.45ACP recoil spring??

[mikeym1a]

I hope this is in the right forum.

I have an Auto Ordnance 1911a1. This gun is stock, as it came out of the box. The load I selected when I first started shooting is now considered 'enthusiastic'. Where might I get a slightly stiffer recoil spring? And would one of the polymer recoil buffers be advisable? The gun shoots fine with this load, and I am reluctant to change what works, but, I want to treat it well.

Thanks for any advice.

mike:?

[w5pv]

Midway,Brownells.Midsouth,CheaperThan Dirt,Local gunsmiths

[Hawkeye45]

Mike,
Brownells has a recoil spring pack for the 1911 that has several power ratings. I have used them for years and would not be without them. I mark the power rating with different colored nail polish on a few coils on each end.

Mr. Ed

[littlejack]

Mike:
I am in no way an expert on the Model 1911 pistol. BUT,
It has been stated by many of the members here that it is best to shoot ones 1911 with the JMB designed/factory/standard
weight spring. The reason? If you change the spring weight to a heavier spring, the slide can and will batter the frame going
forward back into battery position. This makes perfect sense to me.
I do on occasion shoot some heavy 260 grain loads, but nothing is really gained. If the 230 grain boolits at 850-900 fps second
will not stop what you are trying to stop, I would not bet my life on one of the heavier boolits doing the job.
There has also been a couple of negative reports about the recoil buffers.
Stick with JMB's design.
Jack

[DougGuy]

If it cycles, why does it need a stiffer spring?

I can't agree with the slide battering the frame going forward into battery. The only thing that gets beat are the barrel lugs and the slide stop. Besides that, Colt created the Commander, and the Officer's model by shortening the slide, and compensating with a much heavier spring and they don't suffer from the stiff spring and those slides travel at a MUCH faster rate than the government model. I have used shok buffs also with one out of a couple hundred got turned sideways and had a problem with it rubbing against the slide rail. I like them for 1911.

An old gunny taught me how to pick out a recoil spring by dbl tapping. When the follow up round groups right in there with the first shot, you got it right.

[Char-Gar]

The standard recoil spring is 16 pounds. You can go as heavy as 18 pounds, but after that other issues come to the front and other modifications need to be made to compensate.

I use nothing but 16 and 18 pounds springs in my 1911 pistols. If I had one to choose, it would be the standard 16 pound.

I have tried various recoil buffers over the years and have not found any to my liking. They too cause more problems than they solve.

The original Browning design is very reliable and the pistols long lived. Folks make lots of money making and selling stuff you don't need for these pistols. Others folks make lots of money writing about these things and trying to get you to think you really need them.

[Hunter]

Stick with a 16 pound Wolff recoil spring and stay away from shock buffers. A correctly sprung 1911 does not need a shock buffer and they can be problematic as they begin to break up with usage.

[Outpost75]

Agree, 16-lb. spring is GI standard. 18-lb. may give a bit longer life with alot if hardball and IPSC loads, but above that you nedd tomake other mods to gun which are not helpful long term.

[35remington]

Small radius firing pin stop is the best solution. The original ordinance spec for 1911 spring rates was closer to 14.5 pounds, factually speaking.

What DougGuy is forgetting is the barrel lug feet. They arrest the momentum of the slide and barrel as it returns forward. And where the nonsensical part of comparing Commander spring rates to Government model spring rates occurs is slide momentum. It is the momentum of the slide that strips the round out of the magazine and drives it into battery, and the lighter slide of the Commander has less momentum, thus needs a heavier spring to drive the round home. This higher spring rate does not make the Commander slide harder on the impact areas. Their lesser momentum balances the higher spring rate. The Officers and Commander slides bleed more momentum in the feeding cycle than the Government model does.

Springing a heavier, high momentum Government size slide with a heavy spring is more damaging than running a Commander with an equivalent or even heavier spring in terms of momentum that must be arrested going into battery.

So the spring rate differences are primarily to compensate for the lower momentum of the lighter slides to ensure reliable stripping of the feeding round and return to battery.

The higher spring rate of the Commander has little to do with the impact the barrel lug feet, slide stop hole in the frame and other areas see. The lighter slide momentum compensates.

