAK!

I've got an 870, 20" barrel, folding stock, 7 shot extension with barrel to match, sidesaddle 6 shot carrier, flashlight with pressure switch, horizontal forend. Thas sum heavy gun! A pistol grip bare 870 might be mucher more betah!

[historicfirearms]

If you don't mind, I've got a question on the magpul stock. I've been thinking of getting one for my Mossberg when they come out, but would like your opinion on something. Do you think a guy with medium-large hands could easily manipulate the Mossberg tang safety with this stock attached? From the pictures I've seen, it looks like the Mossberg stock will have a similar shape to the Remington magpul stock.

[seagiant]

If you don't mind, I've got a question on the magpul stock. I've been thinking of getting one for my Mossberg when they come out, but would like your opinion on something. Do you think a guy with medium-large hands could easily manipulate the Mossberg tang safety with this stock attached? From the pictures I've seen, it looks like the Mossberg stock will have a similar shape to the Remington magpul stock.

Hi,
No problem! This is really a nice stock and I can assure you the people at Magpul had that in mind when they designed this stock! I am even looking at this stock for a trap gun as it can be set up not only for LOP but also comb height with post purchased extras! I think you could call it a bargain for the price and what you get!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well I got in the Mesa Tactical side saddle and the Magpul side stock sling keeper. The MT side saddle has a reputation as a quality product and now that I have one in hand, completely agree!

I'm now waiting on a few upgrade internals that should make this Express model in league with the Police edition. I've done alot of research on this and can't see that much difference? My shot gun has not even been fired yet and feels smooth as silk already. Should only get better as it breaks in! A lot of different opinions out there on these HD shotguns of all makes!

[Love Life]

H&R pardner pump protector- $140.00 out the door
Black hawk sling that holds 15 shells- $24.00
A bunch of wolf buckshot-$200.00

Total: $364.00

Looks ugly, but it has been dead nuts reliable. A cheap and lightweight package that is all business.

[jmort]

The Pardner Protector is an 870 clone, all parts interchange except receiver and possibly the barrels. Mine was as reliable as it gets. Here is 10 LEO reviews from Police Link site which gives it 5/5 stars.
http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/3296-hr-1871-pardner-pump-protector.
Not sure about the "lightweight" part, it is all steel and heavy in my book, at 7.5 pounds. Mine felt heavy compared to my 500/590's but I guess they weigh the same so I guess it is "lightweight."

[Love Life]

7.5 lbs is not heavy.

Back to the OP- That is a sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet looking shotgun. One day I'd like to build one up, but shotguns is the firearms category where I invest minimal effort in doing anything for them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Love Life: We need to get you out on the skeet range a few times and you'll be wanting a $2000 shotgun in a hurry. Trap and Sporting Clays are also just as addictive, and especially if you bird hunt. After a few good rounds of skeet, there is not a whole lot of birds that are going to get by you. In fact they are downright easy. An 870 would also work just fine and with different barrels you could just about do it all with one gun. Swiss Army Knife approach is still valid.

I have a Citori XS trap gun that I also shoot Skeet with and would shoot SC as well if there was someplace close to do it. I also have a Citori Sporting Clays edition in .410 with 32" bbls. that I shoot skeet with. I can also shoot birds with these guns but carrying a 9lb trap gun around all day would get old. I hope to shoot doves with the .410 this year, and it will be sweet to get my limit with 10-12 shells. The gun is an absolute joy to shoot and I am getting pretty good with it.

These guns are money in the bank as they hold their values well and make shooting the sports so much more enjoyable.

I also have a very, very, nice 1964 Browning A5 with mod and full bbls in the case. It is my field gun. But I don't use it for clay shooting anymore simply because the other guns work better.

All are all highly desirable guns in the resale department. I tend to pick more desirable guns to buy simply because one day I will have to sell them off.

Guns are the most liquid asset you can own. I consider them all to be investments. In my wife view,,,"not so much?"

I also have a Mossberg 500 that cost $212 new I have put another $150 in it and as soon as the Magpul furniture is available I get that for it just because it makes the gun easier to shoot. Not worth as much but still very saleable in a pinch. It is my 3 gun shot gun, and will get shot like hell.

The round ball loads we are all trying also make it easier to shoot. In that discipline, making any hole in the target is good enough. No limit on Power Factor yet, I don't think?

All of these guns "could" be used for HD, however the M500 is loaded and ready to go in 10 seconds. There is also an old A5 lurking in the garage somewhere with a butt cuff with assorted rounds in it, just in case.

