Swaged bullet consistency

[Love Life]

Hello all,

I'll start out by saying I have never swaged a bullet in my life. I have been watching BTSniper bring his products to market and constantly refine them in the pursuit of perfection. I plan to jump into swaging once 308 and 6mm dies are on the table and in production.

That being said I have a few questions that I haven't seen the answers for.

How consistant are the bullets you are swaging with the BTSniper dies? I'm not concerned with weight as that is ieasy to control. I am concerned with:

1) Ogive placement. Do you get consistent base to ogive measurements or are they all over the place like normal production bullets? have any of you run these through a comparator?
2) How concentric are the bullets made? Have any of you run them through a concentricity gauge?
3) Do the above vary with the amount of force you use for swaging? Say if you pull the handle a little harder than the last time will there be variations in the ogive location or anything else?
4) How repeatable are the settings as you swap out dies in the press. Does everything remain the same as the last time you had the specific die in the press to perform that operation? Would it be advantageous to have multiple presses so you don't get variations in the completed bullets by having to swap out dies?

I thank you all for your time and all the information I have gleaned so far.

Thank you,
Dick

[jameslovesjammie]

I have similar interest with pretty much the same questions.

[GRUMPA]

Never mind, I read it a bit closer and got my own answer..

[Love Life]

Oh dear. I hope I didn't fart in church...

[customcutter]

I doubt that most people have the gauges or ability to use them. I know I don't. I have 2 lathes, 2 milling machines, a surface grinder and several thousand dollars of tooling but none of the gauges you mentioned.

CC

[Love Life]

I reckoned bullet comparators and concentricity gauges would be used by at least some shooters. I have the tools if somebody would like to borrow them and take some measurements.

[BLASTER62]

Dick: The answer to your questions are several, the best is to have multiple presses. You can and should check your dimentions with quality mic's while setting up, I keep samples of bullets so I can match OAL's & Ogive's. Your lead mix needs to be the same as well, I use a Junke Compartor on my good bullets, if you use the correct swage punch to fill out the jackets and try to use stroke & speed you will get a quality bullet. The Ogive will be at the same place if you check your dimentions & dont use too much lube. Always check your numbers as your working make sure nothing moved on the press, also helps to use good die's & equipment. My 2 cents worth.. AL

[Nickle]

I have the gauges mentioned, and have been using them for a while.

Are hand swaged bullets as good as mass produced bullets, to include Sierrra (and others) match bullets? This assumes using J4 jackets, not reclaimed 22 LR cases.

No, they're better. My experience has been they (made with J4s) are more consistent when measured, and definitely more consistent when shot. I've been using them when competing. Swaged bullets made from reclaimed 22 LR cases, I'm not sure how consistent yet. That's going to take some time, but others that would know say they are about as good as mass produced premium/match bullets.

But, let's ask a real tough question for some of you. Is your gun up to getting any advantage from using swaged bullets?

If you're gun is only capable of 1 MOA, probably not. If it's a good factory hunting grade bolt gun, shoots .375 to 1 MOA, it's going to be tough to tell at the best. Using a rifle that's on the better end of that is easier, of course.

If you've got a really good varmint rifle, or a match gun made for shooting bench rest, then you can tell. I'll give you a good idea as to how good they are. Read a few match reports, and you'll soon see the vast majority of bench rest competitors are using bullets swaged with J4 jackets. Nobody uses reclaimed 22 cases, but that's mostly because they aren't quite as good, but still can be better than mass produced. Most of them buy bullets swaged by a small few of producers too.

Now, if you're swaging yourself, you can either save a LOT of $$$ using reclaimed 22 cases, or get top quality bullets that cost a bit more. All depends on what you're using for jackets. I use both, each for the appropriate use.

[R.Ph. 380]

Hello all,

I'll start out by saying I have never swaged a bullet in my life. I have been watching BTSniper bring his products to market and constantly refine them in the pursuit of perfection. I plan to jump into swaging once 308 and 6mm dies are on the table and in production.