The other thing that has been forgotten is that the Commander and Officers have less run up before the breechface hits the feeding round on the return stroke of the slide......so have less time to gain momentum, and a lighter slide to make that momentum with. So this is the other reason for the heavier spring in the shortie guns. Jack the slide open to see the greater slide travel before breechface impact with the feeding round in the bigger 1911. Very obvious.

Don't make the mistake of springing a 1911 at a rate it does not need.

[DougGuy]

What DougGuy is forgetting is the barrel lug feet. They arrest the momentum of the slide and barrel as it returns forward.

That's the part I was referring to, not the lugs on top of the barrel as the feet contact the slide stop pin to halt the forward movement of the slide. There is no part of the frame that is battered when it goes forward into battery. That is the part of the post above mine that I was addressing.

[35remington]

Great.

Just realize that comparing Commander and Officers spring rates to Goverment model spring rates and suggesting they punish this area of the barrel lug feet more due to a higher spring rate is not a good argument to make. The lighter slide mass and shorter runup for acceleration of these models is the reason why. The Government model strikes this area harder, and a heavy spring in a Goverment model, as here, is a bad idea for that reason.

[DougGuy]

Great.

Just realize that comparing Commander and Officers spring rates to Goverment model spring rates and suggesting they punish this area of the barrel lug feet more due to a higher spring rate is not a good argument to make.

Let me further clarify.. My post was in response to littlejack's post (#14) where he states the frame can be battered by going forward into battery with a heavier spring. And I cited examples of Colt doing just that, with the Commander and Officer's models, and they don't batter the frame, because the barrel lugs (feet) and slide stop pin was what absorbed the momentum as the gun goes into battery, not the frame.

[35remington]

Great.

But the Commander and Officers batter less. Quoting you, "they don't suffer from the stiff spring." The implication, from your words, is the spring don't matter that much in terms of damage to the pistol.

More correctly.....they don't suffer because their slides are light and the runup short. Spring has much less to do with it, so let's delete that from consideration. Your post seemed to make the idea of spring rate moot, which it most assuredly is not in the OP's pistol.

[DougGuy]

Exactly.. I wasn't arguing at all, it just got perceived differently than what I meant at first.. Back to my first sentence in the first reply, "If it cycles, why does it need a stiffer spring?"

[35remington]

Understood completely. I getcha.

My point is that we need to leave the Commander and Officer's out of the discussion. They struggle to maintain sufficient slide momentum for cycling despite different spring rates and are a different animal than a Government.

[KCSO]

Rant ON

DO NOT put in a rubber buffer! They will eventually come apart and tie up the gun, this will only happen when you need the gun the most. If you insist on a rubber baby buggy bumper take it OUT before you leave the range or use it only on a target gun that you can afford to lose points with. There is no problem with putting in an 18 pound spring if you feel you need it, but if you change out the 16's when they get weak you will accomplish the same objective. WAY too many 1911 IMPROVMENTS aren't suited for a duty or carry gun and just mess up the works. Guide rods, extended ambi this and thats adjustable sights ect are not needed. On the street you aren't shooting for points and you want power and reliability not doo dads. Samo Samo with magazines, get metal mags with welded bottoms for real using.

[jakharath]

I change out my 16# springs when the slide starts feeling sloppy. Can't really explain but it doesn't feel right. If I'd keep track of how many rounds go thru the gun I would change them every 3 to 4K rounds.

[TCLouis]

Mikeym1a et al.

I recently came into an unfired Auto Ordnance 1911 with a note on the box saying trigger is 4.5#. Knowing little or nothing about this or any 1911 45 Semi, did you have any troubles with feeding with yours? I have been sitting on this thing since last fall trying to decide what to do with it.

As with anything I shoot, it has to shoot cast to make me happy and over the years I have noted that some 1911s do not like feeding cast without a bit of fiddling.

If I wanted to do much fiddling with a gun, it would be making a performer out of a wheel gun or bolt gun.

[Char-Gar]

Unless the handgun is seriously defective, a 1911 design pistol will feed cast bullets with ease. IF...IF...IF..you chose a bullet that was designed right from the start. A good 230 grain round nose, or a 200-215 grain SWC like Hensley and Gibbs 68 or Lyman 452460 will feed in a box stock pistol.

