finally got my point forming die done

[Cane_man]

woo hoo finally did it [smilie=p: only took me 8 tries, several broken reamers, and lots of help from u guys, but i finally got close to the production bullet with my .224 point forming die, its not polished and pretty looking but here it is next the Sierra FBHP 53gr production bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final2001_zps7cfdc376.jpg

on a whim i thought i would try making a 3/64" (0.047") meplat instead of the usual 1/16" (0.063") and it worked! the 3/64" punch did great and the 3/64" cobalt drill bit worked like a champ... i think the meplat on that Sierra is 2/64" but i got pretty close...

here is the point forming die, kind of ugly looking on the outside like me... made by step drilling and the usual d-reamer to rough bore, then finish to 0.220 with a two flute reamer made from W-1, then ready for lapping:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final008_zps8c96127e.jpg

the real difference maker for me this time were the laps... i was making my own laps from brass rod and my poor lapping technique was causing flare in the shank, ogive, and meplat resulting in them all to lose their intended profile as i would turn a 6S ogive into a 9S when i was done :oops: then i decided to try using the production bullet as a lap, and it worked! made three different sizes of laps 0.210, 0.215, and 0.220:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final005_zps6bd58461.jpg

used brass screws and ground off the threads so they wouldn't scratch up the die... just load them with lapping compound and move it in and out, etc. i was surprised as the taper on the shank was only 0.0004 and before it was more like 0.0012!

made a collet from aluminum to drill out the base of the bullet for the brass screw, and to use with a live center for turning down the shank:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final002_zpsbe632ec0.jpg

then turned down the shank to the size needed and got a small file to blend in the shank with the ogive:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-final003_zps20778534.jpg

i think this project took me around 6 weeks, but i am ready to stop for now :) got to test them and see if they will group up or not... hope this helps someone as this die almost was the end of me!

a big thanks to many members here for your help and encouragement :drinks:

edit: i forgot i wanted to tell this embarrassing story... i was on like die version #4 or something and was in the middle of lapping, almost done ready to test and see the point... i still don't know what happened but for some reason the die wasn't chucked securely in the lathe and when i started lapping the die flew off the lathe, over my shoulder, across the garage, and landed somewhere on the side wall where the wife has rows and rows of boxes stacked... it landed in there somewhere and for the life of me i still can't find that stupid die!!! lucky it didn't hit me in the head and knock me out :groner:

[newcastter]

Congratulations Cane. Looks good!

[FWest]

Great job. I have been fooling with my new(old) lathe for a couple of months and hope to make my own 30 cal dies. Sharing your technique will help greatly. Thanks !

[customcutter]

That is fantastic.:mrgreen: As you can see there are a lot of us green with envy. I know you mentioned trimming the factory bullets down and using it for a lap. It never dawned on me that you only had to turn down the straight section. The ogive was left full size. Definitely thinking outside the box. Nice home made collet to hold the bullets with also. I'm seeing the brass screws, so are you using a battery operated drill to lap with, or lapping with the lathe and holding a phillips bit with the chuck in the tailstock? That maybe die #8, but I've only counted 4 with the one the lathe tossed into the stack of boxes. But who's counting, you've got a die that's making some pretty good looking bullets. Now all you have to do is seperate some cases by Mfg, derim, seat cores by weight, doing a little point forming with that new die, and we all want a range report before time to head to church in the AM. Just think, now you can start on dies for all the other calibers you own.:bigsmyl2:

great work,
CC

Edit: Remember to sort your brass by mfg, and if you have any with heavy firing pin marks leave them out. Might affect the grouping. Seems I've heard that most folks prefer the Federal brass IIRC.

[Cane_man]

LOL, just got back from church but didn't have time to hit the range!

I hold the screw for the lap with a pair of pliars :wink: not the best solution in the world but it was the first thing i thought of and it worked... grip the head of the screw in the back part of the pliars and crimp down on the shank longitudinally (not at 90 degrees) if that makes sense and it held on real well... i tried holding it by hand at first and ended up cutting my finger [smilie=b:

ya, i guess i will try to sort by brand and see where that takes me... hopefully range on monday, if not i have to wait until next friday

hope you are having fun with your grand daughters, you are about 10 years ahead of me as my oldest is 18 and going off to school next month in Wyoming- me jealous... time better spent with those girls than with the swaging dies, or maybe you can teach them how to use a lathe?! LOL, i am sure that would get you in trouble with the better half :kidding:

[MrWolf]

Sweet - knew you would get there cane_man. I keep waiting for yours and others posts that have tried making their own dies in anticipation of me getting a lathe. :awesome:

[firefly1957]

Thank you i have my .257 point form die sitting on the bench i have not touched it in far to long looks like we are using the same methods chips keep giving me a headache!

