Failure to go into battery, Needin' a little nudge

[45 Shooter]

So today I went to the range to run off 100 rounds of .45 acp through my Officers sized 1911. All was good except for 3 rounds failed to go completely into battery.

Here is my load data.

LEE TL452-230-TC boolit.
5.0 grains of winchester 231
Federal primers, Federal cases.

Lymans 4th Edition Cast Boolit Handbook says my OAL is 1.170 so I set them to 1.165 and used the LEE Factory Crimp Die (I know alot of people hate it but it works for me) to put a "light" crimp on them.

Any ideas what would cause my failure to go into battery? Of would you say it's just a fluke for 3 of 100 rounds?

PS- No leading of the barrel too :bigsmyl2:

[ACrowe25]

When were the 3? I get this every once in awhile. Lets be honest, 231 isn't the cleanest powder (but works great so I use it!). So after 100 or so in my gun I can get one stick about 1/5 inch from full shut on the slide. I clean up my feed ramp and area around and problem goes away (if I don't it still doesn't happen commonly. Just once in awhile).

I just try to bring a small towel to the range and wipe up between boxes if I know I'll be there for awhile.

[ACrowe25]

Mine happen with 200 swc profiles under 5.2 gr of w231.

[mroliver77]

All was NOT well! Failure to go all the way into battery is serious!
Did you check with the barrel out of the gun to see if a cartridge would drop all the way home?. The book OAL are a GUIDLINE. Use your barrel to set oal! Using the Lee factory squish die the cartridges should be in spec diameter wise. I would look at the length again. There should be NO resistance to chamber a round.
J

[45 Shooter]

All was NOT well! Failure to go all the way into battery is serious!
Did you check with the barrel out of the gun to see if a cartridge would drop all the way home?. The book OAL are a GUIDLINE. Use your barrel to set oal! Using the Lee factory squish die the cartridges should be in spec diameter wise. I would look at the length again. There should be NO resistance to chamber a round.
J

I did the plunk test on every round as I loaded them with the barrel removed. Every round plunked excellent. The three that failed to go all the way into battery were on the last couple mags of the session of 100.

[45 Shooter]

When were the 3? I get this every once in awhile. Lets be honest, 231 isn't the cleanest powder (but works great so I use it!). So after 100 or so in my gun I can get one stick about 1/5 inch from full shut on the slide. I clean up my feed ramp and area around and problem goes away (if I don't it still doesn't happen commonly. Just once in awhile).

I just try to bring a small towel to the range and wipe up between boxes if I know I'll be there for awhile.

I'm leaning towards dirty gun syndrome myself. It was dirty dirty on those last few mags. I might have to start taking a rag with me to the range and doing a quick wipe down but i'm with mroliver77, failure to go into battery is an issue I need to figure out.

[ironjaw]

I had this same problem with my ruger p345. had to set bullet back to allow feed. ogive is on lands to soon. just ran 400 thru seating die,reset, and crimp die. all is well now. do not know if pressure will increase.?? lee 230 grn rdn sized to .452 ,5.2 grn. 231.
shot well in gun

[dkf]

I'm leaning towards dirty gun syndrome myself. It was dirty dirty on those last few mags. I might have to start taking a rag with me to the range and doing a quick wipe down but i'm with mroliver77, failure to go into battery is an issue I need to figure out.

If that is the case I would switch to a cleaner burning powder. It is pretty sad if you get "dirty" related malfunctions in under 100rds.

[35remington]

I'd suggest a longer overall length of 1.200-1.220" if your gun allows it and try again. Your OAL with that bullet style is a little nonstandard (despite Lyman's OAL suggestion, which is somewhat in error) and allows a relatively late feed ramp strike and kachunkier feed. Also a bit steeper climb up the feedramp.

What magazines?

The dirty gun syndrome suggestion should be nonsensical. I know of no bullet lube/powder combination that should be so dirty that it will be producing malfunctions at less than 100 rounds. Look elsewhere.

[dragon813gt]

Just posting so I can see the outcome. I'm having the same issues, a lot more frequently, with a MP 452200. I don't want to thread jack so I'm hoping one the solutions posted will work for me as well.

[Blammer]

dirty, that my suggestion as to why

[jonp]

100 rounds of any powder should not make it so dirty as to have ftf's.

[gray wolf]

Perhaps I missed it but did you tumble lube ? if so with what ?
and was it a heavy coat ?

[45 Shooter]

To answer a couple questions. I tumble lubed, sized, then tumble lubed again (straight Alox). Second lube was a bit thicker than the first, but I remove any trace of lube from the exposed boolit when seated. Magazines were Chip McCormick (sp?). I can seat a bit less but I think 1.220 will be showing a lube groove, i'm not 100% on that and i'll have to check it next time I load some up.