That being said I have a few questions that I haven't seen the answers for.

How consistant are the bullets you are swaging with the BTSniper dies? I'm not concerned with weight as that is ieasy to control. I am concerned with:

1) Ogive placement. Do you get consistent base to ogive measurements or are they all over the place like normal production bullets? have any of you run these through a comparator?
2) How concentric are the bullets made? Have any of you run them through a concentricity gauge?
3) Do the above vary with the amount of force you use for swaging? Say if you pull the handle a little harder than the last time will there be variations in the ogive location or anything else?
4) How repeatable are the settings as you swap out dies in the press. Does everything remain the same as the last time you had the specific die in the press to perform that operation? Would it be advantageous to have multiple presses so you don't get variations in the completed bullets by having to swap out dies?

I thank you all for your time and all the information I have gleaned so far.

Thank you,
Dick

So far, I haven't received my Point Forming die but with all my other dies, I use the Hornady Lock N Load Quick Change bushings, even in my Rock Chucker which I converted for ease of use. I can assure you the die stays set up in the exact configuration it was in when I removed it from the press. To go from core swage to Core seat, All I have to do is change the die body in the press, One simple twist and the bushing seats to the same spot it was. Saves me3 a lot of set up time.

Bill

[Zymurgy50]

The die settings in my Corbin press could be repeatable if I bought extra tool holders, punches, and locking rings, (times at least 3, maybe 4) per caliber of dies, plus at least 2 more of each for each weight of bullet).
I will make up 3-4 thousand cores at one time, and run about 1000 through core seating and point forming each time without changing settings or dies. This gives me 1000 bullets of what I call the same "lot". I believe that this gives me the most consistent way of minimizing one of the variables inherent in this process.

[Love Life]

Thank you for your answers everybody.

Nickle- You brought up a good point. Commercial jackets VS Rimfire jackets. I was looking for info on bullets swaged with commercial jackets, but info on the rimfire jackets can only help.

I would like to get into swaging, not to save money, but to make better (read more consistant) bullets for myself. I can buy a whole bunch of matchkings for the price of swaging dies...if matchkings are available. Plus when you break open a fresh box of matchings it makes your heart kind of sad as you dig in to the process of sorting by weight, then base to ogive, etc.

I have a rifle that will show you what your bullets are doing and if they are quality. It will be rebarreled with a barrel that will do the same for the new caliber. I have been reading so many reviews on swage dies that my fricking brain hurts. One thing I have notice: All die makers have a long wait list. That is fine with me as quality is worth the wait as long as I don't croak first!

I like the attention to detail BTSniper has put in his dies, and from what the reviews say, his dies are up there with the Corbin brothers. The ones who stand apart are Detsch and Neimi. Of course you REALLY have to PAY to PLAY with the last two die makers' stuff.

I'm trying to make as informed of a decision as possible and your input very much helps.

[customcutter]

Nickle,

It doesn't suprise me that you would have the equipment. You shoot competitively, and also mfg/sell ammunition. Thanks for your observations. As you said, being able to measure and repeat those differences is the difference in 1MOA and .25MOA., if your rifle (and you) are capable.:-D

CC

[Wolftracker]

Good questions. I'd say home swaged are better than mass produced bullets. Consistent technique and materials is the key. I guage my quality by the accuracy I get from my firearms, which are what the average guy has and can afford. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I've heard nothing but good things about BT's equipment and may buy some someday if I need to (I presently use Corbin produced equipment and dies). The cool thing about swaging is the range of creativity you can apply to it. I even alter cast bullets to shoot better than anything you can buy and they are also unique!

[Nickle]

I think you'll find Bill Niemi got out of it. I don't think his son Brian took it over.

All that said, I will be checking it out. I know both of them, and they don't live but a couple of hours from me. And, seeing my old Guard unit is up that way, I can come up with an easy excuse to go visit. I will also be dropping by my old friends, the Euber brothers. They're just a few towns away, same county.

If Bill is still in the business, I'll be posting that up.