[Cane_man]

^^^ fire, i found out the hard way it is really important to get those chips out of the inside of the die when you are boring/reaming... had to toss a few dies because i was careless when reaming and had bad scoring rings inside the die that could not be lapped out... i know everyone says not to take the die out of the chuck when reaming, but i had to do this several times to get all the chips out, besides that is what lapping is for is to take out the out of roundness and any warpage during heat treating, and to get to final size... ream to within 0.005 of final and you have plenty of room to lap the ID nice and round... after cleaning the chips out of the inside of the die i would then almost fill the die with cutting oil, chuck it back in the lathe and continue reaming... i was paranoid about removing the chips so i could get the smoothest finish possible while reaming, and it paid off... i don't think i advanced the finish reamer more than 0.05" to 0.1" at a time before shutting everything down and cleaning out the die... smoother the finish when reaming the easier the lapping is and the better final finish you get with the die which of course means easier ejection with the top punch...

chuck that die back in the lathe and get back to work and finish up that bad boy :2_high5:

[Cane_man]

Wolf, i want to see pics when you get your lathe, looking forward to it...

[MOcaster]

Wow, that bullet looks nice. Oh wait, that's the Serria!:) Great job, really. I could never do it, and it has nothing to do with the absence of a lathe.

[Forrest r]

Very nice as usual!!!!

That bullet is going to turn in some interesting range reports, looking forward to reading them.

I don't know if you've ever used any of this so I'm going to throw it out there.

76714

It is intended for bbl's but I use it for everything else but bbl's. The automotive industry has really picked up the ball & run with this stuff & taken it to the next level. People have paid attention to this & some have started to use it in other industries/products. Drill bits are a common product that has benefited from the moly treatments. When you see the 3x or 10x longer life on the hss bits it's because they've been treated with moly. Moly gets into the pores of the metal & lubricates it. The lubricated metal ='s less friction, less friction ='s less heat & as you already know when a drill bit gets hot, it's toast. And yes, I do treat my drill bits with this moly. It really helps the 1's I use in the field with cordless drills.

I also use it on gunparts like trigger groups, chamber throats, bolts/firing pins for a better consistent ignition. A s&w model 10 that I finely got around to moly treating the trigger group. This pistol was professionally built & simply treating the already reworked/polished trigger group took another 1/2# off of the already light da trigger pull.

76716

Another area that I use the moly in is with the swagging/sizing dies that I make. It really makes a noticeable difference between a treated & untreated die, it takes a lot less force on the handle after a die has been moly treated.

76715

It's cheap enough & 1 of the little jars lasts a long time:

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/oils-lubricants/lubricant-protectant-oils/moly-bore-treatment-paste-prod988.aspx

If your looking for dies with fantastic ejection, smoother operation & dies that take a lot less force to swage/form/resize things. Do your final lapping/polishing to a mirror finish & then treat them with moly. A good experiment would be to make 2 dies like your 22lr case decapping dies, treat 1 with moly & leave 1 plain and resize some cases with them. You'll easily be able to tell the difference between the 2 by the amount of force you have to use on the press handle.

Just something to think about:

[customcutter]

Forrest,
Thanks for the observation, I know folks have been using moly on barrels and bullets for years. Never thought of using it on cutting tools or possibly dies. I'll have to get some. I know when I was making knives that having a blade cryogenically treated would increase the RC by 1-2 points, but it also would improve the edge holding ability by 2-3 times.

CC

[Cane_man]

Forrest, looks like something to look into for $17, might help with derimming as that is the die that sees the most stress and hardest to swage with, at least for me it is... thanks again for the heat treating tip, it has worked out really well

cc, i started sorting some brass... the Federal cases are the easiest to pick out as they are in better shape than the other brands, next is CCI, then after that they are all about the same... sorted out 110 and i will clean them and go from there... i probably have about 25 lbs of 22LR brass that i have gathered from the range, should last me a few years :D

[Forrest r]

I was just throwing it out there, you guys do enough creating/testing/making things for 10 people. I'm sure both of could easily figure out it's strengths & limitations. It's always nice to be at the tip of the learning curve of a product.

Sometimes it also pays to lay back & think about things for awhile. 1 of a couple squirrels I feed corn to.

76762

After a hard day of working the 13" corn dish over that I feed them in.

76763

Please keep up the good work, results & posts, they are excellent threads to read & follow!!!

[aaronraad]

How sweet it is. Congratulations Cane Man :drinks:

[firefly1957]

Thanks Cane man That was my last attempt when i set the die aside i was getting smoother been working on other things lately. Today i turned a size die for .309 cast boolits no problems with it but i used a mutlifluted tapered reamer to finish it.

[clodhopper]

I wonder if there is some way to either drill or slot the reamer, then run compressed air to the chuck, and up the reamer to help clear chips.

[Nickle]

I would think there has to be a way to do so. You've got to clear chips, or scratch the die. That mandates a slot, and it should be enough to blow chips out. They'll likely continue through the die, as it almost has to have a hole through it, to allow for the pin to eject the bullet.

