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View Full Version : A Breakthrough, Sorta



Bent Ramrod
07-20-2013, 06:01 PM
In the past, I have posted a time or two on the problems I've had getting my Pedersoli .32 caplock rifle to shoot accurately. A friend of mine got one a few months before I did and had the same problems as I did: minute of tea-saucer accuracy (at best) off the bench at 50 yards, deteriorating as successive shots were fired; stuck balls and patches; lots of wild shots, and general sense that if a Frontiersman had to go through all the grief this rifle was giving him, he'd trade it in for a bow and arrow.

I got lots of good advice from people (some on line, some at the Muzzleloader's club) on how to manage these little rifles. Besides my friend and me, everybody else seemed to get squirrel head accuracy out of theirs out to 50 yards. They all agreed on the importance of cleaning the bore between shots and many advised me to quit lubricating my patches with grease, to use them dry or use saliva. The relationship of bore diameter to ball diameter and patch thickness was gone over as well.

I tried powder charges from 15 to 40 grains, with the lower charges being marginally better than the higher ones, but no quantum leap in accuracy from any of them. I tried all the ball diameters from .310" to .323" that I could get moulds or preswaged balls for and all patch thicknesses that could be used short of hammering the combinations down the barrel. I finally settled on a thin (.005" or so) linen patch with the .319" ball as the best of an indifferent lot. With this combination, I did sometimes have to hit the ball starter rather hard with my hand, and cleaning between shots was essential. What patches I could find on the ground after shooting were not torn or burned through.

The cleaning drill could not be set to a routine, such as two wet patches, two dry ones, etc., either. Whatever procedure I followed, inevitably there would be that ominous draggy feel as the patched ball was rammed home, and the next shot would go "there or thereabouts." I was able to prolong the minute of tea saucer accuracy at 50 yards out to eight shots or so, and three or four would seem to be trying to form a "group," as normally understood. At least, the incidence of sticking ramrods went to zero. Still, a shooting session that used up 25 percussion caps would be better described as an all-morning cleaning session with an occasional shot being fired. My friend gave up and sold his rifle, after giving me first refusal. I refused, with the explanation that I had way enough trouble already. He sympathized, saying maybe we should have started with .36s or .45s and ignored our wishes for a "squirrel rifle."

Recently I traded with a member of this group for a .32 Maxi Ball mould. I cast up a bunch of them from pure lead and pan lubed them with my mutton tallow/beeswax mixture I use for BPCR bullets. The other day I took them out to try them. I was apprehensive when I pushed one of them in on top of an Ox-Yoke wad, since the thing just thumbed in, without any engraving resistance. I used the rod that came with the gun, rather than the starter and the heavy duty range rod, to push the bullet home. It went home very easily. Since my rifle has a slow twist for PRBs, I figured the lack of stabilization for the longer projectile plus the loose windage would result in keyholes aplenty. Well, I was committed now; might as well go through with it.

The first two shots were a little wild, but the second was within the rather generous POI zone of the round balls. Neither were keyholes. The third was on top of the sights, and so was the fourth and fifth and all the succeeding ones. I used up all the Ox-Yoke wads and kept shooting. Apparently, they weren't needed. I was getting closer clusters offhand at 25 yards than I had ever gotten off the bench with PRBs at 50. I decided to see what failure to clean would do to accuracy. The Maxis continued to slide down the bore, but the ominous draggy feel was beginning to show itself. The shots, however, kept stacking up right on top of earlier shots. I went to the falling plates at 50 yards. With PRBs I could hit at the rate of maybe 3-4 shots out of 10 offhand. The hit ratio went up to 7 or 8 with the misses being callable, rather than "What the H was that?"

The ramrod still functioned pretty smoothly, although it was now coated with a thick layer of grease and powder fouling towards the bottom. The gun was shooting like my .32-20 cartridge rifles (perhaps not surprisingly, since with the 100 gr Maxi Ball, it basically is a .32-20.) This was a totally different gun than the bete-noir I was used to struggling with. Thumb the bullet in, sweep in the excess lubricant, ram home with the gun's ramrod. No fiddling to keep the patch straight, no short starter, no struggling to get the ramrod in or out, no pile of dirty patches from cleaning.