LL, those are the best reasons, and part of why I'm going into it.

[MUSTANG]

I do not have the measurement capabilities to validate consistency as described, but it seems I am getting pretty consistent results by recording die position for a specific die in a specific press. Below are my settings that produce a 60 Grain Bullet (59.8 grains to 60.1 grains as measured through over 250 rounds - Variation is predominantly coming from the weight of the 22LR jackets which are all the same brand). I have placed a "Witness Mark" at 12 O'Clock on my Corbin Die Punch Holder to use in measuring thread turns.

Derimming:

14 & 1/8 turns of the die into the threads.

Core Swaging:

49.9 Grain core (+ or - .05 grain variation achieved as measured by hundreds of cores) - 26.75 turns into thread.


Core Seating:

49.9 Grain core - 20.75 turns into thread.

Nose Forming:

49.9 Grain core


1st Step - 20.75 Turns

2nd Step - 24.6 Turns

I found that using a 2 step nose formation process improved the noses of my bullets.

I have a similar schedule I have created for each weight I produce (45, 55, 60, 70 & 80 Grains).

These readings are only good for my press/dies/punches. If I change any component I would have to re-validate and build a new schedule around the new combination of swaging equipment pieces used. I can see the difference in both bullet appearance (repeatability) and in groups.

It may not be quantifiable through measurement, but it has worked for me and may work for others seeking to improve their repeatability through process control, even if the do not have the means to measure it.

Mustang

[plus1hdcp]

Great info Mustang!

[Utah Shooter]

I think you'll find Bill Niemi got out of it. I don't think his son Brian took it over.
I think that his boy did take over for a while but then got out of it.

Mr Deutsch is still making them out of Carbide though. His dies seem to be as good as they get.

[Nickle]

Yeah, it's a shame. I could have had the first barrel to go outside their family. I did Bill a huge favor at a match one January, and helped save his day. I gave him a little info, and it made a huge difference.

Suffice it to say H322 doesn't light well at -20, and I'm not so sure he used it again. A lot were, and they packed their guns early that day. Me, I was using H4895, offered Bill some, and I knew the interchange. He used some Norma powder he had instead, it worked.

[Love Life]

I'm assuming that your bench needs to be 100% rock solid. No movement or flex whatsoever.

I have looking at presses for swaging and I like the CH4d one and the one made by U.P. North looks like it can swage steel!!

I'm (and match bullet prices) to the point where I am tired of buying match bullets and hoping it is a "Good" batch. MatchKings aren't cheap, and then I have to sort them.

I have no plans to make a business out of it as the market is incredibly saturated.

[BT Sniper]

Some great names in the swaging game mentioned here. I can only hope to be mentioned someday in the same circles.

For making 6mm and 30 cal, or any caliber riffle bullets from 20 up to at least 338 any decent reloading press will work very well. Check out Dave Detsch's web site as well as others using his dies and you will see they are making benchrest winning bullets on Redding and RCBS presses. http://www.diemaker.us/ that was the last web address I had for him but I can't seem to find the site now???

http://www.precisionballisticsllc.com/How_I_Build_My_Bulle.html

Check out the above link. I have talked a little with the gentlemen making these bullets using Detsch dies and Redding presses. I have developed a lot of my products with the same concepts and ideas used in these high end set ups yet still using simple yet well made reloading presses. Unless you plan to make bullets larger then 40 cal pistol bulets or 375 riffle bullets I am pretty happy with the results I get from my Lee Classic Cast press. Some times bigger isn't always better with the large presses. Of course if you are making large pistol bullets in the 200 grain plus range then sure, the more power the better. I have a RCE Seagirt press I like a lot for making bullets 40 cal and larger.

In the same link posted above it shows the tools he uses to check the constancy of the bullets made. The base to ogive measurement is taken and easily measured but the "concentric" measurement of a bullet with short baring surfaces..... I don't know any other way then to measure with a good Micrometer. I use a Mitutoyo micrometer good to .0001 to measure the base of the bullets. Turn the bullet several times taking many measurements. When I do my part on the machining and lapping I can keep the total variation on bullet diameter very tight. If the OP has the necessary measuring tools I may consider sending you a few of my latest 6mm bullets to check out.

