44 pistol surprize

[starmac]

My wife came in while ago and handed me a pistol she had picked up.

I have had muzzle loaders for years, but never got into the pistols, so I am not 100% sure what I've got.
This thing is a F.ILLIPIETTA, made in italy, marked on one side of the octagon barrel also has a diamond with fap in it.
The other side of the barrel just has black powder only and 44 cal.
towards the front of the cylinder it says engagec 16 1843
The cylinder is engraver and on the side of it it says engraved by W.I. Ormsby New York.
The rear sites is a notch in the hammer.
It has a color case hardened frame and hammer, a brass grip frame, octagon barrel and pretty nice wood grips.

Does anybody know anything about what I have here. Do I have a potential shooter, and have to learn a new hobby, or is it just mainly a looker? lol
It did come with a few balls, caps , felt wads, and powder.

[rodwha]

Can you provide a pic?

It could be a .44 cal version of a Colt Navy. The date throws me off.

It's a shooter.

[starmac]

No saavy pics.
What would be a good all around powder charge, you know for grizzly protection and such. lol

[Cosmiceyes]

The Model 1848 Percussion Army Revolver is a .44 caliber revolver designed by Samuel Colt for the U.S. Army's Mounted Rifles, also known as "Dragoons". This revolver was designed as a solution to problems encountered with the Walker Colt. Although it was introduced after the Mexican-American War, it became popular among civilians during the 1850s and '60s, and was also used during the American Civil War.
76233

[DougGuy]

A good all around powder charge? Ohh about 24gr of H110 in a .45 Colt case under a 300gr boolit. That BP .44 ain't no match for a grizzly.

[rodwha]

Grizzly would be a bit too much for that, especially since yours are meaner and bigger.

But there's a historical account of the army having several men shooting a grizzly with their .36 cal pistols and doing nothing to it until an officer arrived with his .44 (I think it likely what's now called a Dragoon-1848) and killed it with 2 shots.

Is it a brass framed gun or steel? Brass needs a reduced load (no more than 25 grns) to last a while. But a steel framed gun can take about 40 grns or so.

Round balls are what it'll likely do better with, but there are a few conicals that may work for you.

Swiss or Olde Eynsford black powder or Triple 7 will give you more horsepower also.

[starmac]

AWE man, you just ruined my day DougGuy. lol I found a guy on google that says the engaged 16 may 1843 is the date of the depicted sea battle scene engraved on the cylinder. They were talking about a cva pistol, but claims the octagon barrel model is a repro 1851 navy model.

[rodwha]

If the barrel is octagon it's likely a Colt Navy reproduction, but they only came in .36 cal (known as caliber Navy, and .44 being caliber Army).

Even 44 mag's and 454 Casull's I hear aren't very good as bear medicine.

A 255 grn bullet pushed by 25 grns of 3F Triple 7 gave a Ruger Old Army 920 fps and 479 ft/lbs of energy. A Ruger is stout and doesn't need to have a Triple 7 charge reduced, and so could do more.

I use a 240 grn bullet with 35 grns of said powder and it feels like a mild 44 mag. It's likely got about 550 ft/lbs +/- 25.

[rodwha]

The CVA pistol is likely a rebranded Pietta.

That same 255 grn bullet pushed by 30 grns of 3F Goex only produced 744 fps and 314 ft/lbs.

[starmac]

LMAO I was kidding about the bear medicine. lol I found pictures on the net, and it is a replica of the 1851 navy, except it is 44 cal, instead of 36.

I think I will have to do some playing with this thing. And no I won't be shooting any grizzlies with it, Hopefully. lol

[rodwha]

Most people seem to get their best groups using reduced loads (18-25 grns) and a ball. You may need to use filler so as the ball is seated on the charge, and many claim it best to fill it up 'til the ball sits just under the edge of the chamber so s there isn't much jump to the forcing cone. Your chamber holds 40-45 grns plus a bare ball.

Pietta states to use a .451" ball, but many claim better accuracy with .454 or .457" balls.

[starmac]

Thanks for that info rodwha.