The 1911 pistol is a hundred years old and was designed right in 1911. They are not finicky about ammo that was designed for the original pistol. When folks try to improve on the original Browning pistol and/or start to play games with the ammo, is when people start to have problems.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Interesting! Like the U.S.Constitution, the further you get away from the original article the more problems you have! John Browning did know what he was doing and almost 98% of auto pistols today are a variation on it!

I use a stock spring,NO buffer,and H&G clone #68 boolits,no problems!

[exile]

I just bought a 16 pound and a 14 pound spring directly from Wolff, could not find them anywhere else.

[mikeym1a]

Mikeym1a et al.

I recently came into an unfired Auto Ordnance 1911 with a note on the box saying trigger is 4.5#. Knowing little or nothing about this or any 1911 45 Semi, did you have any troubles with feeding with yours? I have been sitting on this thing since last fall trying to decide what to do with it.

As with anything I shoot, it has to shoot cast to make me happy and over the years I have noted that some 1911s do not like feeding cast without a bit of fiddling.

If I wanted to do much fiddling with a gun, it would be making a performer out of a wheel gun or bolt gun.
Mine was bought over 30 years ago. New in box. I started out with hardball, and due to funds constraints, I switched to cast boolits, WW's. Actually 10lbs WW to 1lb 50/50. Lee 200gr semiwadcutter/microgroove, LLA lubed. I have never had a failure to feed or fire with any load I have put through the gun. Gee. Just looking at this, it doesn't seem like 30 years. But my kids are all in their 30's, and I taught them to shoot it as soon as they were big enough to hold it properly. Since they left home, I haven't shot all that much, just once in a while. While they were home, during the summer, we'd be out shooting at least every other weekend, several hundred rounds each time. I guess I've put 3,000-4,000 rds through the .45. Maybe time to change the recoil spring. As far as my cast boolit load is concerned, never had any problem with leading. I knew nothing about boolit fit or seal. I cast them, lubed them, loaded them, and shot them. And I generally hit the tin cans I was shooting at. (instant gratification, seeing the can dance!) Recently checked the barrel of the .45 & my .32. No leading. I guess I got lucky.

[nicholst55]

For some forgotten reason, I installed a recoil buffer in my 1911 before I went overseas. I was probably shooting some rather stout ammo and felt that I needed it. Fast forward four years to my return to the States, and I couldn't figure out why the gun was suffering maybe 50% feed failures with factory hardball per magazine. Upon disassembly I saw the recoil buffer in there, and immediately removed it. All is right with the world again and my 1911 runs flawlessly!

I honestly can't remember why I installed the stupid thing in the first place, and I never will again. They are totally useless and akin to snake oil IMHO.

[mikeym1a]

76394

This is a pic of my reloads. As I said, it's the Lee 200gr semi-wadcutter/microgroove. LLA lubed. Don't remember what the load was. I'd have to find my loading manual for the specifics. But, I do remember that it was under the max listed in the Speer manual I was using at the time. The profile is very similar to the H&G that was shown on the last page. Like I said, I have never had a failure to chamber with this boolit. The one doesn't look like the other. The light one is a Blazer hull. It is stamped N/R, for Not Reloadable. You'll remember that they were berdan primed. I took that N/R as a challenge. I reasoned that the primer pocket would be the same size as the boxer, since it was made by CCI. So, I used a small punch, and punched the center of the web in the case head, used a leetle drill bit to start, then a bit larger one to bring it out to the primer punch size, after getting the hole deep enough, I used a lee loader deprimer to punch it out. I then resized the case, tried to seat a primer, and was successful. I have about 200 of these hulls which have been reloaded 4 or 5 times each, and they show no signs of deterioration. One day I picked up a box of what I thought was .45 empties, and opened it, and it was the Blazer hull reloads, ready to go. I was surprised how light the blazers were compared to the brass hulls. :-)

[mikeym1a]

