RCBS-357-180-SIL for cowboy rifle silhouette

[six_gun]

I shoot Cowboy Rifle Silhouette with a Rossi 92 carbine.

I would like to work up a load that will reliably take down 200 yard rams. These rams are at the Blacks Creek Range at Boise and are usually hard to knock down. I have had good, center hits with my 30-30 using a 150gr jacketed bullet starting out at 1700fps that rang a ram with 3 hits in a row. I have also rang them using the same 30-30 with 190gr bullets going about the same mv.

I have a RCBS-357-180-SIL mold that throws bullets at about 195gr using my alloy. They are a bit heavier using a gc.

I also have some LC 180gr bullets and a few LBT cast bullets that run about 190 gr.

I figure I need a load that will get over 1800fps mv and is reasonably accurate to boot.

I was thinking maybe trying Lil Gun, for the first time. I was also wondering if a slower powder, like 4227 or AA1680 might be a little better from my 20 inch barrel than 296 or H110.

I don’t want to go out and cause cases to separate or ruin my rifle. I just want to kill them rams with a 357 mag. The guys at Blacks Creek claim it can’t be done. Now it is a challenge.

Any ideas???

Let me know your thoughts,
Sixgun

[imashooter2]

15 grains of Lil' Gun under a 180 grain cast TC only gets 1,700 fps average out of my 18.5 inch 1894C. Over 1,800 fps with a 195-200 grain bullet is bit ambitious in .357 mag.

[JSH]

Here is some good reading on the combo you are working with, only in a pistol.
http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotFreedomArms357CastBulletPT2.htm

I have used this in a 10" TC and have never rang a ram. I have hit them in about every part and they have all went over. Are yours full footed? You may have to go with a 200+ to get the job done if they will chamber. A fellow shooter this past weekend was using an FA with a 220LBT that shot very well.
Jeff

[six_gun]

I don't know where they got these targets but they are a varity or shapes and sizes. The feet are different sizes too. For a stand, they use an upside down railroad rail which can turn in its mounting. To top it all off, they can be very strict about scoring hits that are good but do not knock the ram down.

Most of the club members use 38-55s or 45-40s and I have seen them ring rams.

BTW, I liked the article from rnaging shot. It had some good info.

Also, this is just a challange to me to see if I can get a 357 to consistantly knock down the rams. I usually use my 30-30 on this range and have done quite well with it, winning 3 out of the four matches I have shot there.

Sixgun

[26Charlie]

I have had good results in a Rossi carbine with similar 180 gr. bullets, although I don't have the RCBS mould. I have a Saeco 180 gr. GC, a NEI-SSK 180 gr. PB, and have used some Northeast commercial cast 180 gr. bullets, all with 16.5 gr. H110 and a small rifle primer.
These loads all shoot well in a Ruger Blackhawk and in a S&W M686 also. It is about as hot as I want to go, and pushes 1750-1800 fps in the Rossi.

As an aside, I have seen a 500 gr. .45-70 ring a ram - the bullet evidently struck low center, where the effort to topple was counterbalanced by the friction of the feet, so the whole ram was just shoved rearward a tiny bit and there was no torque on it to send it over.

[carpetman]

Six Guns---You are having problems knocking down the rams at the Black Creek club in Boise? Heck Ol Starmetal can set on his porch in TN and do it on a regular basis except when his bullet goes through the one hole and doesnt touch the sides.

[StarMetal]

Carpetman is right. But..my rifle is a little unorthadox, that is I continued the research of the Nazi super cannon on further except with shoulder held rifles...well benchrested. They have a super long barrel and the bullet is saboted and I have a chemist make me special slow burning powder. The thing that Ray forgot to mention is that I need a spotter because I sure have taken out alot of folks windows and they hadn't a clue where the bullet come from. So now I have a spotter and he cells phones me and I get on target. One interesting side note is my super rifle does use a cast bullet but no lube because like I said it's saboted.

Joe

[waksupi]

Sixgun, for grins and giggles, drop the load down to around 14-1500 fps. The added dwell time may push them over.

[w30wcf]

six_gun,

THANK YOU for showing the boys what the good old .30-30 can do in the right hands!! I use the RCBS 180SP (192grs. in w.w.+2% alloy and higher retained velocity due to the better b.c.)pushed to 2,000 f.p.s. with a load of 36grs. of H414. It does a nice job on full set rams. I also use the Old West 205 gr. bullet which has a similar profile.

Obviously, if the rail is not solid, that makes it more difficult to knock the rams over since the rail is moving in concert with the ram after bullet impact.

With regards to the .357, the 200 gr. RCBS bullet (212 grs. in w.w.+2% tin) would be better, but my Rossi won't stabilize them because of the slow (over 1/30 twist). THey shoot great in my friends .357 Marlin Cowboy which has the faster 1/16" twist and has become THE BULLET for downing those 200 Meter rams.

The 180 RCBS silhouette bullet (192 grs. in w.w.+2% tin alloy from my mould) shoots well from my Rossi using 296 powder. 1,650 f.p.s. is about all I can muster safely from the 20" barrel. Even if you could gain another 100 f.p.s. with a different powder, the additional velocity advantage has reduced considerably after the bullet has transversed 200 meters.

I have found that every ram is an individual animal (bowed, flat, leaning back, straight, leaning forward, set differently, wind direction, etc.) when I did some close range testing a number of years ago. Rams that were set exactly the same and appeared the same would react differently to a 150 gr. cast bullet impacting at about 1,500 f.p.s. hitting a spot 4" up from the botttom of the belly, centered. Some would fall, some wouldn't! Hmmmmm.......

