hull differences in reloading?

[kellyj00]

I'm finding all sorts of data for winchester AA hulls, but not so much for just the cheapy federal one's I've been keeping.

Does the hull make that much of a difference? What do I risk by using AA reload data to load a federal hull?

thanks!

[Pepe Ray]

Are you saying that you reload shotshells and don't have a Lyman Shotgun Reloading Manual?
Shame!! Give me specifics about your supplies and I'll look 'em up for you.Pepe Ray

[Calamity Jake]

BY all means "GET A GOOD SG LOAD MANUAL" and " DO NOT SUBSTATUTE ANY OF THE LISTED COMPONANTS" shotguns are factory proof tested to 20,000 lead units of preasure. All listed Sg loads that I have seen don't go over 14,000, a change in ONE componant can raise pressures BIG TIME.

I have downloaded the listed powder charge and shot charge weight but that is all and that depends on the powder (410's with 296 don't get down loaded)

If you can identify the Fed. HULL then there should be load data for it

[35remington]

kelly, the Federal cheapies you are talking about are most likely the ones with a paper base wad.

These have somewhat larger capacity than AA hulls and have a non tapered interior. If these are, in fact, what you have, then AA data used in these shells would produce lower velocities than listed for the AA shell.

Specific load data for them exists in many reloading manuals; the one Alliant supplies free of charge at your reloading supply distributor is but one example. Other powder manufacturers print their own manuals, so look these up as well.

Alliant lists them as 2 3/4 inch Fed. Hi Power Plastic Shells with Rolled Paper Base Wad. Don't worry if your shells don't say "Hi Power" as the internal capacity of their paper basewad shells is the same, whether they be high brass or low brass. The cheapies you refer to are often colored silver over the metallic portion of the shell. If they have a plastic basewad or no basewad they are another hull design.

One key point about paper basewad hulls is never to get them wet. I use my Federal cheapies for hunting, where their larger capacity comes into play in building 1.25-1.5 ounce loads for pheasant hunting. They will also work for trap or skeet loads. Their reloading life is not as long as a AA hull, but since they are cheap that's what makes them ideal for hunting. If my autoloader chucks them into the weeds I'm not out much.

[kellyj00]

these hulls just say federal on them. I buy them at walmart for about $16 per 100, shoot them and keep the hulls. They are high brass if that helps.

"DO NOT SUBSTATUTE ANY OF THE LISTED COMPONENTS"
that's my question, really... what is the difference between a winchester and a cheddite primer? What makes these AA hulls better than my federals?

I come from the world of metallic reloading, where components are so similar that they don't matter. If I use the wrong brand of primer in my shotshells, will I blow something up? that just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[woody1]

"DO NOT SUBSTATUTE ANY OF THE LISTED COMPONENTS"
that's my question, really...

I come from the world of metallic reloading, where components are so similar that they don't matter. If I use the wrong brand of primer in my shotshells, will I blow something up? that just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Kelly, here's an example I pulled more or less at random from an old(er) Hercules reloading guide because I happen to have it sitting here. Using your Federal HiPower hulls 12 gauge load I look down the loading data for Unique. It's possible to get a 25% increase in pressure just by changing the wad. Now, if you're already at max working pressure, what have you done? Does a change in primer make a difference? You bet. I remember a load I used to use back in the day when one could shoot ducks with lead. Federal hiPower case 1 1/2 ounce load, with a Federal 209 primer the listed load was at near max pressure and 1210 fps velocity. Changing to a CCI 109 primer I could add 3 more grains of powder and get a 80 fps more velocity AT THE SAME PRESSURE. These were pressure tested loads from the Lyman SHotshell Handbook of the day. Unless you really know what you're doin, follow the advice others have given. Use the book loads as listed and don't change 'em. Oh, and that load was a duck killin son-of-a-gun. Regards, Woody

[pumpguy]

While we are on this subject, I have a question about AA hulls. I have not reloaded any in about 12 or fifteen years. I picked up one of the free loading data sheets and it is talking about the old style hulls. Are they not one piece compression formed anymore? If not, why did they change?

[NSP64]

I too am new to shotshell reloading. and have been using the FED cheapies in 20ga. I was using a reloading guide from alliant (spl?) and switched from waa20 wads to rxp20 wads to use with Bluedot. the wads let the powder up in the accordian area. when fired they made a weird noise and coughed out a mass of lead that went 10 ft. do not diviate from the load data. I went home and unloaded all the shells(40 of them) [smilie=1:

[35remington]

Pumpguy, they are still compression formed.

kelly, the AA shells are constructed of a high grade plastic that holds up pretty well over a number of reloads. They also have a tapered interior that makes using the right wad important - it must allow for this taper. Follow the recommendations in the loading manuals.

The smaller interior volume due to this taper maximizes pressure and velocity with small charges of powder and shot, which is generally what these shells were designed to shoot. Having higher pressure with light charges helps autoloaders cycle and makes the shells reliable in cold temperatures.

That's not to say you can't use 1 1/2 ounce charges in them, but often the pressures are at such a level it's not possible to add enhancements like buffer without radically reducing the velocity of the load.