[Cane_man]

I wonder if there is some way to either drill or slot the reamer, then run compressed air to the chuck, and up the reamer to help clear chips.

what i do that gets much of it out is use the shop vac... retract the reamer, put the suction on the die opening, and then get some type of wooden dowel (shisk-ka-bob skewer) to loosen the chips stuck on with cutting oil... gets most of them out, but since this is basically a blind hole because the hole for the eject punch is 0.047 you can't really tell what is left in there... i try getting a flash light to peek inside but it is really difficult to see in there while the die is in the chuck... only way for me to know that all the chips are out is to take the die out and peek inside with the flashlight shining from the eject punch hole...

[Prospector Howard]

Great job Cane. Now you have 2 point dies with different ogives. You never know what your gun will like the most. Now more fun testing them to find out.

[aaronraad]

I would think there has to be a way to do so. You've got to clear chips, or scratch the die. That mandates a slot, and it should be enough to blow chips out. They'll likely continue through the die, as it almost has to have a hole through it, to allow for the pin to eject the bullet.

Have a look at what they do for gun drilling/deep boring. Chip box, high pressure lubrication etc?

[Cane_man]

cc, looks like those Federal cases tend to fold tips... i have it on good authority that even the best on this site here have come to the same conclusion :shock: about 1 out of 4 will have a folded tip, i think it has to do with the Federal cases being thicker than the others and instead of swaging at the tip and forming they fold over instead... i am getting some ceramic media in and i will polish these up and get back to you...

i am taking a look at these cci cases, they looked pretty good, so i will sort some out and see how they point form

[customcutter]

The only chance I had to make a point forming die, I was using an air hose with 90PSI blowing the chips out. Of course my reamer was too soft and didn't cut properly. Hoping that lots of lube and the comressed air frequently will work.

Cane, sorry about the Federal cases. I'm sure you had them annealed properly, able to pinch with thumb and finger? I didn't know it was necessary to polish the finished bullets? Just for looks or performance? What type, grit, etc of ceramic?

CC

[supe47]

I've had decent luck with Federals. Maybe 1/2 a dozen in 120 with folded tip. I used a little bit to much lube on these. I tried Federals first because others said they were the hardest to work with. They worked well except for the 2 different jacket weights, almost a full grain. For me, Remington has seemed to form the best. I still haven't shot them yet. Also have to try some 50.35 grain hollow point. Next time out. Fed cases with a 46.30 grain core. 56.40 grain average. I haven't dropped a 1/2 or 3/4 grain to give 'em a hollow point yet.
Supe
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77053&d=1374715901

[plus1hdcp]

Looks great

[BT Sniper]

Looking good Supe! was this your 9 or 12 twist?

[supe47]

1-9" twist. Going to give 'em a try in a 1-12" next week. Remington on it's way. I'll do the 50 grainers then also.

[Cane_man]

Cane, sorry about the Federal cases. I'm sure you had them annealed properly, able to pinch with thumb and finger? I didn't know it was necessary to polish the finished bullets? Just for looks or performance? What type, grit, etc of ceramic?

CC

cc no worries at all, its all fun for me and this swaging it addicting, i just cant seem to stop... i swage a few then i say "just one more", then "just one more", and cant stop untill my seated cores are all used up... i gotta cast up more cores today because i burned thru the 200 i made last week!

the polishing is really helpful before point forming i dont really care how pretty they look for shooting, you want those cases as clean and scale free as possible before putting them thru the precious point forming die as it helps with easier ejection and reduces stuck bullets, protect that point forming die with your life as that is the money die!!! i got some 3mm and 6mm ceramic balls for polishing the derimmed cases and i want to get some ss pins as well...

i gotta get some of that moly treatment for my point forming die as i think this might be the poor man's nitriding treatment :Bright idea:

hope you are having fun this week with your grand-daughters...


supe - great looking group! carry on with the good work

[Lizard333]

Don't throw out the folded tips. I have given them away for guys that are fire forming brass or use them as foulers.

[firefly1957]

I have shot one inch 100 yd. groups with the folded tips from my Rossi break open rifle i did lose one on the way to the target i am not sure if the bullet came apart or hit a bug as i had a lot of dragon flies buzzing the area that day. That was Federal Brass and loaded to about 3200 from a 23" barrel (1-12 twist). Most of those will go out of a Mini-14 with 1-10 with a red dot sight so 100 yd. groups are not shot except to sight in.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I haven't done this yet, but I think a lap could be cast with Cerrosafe alloy, which is harder than lead. The advantages are that lining the parallel shank section of the die with tape would let out out of turning it down, and that it could be guided or perhaps even turned with a thin rod extending through the bullet ejector rod hole.

The copper adhesive strip used for making Tiffany-style glass lampshades should be useful for this purpose. I bought a quantity of it many years ago, to make the copper bottom on a ship model. So far I have used it for every imaginable purpose except lampshades and ship models.