SIncerely,
w30wcf

[Herb in Pa]

Carpetman is right. But..my rifle is a little unorthadox, that is I continued the research of the Nazi super cannon on further except with shoulder held rifles...well benchrested. They have a super long barrel and the bullet is saboted and I have a chemist make me special slow burning powder. The thing that Ray forgot to mention is that I need a spotter because I sure have taken out alot of folks windows and they hadn't a clue where the bullet come from. So now I have a spotter and he cells phones me and I get on target. One interesting side note is my super rifle does use a cast bullet but no lube because like I said it's saboted.

Joe
So you're the guy that owes me for 2 windows and a plasma TV!!

[JohnH]

Can't understand why a club would use rails and targets that difficult to knock over. Shouldn't be that way. Over time all this does is create the need to replace the targets before their expected lifetime is up. Guess they don't have anything else to spend money on. Since they seem uninterested in resolving the real cause of the problem, get a bigger gun, apparently they think hittin' 'em hard is what it takes.

[six_gun]

I got a pound of lil gun and tried some of it last night. I loaded 15 gr of lil gun with the rcbs sil bullet and a cci std small pistol primer. I had to crimp the 357 cases over the front driving band to get them short enough to cycle. I was not too impressed with the results. I got 1703 avg fps with an extreme spread of 59 fps and a Standard deviation of 25. I didn't shoot for groups because the light was fading fast and I wanted to shoot some over the chrony before the light was all gone.

The was no pressure signs, in fact the cases soot around the very end of the case mouths. I may be able to get 15.5 gr of lil gun into the cases but not much more. I don't think I can get enough lil gun in these cases with this bullet to cause any danger of too much pressure.

Sixgun

[Bodydoc447]

try a magnum primer with L'il Gun and see if the spread narrows a little. I have had good luck with it in other cartridges. A hotter primer helps, at least in my limited experience.

Doc

[Junior1942]

I got a pound of lil gun and tried some of it last night. I loaded 15 gr of lil gun with the rcbs sil bullet and a cci std small pistol primer. I had to crimp the 357 cases over the front driving band to get them short enough to cycle.
What rifle were you using?

[six_gun]

Junior

The rifle is a Rossi 92 carbine in 357 mag. The bullet is a rcbs 357-180-sil. It weighes in at 192 with my alloy, lube and check.

sixgun

[Poorboy]

six gun

Like Waksupi said go slower and then I would try softer alloy at the lower speed. I am one that belives in dwell time. I shoot the 100 meter courses in Alabama. A 38 spl. RN standard vel. from a 6" S&W takes our rams down with no problems. I did get a 24 inch Marlin 30-30 to use in Nashville for the 200 meter course later this year.
Good luck

Poorboy

[six_gun]

I will give the dwell time theory a try. I have a load using AA9 that gives good accuracy with the same rcbs-180-sil bullet that goes about 1450 fps using AA9. It surly is worth a try.

I have used the 60 gr sss from aguila on NRA Hunter Pistol Rams with good results. It rings some but it works fine and the dwell time is why.

Thanks,
Sixgun

[w30wcf]

I once thought that a longer dwell time would down steel targets better until practical experience on 500 meter steel rams with cast bullets did not prove the theory out.

In addition, about 20 years ago there was some ballistic research done using a steel "bob" on a ballistic pendulum. The faster the bullet went, the more the "bob" moved. Also, it did not seem to matter what the bullet was made from (cast, jacketed) . If the bullet weighed the same, was the same caliber and hit with the same velocity, the "bob" movement was the same.

It's too bad that the Rossi doesn't have the faster twist that the Marlin and Winchester do. The Marlin's / Winchester's will stabilize the RCBS 200 gr. (212 gr. in w.w.+2% tin) and that extra 10% bullet weight will make a difference.

Six_Gun,
The reason that the 60 gr. bullet works better on those NRA rams is because of the 50% additional weight over the 40 gr. bullet. While it's true that there is a longer dwell time due to the length of the bullet, that additional bullet weight is doing the job.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Marlin Junky]

To those of you casting with RCBS-35-180-SIL:

What diameter bullet does your mold cast with clip-on wheel weight metal?

MJ

[dubber123]

To those of you casting with RCBS-35-180-SIL:

What diameter bullet does your mold cast with clip-on wheel weight metal?

MJ

I think mine just makes .358" if I recall. It may be a touch more, but not .359" for sure.

[bobthenailer]

if you want to single load your ammo i would use the rcbs 200 grgc fn bullet , it takes up less powder space than the normaly seated 180 gr bullets, because more of the bullet is outside the case and it is probly the most accurate 358 dia bullet around , ive used thousands in single shot 357 mags for sillewet , i also have the saeco 180gr #396, #354 and the gb 180grgc fn , i would also use lil gun for top velocties if it shoots well in your gun , it does for me!

[JSH]

.359+

[Marlin Junky]

dubber123,

That's not good. I'll try my new one out in a few days. I Noticed it came with quite a few metal chips from the machining process. I hope that's not a clue that the tooling is wearing out.

I'd like to hear about other's 35-180-SIL molds because if mine turns out to cast under .3585", I'm going to call RCBS to ask for a replacement.

MJ

[Ramslammer]

G'Day Sixgun
Down hear in Australia some of the blokes are using the RCBS-357- 180-Sil for Cowboy as well. What most of them have done is shorten the cases they use with this bullet so it crimps in the groove and will still cycle. Simple solution!
Juddy