[45 Shooter]

100 rounds of any powder should not make it so dirty as to have ftf's.

I really wouldn't think so either. Before I started reloading i've ran 300 round of factory ammo though this gun at one time with no issues.

[DougGuy]

Here's another thought. I use 5.0gr 231 under a 230gr plated hp in a Kahr. It's nowhere near a max load but it's a nice range load. Suppose you got a couple cases that only got 4.5gr or 4.7gr of powder, and they didn't get a good seal in the throat and a little blow by happened, then the next round to chamber could have failed battery because of lube or powder debris in the chamber.

I load 45 ACP in progressive mode on my press and since they are target loads, not for hunting or competition I set the powder measure and check a random case from time to time so if there are inconsistencies they are no big deal as long as there aren't any squib loads. Situation like I described above could happen pretty easily, but your failure to go into battery sounds like some lube got in the end of the chamber and jammed the works up a bit.

[45 Shooter]

Here's another thought. I use 5.0gr 231 under a 230gr plated hp in a Kahr. It's nowhere near a max load but it's a nice range load. Suppose you got a couple cases that only got 4.5gr or 4.7gr of powder, and they didn't get a good seal in the throat and a little blow by happened, then the next round to chamber could have failed battery because of lube or powder debris in the chamber.

I load 45 ACP in progressive mode on my press and since they are target loads, not for hunting or competition I set the powder measure and check a random case from time to time so if there are inconsistencies they are no big deal as long as there aren't any squib loads. Situation like I described above could happen pretty easily, but your failure to go into battery sounds like some lube got in the end of the chamber and jammed the works up a bit.

Completely possible with a light load, but not in my situation, I weigh every load. :oops:

Boolit lube gumming up the works, I can buy that one.

[45 Shooter]

Alot of good sugestions on where to look. I'm going to start with the gun, fire some factory ammo and see if the issue will duplicate itself. If so i'm thinking the recoil spring may be wearing out. The gun has 1500 rounds through it on the factory spring.

[mroliver77]

Even if the spring is tired something is gumming up the works. What does it take to finish chambering? I have never ran alox in a 1911. How much alox are you using? Before finding this site many of of used way too much of it leading to trouble.

A new spring never hurts. ;)

[alfloyd]

I would try seating them a little deeper, (shorter OAL ).
I had the same problem with my USP H&K 45.
The boolit hits the rifling and keeps them from going all the way into battery.
I seated them 0.020 shorter and they ran fine.

Lafaun

[ku4hx]

With that same Lee boolit over 5.0 grains of Bullseye, I set my OAL to 1.155" - 1.160". Functioning has been flawless with well over 100 rounds being normal for a single range session.

[prs]

231 meters very well, so light charges should not be the OP's problem. I find it to be a little sooty, but when combined with a generous slathering of LLA, it gets really smoky and that greasy film does build-up on the feed ramp. I use a very similar loading on occasion using the traditional lube version of that Lee boolit and NRA 50:50. Definitely NOT an indoor range loading, very smoky! At the range with these, I get a very infrequent failure to chamber with any of three different brands of magazines (Ruger, Wilson Combat, or MetGar) and always on the next to last or second to last round. In my observation, the jambed round is caught on the round below it in the magazine. You have to drop the magazine (the round drops too) to clear it. I, too, am thinking (wishing) that a slightly longer COL that still "plunks" into the barrel may help this. The traditional version is a very easy boolit to cast perfectly and very fast to cast.

prs

[Iron Mike Golf]

If you want to figure out why a stoppage happened, you really need to stop shooting at that moment and inspect carefully. Clear the gun and check the round for damage. Break down the pistol and try the plunk test right then and there (unless you spot damage to the round).

You're shooting a mid-range load, right? And, your piece is not full sized. Is it possible your slide was not fully cycling? Keep in mind, there is less slide mass and less travel distance in the Officer's and losing any of the travel is going to reduce the chambering force a good bit. How do you lube your slide rails?

Officer's models have a reputation for being persnickety about ammo. If this is a fouling issue, you might consider upping your charge to be a good bit closer to the max load.

[45 Shooter]

Even if the spring is tired something is gumming up the works. What does it take to finish chambering? I have never ran alox in a 1911. How much alox are you using? Before finding this site many of of used way too much of it leading to trouble. A new spring never hurts. ;)


To finish chambering all it takes is a very slight nudge on the back of the slide with the butt of my palm, It's only out of chamber maybe 1/8 of an inch at most. All three rounds that this occured on were at the last or second to last round in the mag.

