Suggestions for "reduced" muzzleloader recipes

[selmerfan]

I've got an in-line Knight American Rifle that shoots well with sabots and .45 cal pistol bullets. My older daughter turned 10 this spring, so she can legally hunt deer with me at her side this fall, and she wants to. We're in a Minnesota "shotgun zone", which means we can legally use shotguns with slugs, center-fire pistols of at least .22 caliber (yeah, pretty liberal wording on that front), and muzzleloaders during the regular shotgun season. I don't have a good slug gun, i.e. rifle pump or bolt, that she can use, and I hunt this area with my TC Encore with a 17" .260 Remington barrel from MGM. She's a good shot with peep sites on her Crickett .22 LR and I have purchase a high-quality Lyman peep with appropriate front fiber-optic site for the muzzleloader. It doesn't have a lot of recoil with 80 gr. of Pyrodex and the sabot projectile, but can I go lower in charge SAFELY to introduce her to the gun? I know she can handle the 80 gr load, but I want to work her up to it so that it is a pleasant shooting experience. Any other suggestions? Thanks!

[rhbrink]

Could reduce the charge down and shoot a patched round ball. Probably would not be the most accurate thing in the world but would OK for some practice and some offhand shootng and learning.

RB

[selmerfan]

I don't have any round balls - only conicals and pistol bullets in sabots. And a 500 gr. conical probably ain't the best choice. :) But the round ball is a good suggestion, thank you!

[OnHoPr]

Yes, you can go lower with the ball or the sabot/bullet. I shoot 60 gr often for getting the scope on paper and plinking. It is a pleasurable shooting charge. That powder charge will also perform enough for a deer at the 50 yds or so reasonable ranges with either the ball or the sabot/pistol bullet combo.

[mooman76]

It's not like smokeless. The ball or conical rests right on the powder and you can go low as you want safely. I suggest do your load work up in reverse. Start at a load you feel comfortable with and drop it 5 grains at a time until you feel you are where you want to be and still have the accuracy and power you need.

[45 Bravo]

Mooman hit it on the nose, as long as the projectile is seated on the charge, you are good to go..

[Mike 56]

I have shot PRBs with as little as 20gr fff black powder. Try 30gr and see how it shoots from there you can adjust your load up or down.

[rhbrink]

I don't shoot a in-line but do have a 50 cal with a 28 inch twist and have shot from 50 grains up to 70 grains of 3FFF blackpowder with a .490 ball with pillow ticking and they all would shoot into a 2 inch group at 50 yards from a rest using open sights. Not world class accuracy but good enough for a little offhand practice and the heavier charge would be enough to take deer with if the range wasn't extended too far. And the recoil was very mild and you could drop down even more as suggested above if needed to just keep the ball on the powder.

RB

[dondiego]

selmerfan - You mentioned that you hunt in a "shotgun" zone and then you mention that you hunt that area with a TC Encore in .260 Rem??? How so?

[kens]

The modern muzzleloaders rifled for sabots are a fast twist for good roundball accuracy. Roundballs use a slow twist for best accuracy.
As long as the sabot or ball is seated on the powder, you can reduce the charge

[selmerfan]

dondiego, we should connect - I'm just down the road in Monte and hunt up near the Nature's Conservancy north of the Milan Bridge. Minnesota opened the shotgun zones to pistol hunting in 2008. There are virtually no cartridge restrictions for pistol hunting, other than it must be a centerfire cartridge of .220" caliber or greater. No rimfires, no .17 cal or .20 cal. Otherwise it's wide open. If you want to use a .25-20 in a Contender with a pistol grip and a 20" barrel, it's fair game. I use a 17" barreled .260 Remington barrel from MGM with the pistol grip and a Leupold 2.5-8x32 scope. I can ring 8" disks with this combo at 300 yds with a decent rest. As far as I'm concerned it is asinine that this is permissible, but a standard centerfire rifle is not. Iowa, which is all shotgun during regular season, also permits pistols. But they must be straight-walled cartridges and they give a defined list of cartridges that are legal. Minnesota's pistol regs for deer are much more liberal. They basically lumped the pistol regs into the legal big game cartridges. http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/regulations/hunting/legalcartridges.html