There is no better time to start making your own bullets. There are a few of us out there able to supplying everything you need. As you will see there is a bit of a range in just how much you can spend. A quality set of benchrest dies from Detsch or Niemi would be awesome! Run the numbers on cost, Corbin you need his expensive press, if you could get a set of Detsch dies (more expensive) yet use a less expensive press.... well that would make more since to me. I do not have the ability yet to EDM (cut) Carbide yet I strive to make my steel dies as close as possible. I am certainly happy with the results I am getting, especially with the nitride processing of the dies. It may not be quite as good as solid carbide but my goal is to provide better quality then any other set of steel swage dies out there.

I tell all those that contact me with questions, "among the current suppliers of quality swage dies you would be well served with whoever's set of dies you choose." It is a lot of fun making your own bullets and the potential rewards are many, whether it be on target or just in the freedom to make your own when others can't.

I say good shooting and swage on!

BT

[BT Sniper]

oh.. as far as your reloading bench solid is good. Check the link I mentioned, you will see his set up. Just a good sturdy table.

Setting the dies for the same desired results??? I provide lock rings for all my dies and threaded base punches to go with a new ram top in the Lee Classic press. I would like to think that repetable results are obtained this way, even when removed and then returned to/from the press. Of course as mentioned already, sitting down and making an entire lot of bullets in one sitting is probably best method for constancy. It is a great benefit to have more then one press. Set up one press for each step of the process. With 3 presses and dies for a typical quality riffle cal bullet you would have the perfect set up. Stage 1- core swage, Stage 2- core seat, Stage 3- point form. Add a 4th if you wish to derim (which by the way benefits from a strong press). With a decent reloading press, like the Lee I can set up each step of the process for only the cost of an additional $100 press. Makes sense again to me but like I said it also pays to explore all options and get exactly what you want. Swage dies are expensive and I have learned with any expensive purchase it is better to only cry once and buy exactly what you want rather then getting anything less.

BT

[Love Life]

BTSniper,

Thank you for stepping in and answering my questions. I hope my OP did not come across as me thinking your dies are sub par or garbage. Far from it!! I have strong Google-Fu and there are quite a bit of reviews of your dies on other forums and all are positive and they are right in competition with other high name die manufacturers. I just had not seen anybody run their swaged (either commercial or rimfire jackets) bullets through tools I thought common to the shooters who would be interested in making the best bullets possible so, I came to the source!

I have some commercial jackets coming for 308, but no dice on .243 yet. The only option I see there right now is to order .224 jackets and get the stuff needed to make them into .243 jackets.

I would love the opportunity to check some of your bullets from your lates 6mm dies. I would gladly send you some 308 jackets in return. I'll PM you.

[BT Sniper]

No offence at all. You are asking the right questions.

Every day that passes my technique and quality is improving. I continue to excel and strive that someday I will be able to match or top the bench rest shooter's dies and bullet expectations.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

p.s. 243 jackets will depend on how heavy you wish to make. Sierra 6mm jackets are .810 in length and should make up to 85 grains. I have some and can tell you for certain at a later date. I placed the order with Sierra a while ago before this years mess but it wasn't in stock then either, still I had it in a month or two from them. I am certain they would come threw again, I would certainly prefer that rout over trying to expend 22 cal jackets. For that matter I am very pleased with how my jackets turned out from 22mag or 17 hmr brass and would go that route too before I attempted to expand 22 cal jackets to 243.

[Randy C]

:coffeecom

[Racenviper]

RCE Seagirt is not offered on his site anymore. The links I have are dead.

[Reload3006]

he is no longer making the Seagirt. He got so far behind and intends to stay a one man shop that he has consolidated his product line to only the walnut hill press.

[BT Sniper]

That's to bad. The sea girt was a heck of a bargain and a good press. His WH press is good too I'm sure.

BT