[Battis]

Octagonal barrel, hinged loading lever (as opposed to creeping), .44 caliber...historically wrong but a good shooter. I'd use .454 roundballs (pure lead) - the .451 might be too small, .457 will put too much pressure on the loading lever. I'd use 30 grs of FFFG with Bore Butter or Crisco over the balls in the chambers. You can use a filler to raise the ball - I used to, but saw no advantage. Seat the ball on the powder so there's no air space. Piettas are good guns. The date code will be two capital letters on the frame, or if it's old, Roman numerals.
http://www.gun-data.com/italiandatecodes2_arms.html

[starmac]

It has a ch in a rectangle on the frame. Thanks

[starmac]

One source I found puts the ch code as a 2011 model, maybe that is why it is in such nice shape. The guy my wife got it from, said he had picked up an actual colt in the correct 36 cal was why he was letting this one go.

[Battis]

Yeah, that chart I listed only goes to 2000. They're good shooters but they can be tricky. Lots of components to learn about - caps, balls, powder, nipples, wedge, filler (or not), felt over-powder wads (or not), over-ball grease of some sort... Great hobby.

[DougGuy]

Heh I apologize! Those things are fun to shoot man, I will give them that. The last one I shot was a .44 and we were shooting exploding targets with it about 40' or so, when one of the balls I shot hit the hardwood backstop and rolled back up and tapped me in the big toe..

[rodwha]

Mike Beliveau ran some Old Army's through testing and got 1062 fps and 371 ft/lbs with 33 grns of 3F Triple 7. I don't reduce my charge and can get 45 grns behind that ball. I doubt it would bounce off!

Even with a ball it has some recoil!

It's a lot of fun, and often brings attention. People want to know what in the hell is rattling their teeth!

[starmac]

It seems like I have read about the frames stretching with full loads, is that only a problem with the bras framed ones. For my use (fun) I don't see a need for hot loads.

[Battis]

You gotta be careful with brass frames- keep the loads lower. With the steel framed Pietta .44, I find 30 - 35 grs FFFG to be accurate and fun to shoot. The Dragoons can handle more powder, and the Walkers can take up to 60 grs FFFG. Triple 7 is hotter and they say to reduce the charge by 15% (I've never used it).

[gandydancer]

try about 25 grains of 3 F and a 451 round ball if you get a ring of lead when you seat the ball. its big enough.use a Popsicle stick and fill the cylinders over the balls with salt free Crisco and blast away,

[starmac]

This came with some felt like wads soaked in something like bore butter, does some use them under the ball??

[gandydancer]

you can. some do. I don't. it will contaminate your powder some what.

[rodwha]

I bought a roll of felt and a punch, and made Gatofeo's infamous lube, which is supposed to be a very old formula, except that paraffin wax is made by Gulf. If you make your own it really reduces the cost.

But I've not seen the need for them as my Ruger Old Army just doesn't get locked up, especially since I've been using Triple 7, which isn't anything like the Pyrodex I had been using.

Any lube over the balls is likely to make a mess.

I don't have a replica pistol yet, and they may be more in need of lube, though I think Triple 7 may negate the need for it.

[Cosmiceyes]

LMAO I was kidding about the bear medicine. lol I found pictures on the net, and it is a replica of the 1851 navy, except it is 44 cal, instead of 36.

I think I will have to do some playing with this thing. And no I won't be shooting any grizzlies with it, Hopefully. lol

As I posted before to your listing of description it is a Model 1848 Percussion Army Revolver. A replica of course.What kind of barrel is up to the replicator!
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[Battis]

A pic would be the best way to determine what it is. If it looks like an 1851 Colt Navy, with the octagonal barrel, but it is in .44 caliber, then it is a Pietta fantasy gun that never existed. If it has the round barrel, then it might be a Dragoon .44 replica. I don't think Pietta made a Dragoon replica.

[rodwha]

Cosmiceyes: Isn't your barrel round? I've not seen a Dragoon with an octagon barrel.
Who made yours?
Is that an additional sight along the top? I see it doesn't have the screw for a stock though.

[starmac]

It is an 1851 reolica, except pietta built some in 44, there were no 44 originals from what I have seen.
There are no balls in town to fit it. Sportsmans have some that just says 44 caliber on the box (hornady) so I bought a box, but they are way too small.