I think this is all about covering all the bases. Everybody has their own ideas about what covers the bases for them, and this is a good thing.

Where I live it is 20 minutes til the Sheriffs arrive.

They told me to do what I needed to do and they would clean up the mess.

Real confidence booster, huh?

Randy

[Love Life]

I never got into shotgunning for fun. I mean to try it some day!!


A big thanks to SeaGiant for a step by step (with pictures no less) on how to build up a sweet home defense/truck shotgun.That thing went from blah to awesome.

[Artful]

For HD, I see no need for sights at all, although a tritium bead might be nice in the dark.

Target ID is more important than seeing the bead but not being able to ID the target (IMHO)

A side saddle shell carrier seems to just add bulk to an 870.

It does change the handling of the 870 some but it give ability to reload instantly without having to take the gun down or needing to look

That Magpul stock looks interesting, and definitely is functional for someone needing other than "average LOP or drop".

Does look interesting - I also like the idea of the speed feed stock

You might like to look at the longest distance you "May" have to shoot with your HD shotgun - put a few target up at equal distance and try a few slugs at 'em - without sight reference it can be an eye openner.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thanks LL, I'll put some pics up showing what I change on the internals! I had never heard of the Pardner Pump,looks like it has a loyal following and it's half the price of an 870 Remmy! Found a pic with Magpul furniture!

You guys sitting on the fence on the Magpul Stock and Forend for the 870 and 500 need to get off and try one! Very nice!!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well,,, I just got some sucko news from Magpul today. I called them direct and it seems that they have not released the new stock and fore end for the Mossberg 500 yet. nor do they have an ETA when it will be released!

This sucks ! I wanted to finish my gun up, but it looks like it will be a while before they start shipping product.

On a brighter note, they said they had NOT moved anything to Texas. They said they had not decided to move "anywhere." so that is still up in the air.

I was under the impression that they had already moved a portion of their operation to the DFW area and were up and running. This apparently was fueled by rumor and is, as of this time, not happening. This info was from Customer Service at Magpul.

It appears to me that they maybe staying and fighting, and from all reports the Democrats that got elected last time maybe out on their arses after this next election. People were pretty pissed when their elected officials went ahead and passed all that bad gun legislation, despite a fairly large public outcry against it.

I think it is a good thing that they haven't ran out on all of their employees and local businesses that support them. It certainly would be a logistical nightmare to move a company like that.

I just want my stock and fore end. Waaaah !

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
That's news to me,(all of it!) I thought the Mossy 500 stocks were actually a few weeks out! This will be bad news to A LOT of people! As far as Magpul leaving Colorado,I'd rather they put up a fight and the people of the state get behind them and straighten out some politicians! Like the man said,"you ain't gotta stand tall,but you gotta stand!"

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thought I would show the internal changes made to the 870 Express model to bring it more in line with the 870 Police model. This was changing the carrier dog spring to a Rem 1100 spring (black colored) the extractor from an MIM type to steel. The MIM has a mold line on it (the one I'm holding). The safety I changed to a left hand model,and a red aluminum magazine cap . The cap is aluminum instead of SS to guard against peening the mag tube/receiver junction over time!

Hopefully this winter I can build a new oven and Cerekote this shotgun to finish it completely!

[W.R.Buchanan]

HAAAA! OK just ordered a Magpul stock for my M500 from LAPG. Apparently the little girl at Magpul Customer Service was FOS!

Since she either BS'd me, really didn't know, or just plain lied, I am reluctant to believe her line about not moving anything out of state either.

Who knows? Anyway they had the stock in stock and so it should be here in a few days. I also got an MBUS for my AR and a front sling attach for the shotgun. This place is pretty close to me in Valencia CA about 50 miles from home. if I had another reason to go that way I'd just pick up the stuff at will call, but shipping is only $7 so I probably couldn't make it there and back on two gallons of fuel.

Been looking at VW Diesels for a while now.

Can't wait for this stuff to show up.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi,
As you can see in post #51 I was surprised about the Mossy Magpul stocks. We will need pics of course!!!

Does diesel have enough BTU's to over come the price per gallon now, over gasoline?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Greg: Diesel is 18,000 btus per pound, and gas is about 10,000. Diesel out here is right at $4.00 per and regular is about $3.90 so yes.

My 30 year old Benz gets a consistent 23-25 combined and 27 on the road to and from Vegas. The VW Jetta Wagons are consistently getting near 50 mpg even though 42 is the advertised highway mileage. The Golf Diesels are the exact same platform but with less weight. I would want the extra space of the Wagon. The Audi A3 "Hatchback" is just a Jetta Wagon with a different front clip. Assembled on the VW line. VW owns Audi.