I change out my 16# springs when the slide starts feeling sloppy. Can't really explain but it doesn't feel right. If I'd keep track of how many rounds go thru the gun I would change them every 3 to 4K rounds.
I have to admit that a lot of what was said on this page was over my head, but, I did gather two things. 1) It would be prudent to change the recoil spring very 3,000 - 4,000 rds, and I have put about that many through it. and 2) the recoil buffer is undesirable. So, I'll get another recoil spring, and will not get a recoil buffer. Speaking of recoil buffers, Quite some time ago, I bought my daughter a Davis .32 auto. We fired it quite a bit, and put about 1,000 rds through it. Cracks appeared in the slide at the muzzle. I guess my hand loads were a bit too much for it. So, I found her a Davis .380. It appeared to have the same frame, and slide, but had a spring loaded recoil buffer for the slide to bounce on at the end of travel. We fired that gun on one occasion. Less than half a box of cartridges. We had 8 jams or failure to feeds. It went back into the box and has stayed there. I actually liked the little gun, it was just too lightly built. And it seemed that the recoil buffer was what caused the jamming. it's still in its box, in a box under the bed. I occasionally get the urge to tinker with it, but, I put it away when the urge stops. I really don't like having a gun I can't shoot, even though I might not. It's the principal of the thing.
;-)

[mikeym1a]

For some forgotten reason, I installed a recoil buffer in my 1911 before I went overseas. I was probably shooting some rather stout ammo and felt that I needed it. Fast forward four years to my return to the States, and I couldn't figure out why the gun was suffering maybe 50% feed failures with factory hardball per magazine. Upon disassembly I saw the recoil buffer in there, and immediately removed it. All is right with the world again and my 1911 runs flawlessly!

I honestly can't remember why I installed the stupid thing in the first place, and I never will again. They are totally useless and akin to snake oil IMHO.
Now that I have thought about it some, some memories have returned. At one time they were recommended by someone to lessen the battering that the gun took in normal operation. I never bought one back then, nor did I buy the recoil spring guide, which I thought looked silly. Guess I'm glad I never did. I'll learn from your experience. Thanks!

[MtGun44]

Shot hundreds of thousands of rounds thru 1911s with shock buffs and never
had one "tie up the gun". Perhaps it is possible, but not a serious problem, IME.

Leave the springs alone.

Bill

[LuvMy1911]

Just starting to cast for my 1911... It seems very happy with the lee 452-200-sw and 50/50 COWW/pure lead running just a little slower than factory 200 grain ammo. The mold uses the regular lube (not LLA).

Good luck with your spring decision... most knowledgable folks have tried to convince me to not change from stock config the 1911 (I've always regretted ignoring that advice the two times I did)

[Jammersix]

There is no free lunch in engineering. You change something, you will have an effect on something else.

The recoil spring is not there to absorb recoil, in spite of it's name. Most of the recoil is absorbed by the mainspring.

It's one thing to change components when you know exactly what you're doing, how the weapon works, where you are, where you want to go and how you want to get there, but if that isn't the case, you're going to run into unintended consequences.

How the 1911 works is not a mystery. It's been documented for a century.

But nothing is free.

Fishing lures are not designed to catch fish. They're designed to catch fishermen. Shock buffs are fishing lures, will jam your weapon, and do nothing for it.

[MtGun44]

In 30+ yrs of IPSC, never saw a shock buff "jam your gun". I have hundreds of thousands of rounds
through many 1911s with shock buffs and never had one tie up a gun. They DO shorten the
cycle of the gun slightly, and if you have something else wrong with the gun or mag system, or
ammo, I suppose you might have issues, I never have. They DO minimize the sharpness of the impact on
the frame of the slide at the end.

Keep the springs stock, and if you want to run a shock buff, it won't hurt anything. Check it
every so often (I used to change them every 5000 rds or so, and they were VERY beat at that
point, should probably be changed more often) and change when it is getting beat up pretty
bad.

Are they a "must have" piece of gear? NO, but I do believe that for guns that are shot a LOT,
and I mean 10,000 rds per year or more, they will minimize the wear and tear. I have several
1911s that have well north of 80,000 rounds and are in great shape. I put some of this up to
the shock buffs, but MOSTLY because the 1911 design is superior and I always lube the gun every time
before a match or practice session.

Bill

[Forrest r]

I've used the shock buffers for decades in several different 1911's/1911 calibers & never had a problem with them. But then again I change my recoil spring every 3,000 to 3,500 rounds.