[dondiego]

selmerfan - A little hard to connect as I live in Michigan, another Great Lake state. We are allowed to hunt with handguns in the shotgun zone here but as in Iowa it must be a straight walled case. I usually just carry my TC .50 cal. Hawken and my Ruger RedHawk .44. It works for me.

I used to live in Sandstone, MN near Duluth. That is a great place to hunt and fish! Take care my friend.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Use your 45 boolits with a sabot and start with 45 colt COWBOY charge of whatever appropriate powder you think. Slowly work up to 1100 fps or thereabouts till grouping suits you. That's a 100 yard deer killing load. Recoil should still be very mild.

Recommend you lightly lube the sabot exteriors with BP lube, regardless of powder, think greasy fingerprints.

Good Shooting to her!

BvT

[selmerfan]

Ha - I saw the "Milan, M" and quit looking - Milan, MN is just up the road from me. :)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I instruct 4H muzzle loading , 4h has a max of 60 gr as part of the rules, we shoot a lot of light loads , a 45 , 50 and 54 can all be shot accurately enough to 100 meters with 60gr FFF , for 25 yard targets 25-30gr of FFFg are all that we use behind a patched round ball , our program guns are all 50s , but I have a 45 and one kid brings a 54.

we found FFFg with a patched RB , using friendship speed juice we can shoot all day without even running a cleaning patch , the FFFg burns better in the light charges and gives us good consistency

30 gr of 777 also works about the same as FFFg we have used it when black wasn't readily available but it costs more

my now 10 year old son even when he was 9 didn't have a problem with 60gr of FFFg from a Kentucky 45 his only problem was holding up 32 inches of barrel , so you may want to build your blind with a rail as a rest or have shooting sticks

as for patched round balls in a fast twist barrel , i shoot them from a 1:28 without any problem , clover leaf 3 shot groups at 50 yards ,some may but it isn't any set rule , i have seen several fast twist barrels do decent with patched round ball

I would drop 60gr FFFg and a patched round ball then back down 10 gr at a time till your at 30 , see how it is on paper at 25 yards , the recoil will be almost none , then set the sights right there and get her a bunch of 25 yard practice from the bench , then move the target out to 50 yards add 10 gr to 40gr , this should be real close to back on with the sights the same as at 25 yards , more practice , then work up 10 gr to 50 and see where it is , then after a few 60 then set the sights right there , I think that will do just fine on a deer at 50 yards with decent shot placement

60gr in my 45 will let me use the same sight settings as at 30gr @ 25 yards at 100 meters
but in my 50 will be a little low

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Wisconsin also does the any center fire pistol 22 or larger in shotgun zones

we hunt a shotgun zone , opening weekend

a 30-30 or 30-06 contender is a popular pistol in shotgun areas. if you could hold on to it you could have a 338 lupaua pistol as long as the barrel was longer than 5 inches measured from the firing pin to end of barrel, When i told my hunting party they could have AK pistols , or AR pistols with 14 inch barrels , and chambered in 223, 300 blackout or 6.8spc they thought that was crazy what was the point od making it a shotgun only if you could use a rifle cartridge pistol , but with the new saboted slugs shots as long as the 30-30s and 32 win spl they used to use were already possible , and a rifle caliber pistol wasn't even needed.

then again a muzzle loader could easily be made to out shoot the 20 and 12ga 2 3/4 inch slugs commonly used.

thing is in most places we get deer , you can't see any further than 100 yards so it really wouldn't make a difference


DNR actually did away with most of the shotgun areas int he last 10 years , we are in one of the few left ,and it has really not caused any problems .