The plastic of the Federal shell doesn't hold its crimp over a number of loadings as well, and the paper basewad deteriorates with use. I have been able to get 4-6 reloadings out of them if I'm not pushing the shell life to the limit. They're cheap enough to toss once they get to that point. Their larger volume often allows them to reach higher velocities with some loads versus the AA hull, and losing them on a hunt is guilt free.

It is also possible to add buffer to some loads without having pressures go over the allowed limit, with no loss of velocity in the larger capacity Federal shell.

As for load recipies, some primers develop more pressure than others. Some wads are stiffer, and don't collapse their cushioning section as much, which raises pressures. They have different shaped over powder cups. They have different lengths to the wads. Shells have different interior capacity.

All these things make shotshell loads highly variable. Fortunately, the ammunition/component manufacturers publish so many different combinations you're bound to find something that works with what you have.

Peruse the loading manuals, find what works for what you want to do, and get those components. It helps to be informed. For example, the Remington RP 12 wad is intended for 1 1/8 ounce loads, while their SP 12 wad is intended for 1 1/4 ounce loads. Despite this, you will find some 1 1/4 ounce loads listed for the RP 12 wad. The SP 12 provides better protection for the shot, as none of them protrude above the shotcup to rub against the bore.

Another example - the Winchester WAA12R is/was originally intended for 1 1/8 ounce of shot, but nevertheless it's frequently listed with 1 1/2 ounce or heavier loads. Be aware the shot protection with this wad is likely to be poor. Ballistic Products offers wads intended for heavier loads of shot. Sticking with common wad manufacturers, choices are limited if you want to duplicate factory loads with heavy charges of shot. Often the shotcup protection isn't there.

Shotshell loading is simple in that many like to standardize on a load and stick with it, but shotshell loading can also be as complicated as you want it to be. Some loads use buffer, mylar wrap to enhance shot protection/prevent bore scrub, spreader wads, etc.

[floodgate]

Guys:

Some shameless begging:

I have recently fallen heir to two older 12-ga. shotshell reloading die sets, one for an ancient Lachmiller "C" press, and the other for the even older (and a lot weirder!) Lyman [QU]EZY-Loader (see Ideal Handbooks #39 or #40) which I'd like to give some exercise. I haven't re-filled "shoots-bird shells" since the mid 1960's, when everything was paper shells, cardboard over-powder and over-shot wads and felt cushion wads, with Red Dot powder and rolled crimps, which is what these die sets are configured for. I dumped my stash of this old stuff many years back, but if anyone has a bunch of these old "heirlooms" gathering dust and spiderwebs under the bench or up on the rafters, I'd be happy to relieve you of responsibility for preserving them for posterity - say a USPS Flat-Rate box full??? I'll cover packing + postage, plus a reasonable amount either to the sender or as a site benefit. Could also use a small supply of ditto in 20-ga., for an early Lee Loader I just got; same deal. I DO have a can of Red Dot, and a bag or two of shot, so don't need those, or primers.

floodgate

[crowbeaner]

I have used the Federal hull with the rolled paper base wad for a loonngg time. The load I used most was the 1 1/4 oz of Lawrence Magnum shot and 37.0 of SR 4756, WWAA12R wad, and a Fed. 209(NOT 209A) primer. These were the hibase hull. The data is from an older IMR reloading guide from the 80s. If you can find the older data, there are some jimdandy loads with these hulls. They generally allow 3-4 more grains of powder for the same velocity/pressure level. I've pass shot geese at 60 yards with a modified choke barrel and #2 shot. They sure work. If you load the lowbase hulls, stick to the milder loads and your hulls will give you more loadings before you have to chuck them. I still have a bunch myself; I'm just not loading them because I have a huge # of RP Premier hulls to work with. Hope this helps. CB.

[singleshotbuff]

Gents,

Not to argue, but I beg to differ about the new style AA hulls still being compression formed. I load a lot of shotshells, and the newer AAs are most definately a 2 piece hull. They have a red tube with a white or yello or ?? basewad. Cut one apart and you'll see that there are 2 distinct pieces in there. Having said that, they still have a similar internal capacity to the older, compression formed, AAs so loading data is the same or close. The only problem I have had with the newer hulls is bad crimps and buckled cases. I never had these problems with the older compression formed hulls. So after I use up my supply of older hulls, I'll be switching to Rem STS hulls or Federals.

To the point of this thread, I use the Federal hulls a lot for reloading because I get TONS of them for free. These are the wal-mart $16.00/100 cheapies. They load ok, I use them for 3-5 loads then chuck em. There is data available for these hulls, but not as much as for target hulls like the AA or STS. If you need specific data for the federal hulls, and you can't find it, drop me a line and I'll send you what I have.

SSB

[35remington]

No argument here. I pulled my AA stash and found two distinctly different interiors; one example, of which I have many, is marked 2 3/4-1 oz.-8 and says "XTRA-LITE. This has no separate basewad.

The other shells are 2 3/4-1 1/8-8 and say "LIGHT." These do indeed have a separate basewad. On my examples the basewad is red, same as the shell.