I like the Audi's too but am not willing to pay an extra $10K for a different grill and name tag. I drove one and the power is very respectable right off the bottom. Variable Vane Turbo and Variable Valve timing. 0-60 is about 7 seconds. The VW is a 2500lb car with 140 hp. I was impressed with the power and you don't have to worry about pulling out in traffic like you do with my Benz.

My Benz ins a 5000lb car with 115 hp. 0-60 on the Benz is 22 seconds!


On another note it turns out that LAPG has NOT got the Stock! I cancelled the order. I am bummed,,,but as stated earlier the stocks have not shipped yet, and no ETA!

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
I'm not showing this as a best price but they are showing in stock I guess? http://www.opticsplanet.com/magpul-industries-sga-moss-stock.html

Gas is about $3.40 here where I'm at and diesel is more,don't really know cause I don't use it, but know there is a line where the price gets to high it will even out to just buying gas. From your figures it seems it's got a way to go. As far as driving a Benz or an Audi I'll take the BENZ! I do love things made by the Master Race!

Well, I just remembered the Audi is made in Germany too!!:idea: I'd still take the BENZ! I always wanted the older 4 door sedan!

[W.R.Buchanan]

That one is an SEL long wheelbase version. S class, "Einspritzen" fuel injection, and Long WB.. Mine is a 300SD,,, S class Diesel, It's a 1983 and it has been the best car I've ever owned. I've had it for 12 years now and it had 160K on it when I got it. It is just coming up on 285K and an oil change and tire rotation. Still ahs original paint which is nearly flawless. I just got the front end aligned a few months ago when I bought my third set of new tires, and the car is an absolute joy to drive. Tracks perfectly strait down the road and is effortless to drive. Not a hotrod by ay means, 0-60 in 22 seconds, but a decent 70mph car on the freeway on Cruise. It only ahs 115hp but will still crest the Conejo Grade, 3 miles @ 6.5%, at 62 mph with a running start and no idiots in the fast lane.

I have done my house to Vegas, 350 miles, in 5 hours flat at 70mph on CC, and only dropped off CC once at the transition from the 210 to I-15! Got 26mpg going over and 28 coming back. Pretty hard to beat that in a 30 year old car that weighs 4800 lbs.

Don't get me wrong, these cars have to be maintained. they will go to ship if not maintained. most of them are ***'s now simply because people thought they were such good cars that they didn't have to maintain them. They become Expensive ***'s! I looked at 50 of them before I bought this one and it is in way better shape now than when I bought it. I paid $4500 for it, and have put another $6-8k in it over the years.

The Diesels were $45,000 when new. The same car with the gas motor, 300 SE, was $36,000 you see that the diesel engine was a $9,000 premium. That was in 1983 so these were not cheap cars. But when you consider that I drive mine everyday and it is 30 years old you can see the value.

The engines in these cars (MBZ OM 617) are arguably in the top three most reliable engines of all time. The Onan opposed twin generator motor, and the normally aspirated MBZ OM 616 (240D motor) being the other two. I have seen one 616 motor in a 1983 240D with over800K on it and still running back and forth to work everyday. The 617 motors have nitrided cranks, cams, and valve rotators, along with an oiling system like an Italian fountain.

Needless to say this one lives in the garage when not on the road.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
I fell in love with the Big 4 door SEL sedan in Rotterdam,Holland as that was what practically ALL the Dutch drivers used! We were young and had money to burn and always used the taxis instead of the tram and those drivers would make those cars sing running all over the city!

I showed a buddy of mine an SEL 450 sedan one time when we were talking about cars. He ended up buying one for about $8000 and it was really nice and I got to drive it some. The solidity of the ride and workmanship in the car is so different from a US made car. The story has a bad ending though as he did not get the timing chain changed out at the required interval and it broke and wrecked the engine! End of car,he bought another more modern Mercedez and I didn't like it as much as the old 80"s SEL!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Greg: oh optics planet, in fact, doesn't have any of those stocks , and have never sold any despite listing it. They are willing to place it on BO but that is pointless since nobody has ever gotten this product. yet.

I'm kind of annoyed about this. AS several outfits are listing the product but nobody has ever gotten one.

I am now going to the Post Office in my Benz to see if my Buckshot mould has appeared.

Three gun shoot this weekend. Gotta load some ammo!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Got the buckshot mould today. It looks just like the pictures on the for sale thread. will cast some balls and bucks soon.

Randy