For your second question, the lube I give them before sizing is very, very light, can barely see it. After sizing I gave them a bit more but noticeable on the second lube. My therory is a little more lube in the lands will help reduce leading, maybe I over lubed on the second lube.

[45 Shooter]

If you want to figure out why a stoppage happened, you really need to stop shooting at that moment and inspect carefully. Clear the gun and check the round for damage. Break down the pistol and try the plunk test right then and there (unless you spot damage to the round).


You're shooting a mid-range load, right? And, your piece is not full sized. Is it possible your slide was not fully cycling? Keep in mind, there is less slide mass and less travel distance in the Officer's and losing any of the travel is going to reduce the chambering force a good bit. How do you lube your slide rails?

Officer's models have a reputation for being persnickety about ammo. If this is a fouling issue, you might consider upping your charge to be a good bit closer to the max load.

Mike, the data I have is showing 5.0 grains of 231 behind this boolit is a minimum load, 5.5 being never exceed. Upping it to say 5.2 or 5.3 is an option.

And yes, officers sized 1911's can be a little persnickity. I lube the entire gun, including the rails with Froglube. I've had good results with it in the past on this firearm and several others.

[45 Shooter]

With that same Lee boolit over 5.0 grains of Bullseye, I set my OAL to 1.155" - 1.160". Functioning has been flawless with well over 100 rounds being normal for a single range session.

Your post got me thinking so I went out and gathered my load data (I keep measurements and data on every batch of rounds I make up, I know it's probably anal but i'm picky)

My batch previous to this one my OAL was running 1.155 / 1.159, and they ran like a top. This batch for whatever reason I was running them 1.165 / 1.168 :shock:. Maybe that's the issue.

[fredj338]

OAL of 1.220" could be a tiny bit long for some guns w/ that bullet. Dropping to 1.210" might work better. Make sure you have enough flare, sometimes lube & or a little bit of lead gets scraped forward & prevents chambering in a tight chamber.

[MtGun44]

More taper crimp or seat boolit deeper, or both.

Bill

[ultramag]

Your post got me thinking so I went out and gathered my load data (I keep measurements and data on every batch of rounds I make up, I know it's probably anal but i'm picky)

My batch previous to this one my OAL was running 1.155 / 1.159, and they ran like a top. This batch for whatever reason I was running them 1.165 / 1.168 :shock:. Maybe that's the issue.

All my experience with this boolit in .45 Autos tells me you've answered your own question. I have to keep the OAL under 1.165" for this boolit to work in all my .45's. I set my OAL at 1.160 and never have issues anymore. I would do that first before chasing any of this other random possibilities since you had success at the slightly shorter length previously.

[ku4hx]

Your post got me thinking so I went out and gathered my load data (I keep measurements and data on every batch of rounds I make up, I know it's probably anal but i'm picky)

My batch previous to this one my OAL was running 1.155 / 1.159, and they ran like a top. This batch for whatever reason I was running them 1.165 / 1.168 :shock:. Maybe that's the issue.

Published cartridge OAL is, at best, just a guide. Some boolit/barrel combinations require shorter than published; others will allow longer. What works in your gun(s) may not work in others and vice versa.

You have to watch the neck diameter too. For me, the two biggest hinderances to easy chambering are cartridge OAL and neck diameter. Either one being out of spec (for your chamber) can cause the round to stick. I've even gone so far as to use a bit of Prussian Blue on rounds that were especially troublesome. Once I could see where the binding was taking place, the fix was simple.

[starnbar]

One thing to ask you is it the same magazine you are using that creates the ftf every time?

[w5pv]

I have the same problem with Al/8 in my Colt.The problem lies with slow burning powder not burning all the way.I don;t trust it for anything but killing paper.cans or water filled bottles.

[6bg6ga]

I couldn't resist throwing my .02 in here since I carry a 1911 stainless officers Colt. My problem from day one with this gun was the crappy springs. With everything replaced including the trigger assembly this gun is reliable and functions correctly. I used to have a slight problem with malfunctioning /feeding but this was eliminated by polishing the feed ramp.

I load #452460 semi wad cutter and 452374 round nose. The 460 OAL is 1.198 and the 374 is 1.255-1.260 I generally run them out as long as possible so that they still load in the magazine and go properly into the chamber.

My 200 gr is loaded anywhere from 4- to 6.0 gr of 231. My 225gr is loaded with anywhere from 4.0-5.8 of 231 according to Lymans 46th edition. I generally run 5.6 with the 225gr and 5.4 with the 200gr as it seems to be the most accurate in my gun.

My 1911 will flawlessly run any mixture of any load I wish to put thru it. Contrary to advice here on this forum I still run a shock buffer without a problem.