While I'm thinking about recoil springs:
I used to own/shoot a steel framed 70 series colt commander. When I'd shoot target loads in it (452460/hg 68's) I'd use the same standard 10# springs that I'd use in my full size 1911's. Never had any,
feeding problems
stripping the round out of the factory or aftermarket mags
ftf's
fte's
Nothing ran like a top!!!!
I kept hitting the loud button & it kept going bang.
Go figure.

[dnotarianni]

I just called up John Browning and told him about different springs and buffers and wanted his opinion. All I got was silence for an answer. Guess you should stick with 16 lbs and no buffer.

Dave

[AviatorTroy]

I do use a Wilson Combat buffer in a Range Officer but its only a target pistol, I don't carry with it, compete with it, and I change them often. Also run the Wilson Combat mags never found a better one!

One caveat on the buffer, I also have a Star PD and it had a buffer from the factory, which long ago disintigrated. I had to make a new one from a WC buffer, a piece of brass tubing, and a spring, because the original one was nothing like the new ones. To each his own...

[yeahbub]

I'll second MtGun44 and Forrest's experiences with shock buffs. They've given me good service in most I've tried them in, softening the blow of the slide against the frame. As noted, they will shorten slide travel .060 or .080 and this may be a consideration in some 1911's with short travel, as the slide may not want to lock open after the last round. One foreign-made 1911 I played with had overly generous slide travel and could easily accommodate 2 shock buffs and the slide locks back just fine. One big help with shock buff longevity is to add a .030 steel washer between the spring and the buff, to distribute the spring's force and the slide's impact over the entire surface of the urethane. This also prevents the spring biting into or through it over time, as has been noted on one "closet queen", so they may well be considered a perishable item, unlike the 1911 itself.

As for heavier springs, I agree with the comments regarding unnecessarily battering the pistol with the added stored energy. I used an 18 lb. spring for some years and never had any negative repercussions, but others have put 20 and 22 lb. spring in them which, in one case, bent the barrel bushing tab forward and bound the barrel. Instant show stopper. That fellow was convinced to use the original spring very quickly.

[375RUGER]

On an auto ordnance you may end up replacing it soon anyway. HAD to replace the spring, sear, and hammer on SWMBO AO after only a few hundred rounds. Material is way too soft. It is her carry gun, I'm glad it didn't malfunction in time of need. She has a new Kimber on the way now and this AO can just be a plinker.

[brasshog]

I carried my Springfield "Enhanced" model for ten years before I upgraded on everything. Understand that I carried this gun every single day for ten years (wife hated the 1911 holes in my shirts) and since I worked at a range on the weekends she saw alot of action. I did not "need" to change anything but I wanted to. She (Sue-Anne) got a Dwyer Group Gripper the day that I bought here along with Wilson buffs. Whe I upgraded she got a Wolf 25lb spring amongst everything else. Did she need it ? Nope but she will shove a projectile inside a case some and fire it if she doesn't like the profile of the bullet. She will collapse a truncated hollow point if you load her +1 too many times. There is no frame battering at all even with my sensible hog loads or her steady diet of 230gr Gold Dots. Only the frame (cut for memory groove beaver tail), slide, barrel and sights remain somewhat (dehorned) original now. She was "upgraded" almost 12 years ago and to this day has NEVER failed to fire. Not once. EVER. Hence why she is now retired and has the most honorable of firearm positions in my home. The nightstand. After 20+ years of "duty" it is Sue-Anne that I trust with my life at 2am . My 2 cents.

P.S.-She sleeps in her first dress that I bought for her those long years ago. A Bianchi #5 aside 10 loaded Wilson combat mags.:smile:

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I thought the reason for a lighter recoil in the 1911 was to help the pistol function with target loads. Conversely, would't the gun need a stronger spring for more powerful loads? Just aski'n. I know next to nothing on the subject. I do know that the only 1911 I have ever owned that would function with cast bullets was the one I got throught the DCM. It was a WWI Colt and it never jammed with simi wadcutters.

[MtGun44]

The factory 230 ball ammo IS the "stronger load" - and needs a 16 lb spring. If you are
going to overload the gun - then you are going to break stuff eventually and a heavier
spring isn't going to lower the loads, and actually increases the closing load on the barrel
lugs, feet and link.

Bill