I felt guilty and cleaned after about Shot #35, but I don't think it was necessary. The next shot didn't go wild, nor did the rest of them. I finally ran out of Maxi Balls after 100 shots or so. My rate of fire was astounding, and every shot went where the sights were pointed. A friend from the Muzzleloader club drove up as I finished and I excitedly told him of my breakthrough. "Yeah, but you can't use those things in our Matches," was his unimpressed reply.

Well, at least I have evidence that there is nothing wrong with the gun itself, accuracy wise. I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed with the PRBs though. By the Maxi Ball behavior, an easily started smaller ball with a thick, lube saturated patch should do the trick. It never has worked very well in the past, though, but maybe even more grease than the patch can hold is needed. Maybe multiple patches? Something has to work to get the gun to shoot without all that infernal cleaning. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? I do have to say to previous advisors, that I'm not the kind of guy that asks for advice and then says it's no good just because I don't think so. I tried everything that people suggested, to the best of my ability, with the results I've documented above.

I do like the gun much better now, though.:mrgreen: Maybe I should have bought the other one after all.

jimb16
07-20-2013, 07:14 PM
Sometimes you just need to keep experimenting. My .50 cal Hatfield will keep around 1 inch groups off the sandbags at 100 yards, BUT>>>>>only if I use a VERY LOOSE PATCH! It has to be so loose that the weight of the ramrod can push the ball down the barrel! It is the only BP rifle that I've ever seen that hates a tight patch. I discovered that by accident one day when I brought the wrong patch material. So carzy as it sounds, try some loose patches. You never know....

Maven
07-20-2013, 07:48 PM
Bent Rr, That's a thorough description of less than ideal results. However, I'm somewhat at a loss as to what advice to offer to improve things, but you may need to reduce the variables to a more workable number. To wit, settle on a given powder charge, say 20grs. FFFg. Also consider weighing the roundballs if you're casting them. Third, if you were to short start a Maxi-Ball in your well oiled bbl. then pull it and measure the engraved end with a micrometer, I think you'll get a better idea of which diameter RB your gun will digest. I.e., the diameter of the patched RB (with compression) should be slightly greater than or even equal to that of the [pulled] Maxi-Ball. That should simplify the ball diameter - patch thickness issue. One last thought, your gun may shoot differently
with FFg as opposed to FFFg, so you may want to give it a whirl when the other variables are controlled. Btw, a friend has a .32cal. Pedersoli flintlock longrifle that's a tack driver (.310" RB's I think). He's had several problems with it, since corrected, but accuracy wasn't one of them. One last thought: Is the bbl. broken in with no sharp lands, etc.?

Junior1942
07-20-2013, 08:14 PM
My 32 Crockett Rifle shoots near one ragged hole groups @ 25 yds with about 10 grs Pyro P. MV = ~1100 fps. Slow that Pedersoli down and see what happens.

mooman76
07-21-2013, 12:01 AM
There's a guy over on the muzzleloadingforum.com having similar problem with his only it's a flintlock. Not sure he really has as much problem as he thinks though. He is getting it a little better. His groups aren't quite as bad as yours though. Just have to keep slugging away until you find that magic formula. Have you tried different powders?

Mk42gunner
07-21-2013, 01:22 AM
If you are planning to hunt with the rifle I would stick with the maxi-balls, since they shoot okay now.

If you are planning to shoot your clubs' roundball matches; I would follow most of the advice above, and start with a loose patched ball at the same charge you are using for the maxi ball (only change one thing at a time).

I really like Junior's advice to slow it down for a .32. Around here you can't even see a squirrel's head at more than about thirty yards when the leaves are still on the trees.

One thing I would try if you plan to shoot a very greasy or wet patch-- put a dry wad between it and the powder.