With 231 and over 250-300 rounds thru it at the range per sesson the gun does get a little dirty but NEVER ceases to function.

[6bg6ga]

Thought I would add that my lube is home made 50%/Alox 50% beeswax. Guns is cleaned prior to taking it shooting and lubed with a little gun oil...on the slide...nothing fancy. Gun comes back home very dirty but still very functional. So I wouldn't blame the lube or powder. As one that has gone thru the whole hit and miss with the Officers I would **** can the factory springs and replace with good aftermarket and have a gunsmith polish the feed ramp. It worked for me... Mine feeds everything now just like my other full sized 1911's do.

[35remington]

I'll just make the suggestion that ill advised or executed polishing of the feedramp may cause more problems that it cures. Make sure you know why the feedramp is angled as it is, and make sure not to round the corner at the top nor try to "blend" the frame ramp with the barrel ramp.

The barrel ramp is supposed to have a gap between it and the frame ramp. Most feeding problems are not a frame ramp finish issue, as nearly all are quite adequately smooth from the factory, and it is rare that this is a true fix for any problem. So proceed very cautiously before altering anything about the pistol. Once metal is removed it cannot be put back.

[6bg6ga]

I'll just make the suggestion that ill advised or executed polishing of the feedramp may cause more problems that it cures. Make sure you know why the feedramp is angled as it is, and make sure not to round the corner at the top nor try to "blend" the frame ramp with the barrel ramp.

The barrel ramp is supposed to have a gap between it and the frame ramp. Most feeding problems are not a frame ramp finish issue, as nearly all are quite adequately smooth from the factory, and it is rare that this is a true fix for any problem. So proceed very cautiously before altering anything about the pistol. Once metal is removed it cannot be put back.

I guess it sounds like you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not saying to change the angle although mine was incorrect. When I say polishing I mean to make smooth and remove burrs. Granted if you go after it like a bull in a china closet bad things will happen. I've probably polished the ramp on two or three dozen 1911's and with no other modifications it helped quite a bit but then again I don't know **** either and you do.

[rsrocket1]

I do the same as KU4HX. I seat to where the cone meets the mouth with no exposed "vertical" part of the boolit.

Perfect feed and function in an old 1911 Thompson Auto Ordnance

76939

[35remington]

I am just pointing out that "polishing the ramp" is one of the most overrated cures. Very few feedramps have insufficient polish or any "burrs" these days.......and it's easy to goof it up if an understanding of just why the ramp is shaped as it is is not understood. I have yet to see any recent, in the last 20 years produced 1911 that was truly in need of "polishing".....and I've looked at and shot a bunch.

Not trying to be contentious, just realistic. If ramps truly needed that much attention there would be no end of complaints and guns returned to the manufacturer. The "feedramp polish" is given far more credit than it deserves.....because the finish of the ramps today just aren't that bad. If the angle itself is bad, that is beyond the ability of a home polishing remedy to cure (think milling machine instead).....and ill advised home tinkering is what I'm campaigning against, not any particular advice.

Know before altering.

[Taylor]

I had the same issue with my Springfield,same bullet,same load and powder.More crimp solved the problem,mine anyway.

[45 Shooter]

Ok, now that I have it narrowed down (hopefully) to too long of an OAL i'm going to ask a noob question, well, since i'm a noob.

Can I run the remaning rounds back through the seating die again and seat a bit deeper? Keep in mind i've already used the LEE factory crimp die to put a very "light" crimp on them.

[MtGun44]

More taper crimp.

Bill

[45 Shooter]

More taper crimp.

Bill

I'm going to try that first Bill. Seems it'll be easier to give 'em a little more crimp that it'll be to push 'em down ferther. I'll test with the barrel naturally. Thanks

[35remington]

If you want to seat them a little deeper and see how that does, examine the cartridge at the bullet/case juncture to ensure that lead has not been plowed up in front of the case mouth.

[fredj338]

Maybe, if you don't start shaving lead doing it. This is why we load small test lots of NO MORE than 10rds. THen this could be fixed more readily in your next 10rd test lot.

Ok, now that I have it narrowed down (hopefully) to too long of an OAL i'm going to ask a noob question, well, since i'm a noob.

Can I run the remaning rounds back through the seating die again and seat a bit deeper? Keep in mind i've already used the LEE factory crimp die to put a very "light" crimp on them.

[MtGun44]

As a separate operation, too. I use .465 to .470 diam at case mouth, a bit tricky to measure.

Inadequate TC was THE most common cause of this problem with dozens of guys I assissted getting
handloads up and running reliably for IPSC competition over the last 30+ years. Too long LOA was
number two.
Bill

[zomby woof]

Make sure your not building up lead in the chamber where the mouth of the case stops on the barrel.