I doubt very much that Winchester would produce two different designs. I don't doubt they are going to the two piece full time now, as noted. Cheaper to produce would be the main reason, I am sure. The two piece interior has always been on the low cost shells. This separate basewad probably produces the tapered interior at lower cost.

Anyway, the main idea is, for loading info, follow what the manuals say.

[oneokie]

Weighing in with my .02. The old AA hulls are one piece compression formed. The new AA hulls are 2 piece. The lettering on the exterior of the hulls is different. Smaller lettering on the new hulls, 12 and 20. The basewad insert can cause the wad to hang up, thus causing bulged or collapsed hulls. Have sectioned all of the various 20 ga. Win. hulls, the base wad in nearly identical in all of them, from the Universal to the AA.
The Federal hulls with the rolled paper base wads: Alliant has the best reloading data IMO.
As far as a recipie for a particular combination, call or send an e-mail to Alliant. They have been very helpful to me in my reloading efforts.

[kellyj00]

thanks guys, very helpful!

[KYCaster]

Floodgate: I have a couple of boxes of Alcan wads around here somewhere. Unfortunately, they're packed away in storage because of a recent move and it may take me a while to find them. They can probably be had for a small donation to Willy.

If you don't hear from me in a couple of days, shoot me a PM to jog my memory....seems like my attention span has gotten.....umm....what were we talking about????:confused:


Jerry

[turbo1889]

Well, what everyone has been saying about substituting components and potentially getting yourself into deep sh*t is true with a couple of exceptions.

First, there are load substitutions which are not dangerous but may or may not be undesirable for one reason or another usually in the performance zone. This in turn leads to the second exception where there does exist "universal" load data for shotguns that is made by assuming that the loader will use the combination of components which will produce the highest possible pressure load. In such load data substituting a component will only lead to lower pressures and potentially "blupper loads". To use such load data you simply load your shell such that--- primer is whatever you want to use as long as it is not a "magnum" primer, wad selection must be plastic one-peice of the proper length to allow a good crimp, shot and powder are fixed by the load table, and hulls are divided into loose catagory zones. There are several tabulations of such loads only two of which I know of exist on the internet --- both are from Lee. Some may be suspicious of such load data but it has worked out well several times for me, yes I've had several combinations that yeilded undesirable loads but were not unsafe. So if you use these loads you load up a box of your particular mixed recipe and then take them to the range and fire them through the chrony and pattern them on the board while shooting and loading them one at a time checking for any problems such as bloopers, uneven patterns, low velocity, ect. If all is well then you go load up a bunch; if not change the receipe slightly and retest. Works fine for figuring out how to safely load a load for which there are no receipes but can get time consuming.

Here are links to the Lee "universal" load tabulations:

Lee "universal" 12ga. loads (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1070.pdf)

Lee "universal" 16ga. & 20ga. loads (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1071.pdf)

These load sheets are included with the shotgun loading tool Lee sells to their customers and as such you will need to convert from their bushing size to your bushing size if you do not have their machine. The second page of each of these load sheets gives the actual weight of the powder dispensed by their bushing sizes for various powders and I use these to figure out which bushing to use in my machine. When doing this bushing cross-over double and triple check to make sure you've got it right. To fully understand how to use the Lee "universal" load tabulation sheet you need to also read the instructions they include with their machine --- Lee Load-All II Instructions (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1088.pdf)

As far as the specific hulls you want to use (Wally-World bulk 100-count Federal) I have very limited experience with those. I perfer to buy the Wally-World 100-count Remingtons instead because they seem to work better for reloading what I load the most --- wad-slugs.

[crowbeaner]

The only primer substitutions that I know are safe are the RP *97 for the RP 209P (they are the same, just different #s), and the Nobel Sport 209 for the WW 209 per WW data booklet. Everything else should be RIGHT BY THE BOOK!

[Bullshop Junior]

The Lyman book uses them, and I use them. DO NOT USE DATA FOR WINCHESTER AA. they have Plastic base wads, and the cheep federal has a paper. The WW is also thicker. Not a good idea to mix them.
Daniel/BS Jr.

[Trapshooter]

One other contribution to this thread. I contacted Hodgdon and Alliant when the Cheddite 209 primers first became widely available, and they both said that the loads for the Winchester 209 could be used with the Cheddite primers across the board. There are quite a few loads in the Lyman Shotgun reloading manual for the paper base Federal hulls.

Trapshooter

[jlchucker]

Singleshot Buff is right. Winchester changed their AA hulls about 3 years ago, driving everyone at my trap club nuts with the resulting problems of trying to get decent crimps, among other problems. The Winchester Ammunition Company, which had not been a part of US Repeating Arms for several years, somehow saw fit to "1964" their product line, much as the gun division did earlier. The Cadillac of reloadable shells has now become the Yugo of reloadable shells. Mostly my trap and skeet friends buy throwaway shells now, or have gone to Federal reloadable shotshells for their traploads. A newer Lyman Shotshell manual is a must for anyone reloading shotshells.