Robert

Squeeze
07-21-2013, 07:24 AM
at this point, I have at least 5 .32 cal rifles. a .319 ball seems a bit tight, especially if your using a lot of force to start it. A .315 ball and a ,010 patch works fine in all my guns (or a .013 old T shirt punched to 7/8 round and I usually use straight hoppes #9 as lube) you shouldnt have to use all that much pressure to start the ball, a light smack in the ball of the short starter, not even all that hard, should do. the pressure you seat the ball with matters on these small cals, mine all want a light seating, no tapping after you hit home. But the main thing is to do it the same every time. Also, 50 yards is almost a far target for this cal, It is a small cal, short range gun. your shooting a ball abt 45-49 grns about the same as a .22 RF so its subject to a surprising amount of wind drift with any crossbreeze. I can punch a ragged hole with any of mine to 20-25 yards, and get a good group to 40 or so, but you really need a windless day for 50, and a fast dropoff over that. but really, how many 50 yard squirrel shots do you take? im sure most everone gets closer. the most common twists are 1-48, (I have 2,) seem to like abt 22-25 grns of powder, next I have a pair of TC cherokees with a 1-30 twist (many will say these are among the best .32 shooters out there, I have to agree) that shoot well with anything from 15-30 grns and I have a custom with a 1-36 twist that does well with abt 20 grns all 3f real blackpowder, and all like a .315 ball and a .010 patch (or ill use a .311 ball and a .015-.018 patch). A .32 is really no more finicky to load/shoot/clean than any larger cal, you have to work up loads (powder/ball/patch combination) for any gun, BUT I strongly recommend you get in the habit of swabbing between shots. It takes out more variables in working up loads, and also keeps you from the inevitable "stuck ball abt halfway down the bore" one thing I must admit a small .32 cal IS more succeptible to without swabbing. I usually use 1 patch with a spritz of window cleaner (any cheap dollar store brand, just try to find one without ammonia, it reacts with the salts in BP fouling and greatly aids rust buildup) followed by 1 dry patch. 1 smooth stroke all the way down, then all the way out. when I started with my first .32 I was the same way..went the first few days at the range just completely frustrated, thinking I had a bad barrel, or the sights were garbage.. but then I worked it out. I would recommend getting Dutch Schultz papers on BP accuracy, great info and well worth the $20 spent, search BP rifle accuracy and read over the site. he is accessible and readily answers any questions you may have to help you along. Keep a it! persistance is key, Im sure you will be smiling in the end, and you'll be grabbing for that .32 on the way to the range with a grin, not a scowl

If the gun is brand new, it may take 1-2 hundred shots down the bore to "shoot lap" so to speak or work out any machining debris, so you may just have to break in the barrel also..

Junior1942
07-21-2013, 08:01 AM
My 32 Crockett Rifle shoots near one ragged hole groups @ 25 yds with about 10 grs Pyro P. MV = ~1100 fps. Slow that Pedersoli down and see what happens.PS: That's with .018" pillow ticking lard-lubed patches, Hornady .310" RBs and WW alloy .311" RBs from a Lee mold.

Hanshi
07-21-2013, 03:50 PM
Yes, my Crockett will do one hole groups as far as 35 yards. These little guys can surprise you. I, too use a Lee .311" mold and get best accuracy with 30 grains. .015" ticking & Hoppes #9 lube help do the trick. Every gun is an individual for sure.

Hellgate
07-21-2013, 04:07 PM
On a sadder note: Dutch Schultz's vision is failing so he has trouble answering written questions as of the last time I wrote to get his system which was about a year ago (or more). I hand wrote my questions and he had trouble reading the letter.

fishhawk
07-21-2013, 04:22 PM
I had a similar problem with a .45 cal flinter. Using Crisco as a patch lube works well for all my other muzzle loaders except this one! Using Crisco as a lube I could not keep 3 shots on a 8inch pie plate at 30 yds off the bench talk about bad I was thinking "who do I shoot against that i can give this rifle to" Any way started thinking a bit and I tried the ox-yoke wonder lube on the patches and low and behold clover leave groups! It could be as simple as it doesn't like your patch lube.

mainiac
07-21-2013, 09:05 PM
IMO, lube is the key to getting the little bores to shoot well. When i want all out best accuracy,i dig into my stash of lehigh valley lube,and that makes my .32-.36,s really shoot tight. Sadly, its no longer made.Its replacement is called shenandoah valley lube,,what ive shot with it so far,is looking to be almost as good as the original. I highly recommend you find some of this wet lube,and tight pocket drill patching.My big bores dont seem fussy at all,with what i use for lube.

45 Bravo
07-22-2013, 12:28 PM
My best shooting was 15gr. of FFF with a .015 pillow ticking spit lubed (free and always have it with you) and .310 ball, easy starting with the thumb, easy loading and fantastically accurate..

Slow it down some, loosen it up a little, see how she likes it.

Bent Ramrod
07-22-2013, 04:19 PM
Thanks to all for the advice. I checked the bore with a plug gauge because the Maxi Balls just slide in over the tops of the grooves. A .321" gauge slides in easily, the .322" would take more force than I would like to give it. The rifle had certainly been fired at least 200 times previous to the Maxi Ball session, with probably two or three times the amount of ramrod strokes for cleaning between shots. I use a muzzle protector with the range rod.