[rodwha]

I'm a bit curious as to what size ball they sold you. Your's should ask for a .451" ball (known as .44).

[rodwha]

Do you know the length of your barrel? Is it the typical 8" or the 5.5"? They also make a shorter barreled version with a birds head grip. Love that grip!

[Cosmiceyes]

Cosmiceyes: Isn't your barrel round? I've not seen a Dragoon with an octagon barrel.
Who made yours?
Is that an additional sight along the top? I see it doesn't have the screw for a stock though.
That is a actual 1848 from the Colt museum.I did find the history I posted from Colt that even Cimmaron utilized as a sales point.It does have a round bbl. If you go to Cimmaron firearms they have a remake of the Baby Dragon in .31 cal with multi-sided bbl. I took from the original description he gave he found the number 1848,and made in Italia! Their license to design,and manufacture was I'm sure romantic!

[starmac]

The date was 16 may 1843, and that is the date of the sea battle engraved on the cylinder. It is an octagon barrel.

[Battis]

The .451 round balls might work but they might be too small for some guns. I use the .454s.

[45 Bravo]

Man, the responses to the original post is all over the place, from 1851's to Walkers, to Dragoons, all the way to a 37mm Hotchkiss.

It has been said on here before, but to put it in a nutshell, steel framed .44 made by Pietta, 1851 flavor.
About 25 grains (by volume) of your favorite black powder, or 3f substitute.

I happen to like the lubed felt wads, (I make them using a sharpened .45 colt or .45 acp case as a hole punch, the ones I make are stiffer than the store bought ones.)
The wads go under the ball.
Being a Pietta it SHOULD use a .451 round ball, but a .454 can be used too.

Now onto caps.
Some people swear by #10's on their pistols.
It depends on what size your nipples are, (laugh all you want).
But, some guns say use a #10, on all of my guns, the #10 caps are just a little too small for the nipples, and it takes 2 hammer strikes to fire them. (some people seat them with a stick or probe, but I prefer not to do that.)
I always use #11's, they are the same size as for my rifle, and if my revolver nipples are a little smaller, I just squeeze them into a slight oval, then put them on.

Other than making sure there is no airspace between the powder and ball, that's about it.

Load her up and pull the trigger..

45 Bravo

[Battis]

Man, the responses to the original post is all over the place
Naw, not really. It's called a conversation. I did remove the pic of the Gatling gun. Interesting but not relevant, I guess.
As far as caps, here's an interesting tidbit from from an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

[starmac]

45 Bravo, the cap info is exactly what the guy my wife bought it from told her. He sent some 10's, but said it was better to use 11's, as the 10's fit too tight.

[45 Bravo]

It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

And that is why I have been a cap squeezer for over 35 years..

I would be interested in reading that pamphlet, can you please post or send me a link to it?

thanks.

45 Bravo

[45 Bravo]

Cool Starmac glad to confirm what others have said, So, when are you planning on shooting this thing?

If you have a problem finding #11's (most places online are sold out at the moment) you can use the 10's just don't be surprised or disappointed if you have to drop the hammer on a chamber more than once.

Let us know when you do, and what you think.
Photos of the grin on your face too when you finish!

You might want to research on the cleaning of these things too.
But that is another thread all together....

Keep us posted..

45 Bravo

[Battis]

It's a pamphlet that came with the 3rd Generation Colts (I think). On the 2nd page, under BLACK POWDER IS BEST, it talks about different powders and caps (if you can see it). You might find one on ebay.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/Coltcaps2_zpsa18318d0.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/Coltcaps2_zpsa18318d0.jpg.html)
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/Coltcaps3_zps1920742c.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/Coltcaps3_zps1920742c.jpg.html)

[45 Bravo]

I did remove the pic of the Gatling gun. Interesting but not relevant

Oh noo!!!
Gatling guns are ALWAYS RELEVANT!

Especially. 37mm hand cranked monster!

[45 Bravo]

Thanks for the photos battis..

[starmac]

45 bravo, #11 caps are not a problem, I know which drawer they are in. lol
I haven't got a chance to go shoot it yet though.
it came with a handfull of balls, but I need to get some ordered, as I doubt they will last the first outing. lol