I have weighed the .310" and .319" balls, which are cast from a Lee mould. I didn't weigh the swaged .310" or .315" balls, thinking the swaging process would take care of weight inequalities. I more or less quit weighing them after somebody here (Harry O, maybe?) said he couldn't tell any difference.

When I first got the rifle, it seemed that with small powder charges, I could feel a looseness at the breech end of the barrel. The patched ball seemed to drop into an open space at the bottom of the barrel. I thought that Pedersoli might have reamed out the bore at the breech end to accommodate some standard powder charge, although the space was bigger than their recommended charge of 15-20 gr would fill. Anything less than 30 grains and I could feel this step or loose area and was afraid accuracy would be affected by the ball being out of line with the rest of the barrel. However, for whatever reason, after the shooting I have done with this rifle, I can't sense that loose area any more and have gone down to 15 gr Goex FFFG, but have stayed at 20 gr, by my measure, since it seems to do as well as anything. I will try going down to 10 gr and see what happens. I have some Shuetzen, Swiss and Goex in FFg and 1-1/2 Fg that I will also try. The only other propellant I have tried is Triple 7, but I do have a jar of Pyrodex P which I will also try.

The Ox-Yoke patches I bought seemed to be superior to other greased patches, although not that much. Before the Ox-Yoke patches I soaked some patches in Bore Butter and tried them, with indifferent results. I went to dry patches on the advice of a friend, since the cleaning would, supposedly insure no fouling to dissolve as the patch was rammed down the bore. A few were wetted with saliva, but I couldn't see an advantage. The mutton tallow/beeswax lube certainly works on the Maxi Balls; I will try that on patches. To check if it's a bore greasing/fouling softening issue, I think I will alternate a few Maxi Balls with an occasional patched ball on another target next time to see if having excess lube throughout the barrel helps. I'll look around for the Shenandoah Valley lube as well.

My standard cleaning mixture is the same Ballistol/water mix I use for black powder cartridge guns and revolvers. I hadn't thought of trying glass cleaner on anything but the fired shells. I use Windex with vinegar for these, but I was afraid of what the acidic vinegar would do to the metal finish on a gun. I'll check the stores for the cheap brands that are just soap, alcohol, perfume and color and see what I can find. That was the worst thing about the cleaning: if I could have gotten it down to a wet patch, then dry patch, then shoot, that would have been OK, if cumbrous. But after doing a few of those, I would need another, and another and another, wet patch to get the last of the dragginess that was building up out of the barrel. The more wet patches I used, the more likely it was that some moisture would get into the drum and cause a misfire or aggravate the caking at the bottom of the breech. I use one of those scraper things but only at the end of a shooting session.

The only things I absolutely haven't tried to some slight extent at least are a 10 gr powder charge, different powder granulations, an extremely loose-fitting ball and patch, and a ball/patch combination that has to be hammered into the muzzle with a rawhide mallet to get it started. (This last technique is the Trade Secret of one of the Muzzleloader Club members, and he often wins our local matches, so I guess every rifle is indeed an individual.) The very loose, very greasy ball/patch combination would be ideal, and I have no brief against smaller powder charges, so I'll try that next time I'm out. I'll see if I can get Dutch Shultz's instructions also.

Thank you all for your responses. There is certainly a wealth of experience and knowledge out there!

fishhawk
07-22-2013, 04:27 PM
My .32 is a dixie TN mountain rifle i got in 1986 at friendship IN. and I had to go to .45 gr of FFFg to get it to shoot and now it's a tack driver.

Junior1942
07-22-2013, 05:13 PM
If you kill a squirrel with a circa .308" RB going 2,000 fps or so, forget about squirrel 'n' gravy or fried squirrel.

fishhawk
07-22-2013, 05:16 PM
Head shots junior if it's a body shot don't bother looking for it.

Junior1942
07-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Head shots junior if it's a body shot don't bother looking for it.Yep, head shots. But how do you know Halle Berry ain't gonna walk by just as you squeeze the trigger? Blam! Pieces of squirrel everywhere!

fishhawk
07-22-2013, 06:35 PM
I don't think I have a snow balls chance in you know where of that happening!