FMJ after Lead - Bad?

[blade]

Hey guys,
I have been told many times that you should never put FMJ after Lead. I have been told that you have to clean the barrel out before using an FMJ.

What does FMJ do to the lead in the barrel that is so bad?

Just trying to remember why I was told.. been a long time ago.


Thanks,
B

[jmort]

Lead fouling can cause eventful pressure spike with jacketed bullets.

[DougGuy]

What happens, is the j word boolit doesn't "scrape" the lead out of the barrel, it compresses it into the grooves, so say you have .002" of leading and you fire a hefty load of powder behind a j word into a barrel that is now undersize because of leading, it will eventually bulge the barrel or worse. You are firing into an obstructed barrel.

[nanuk]

yet many advocate fireing a Jword to remove leading....

I fail to see how a Jword with an enclosed nose would react any different to one with a Softnose.

and the OP says nothing about "Leading" only shooting Jwords after shooting Boolits


so... is there any real danger? or just we "Think" there is?

[jmort]

"...and the OP says nothing about "Leading"..."

Yes he did

"What does FMJ do to the lead in the barrel that is so bad?"

[DougGuy]

Is there a danger in a barrel obstruction? I would think a very real danger. And as jmortimer put it, could be a dangerous pressure event as well. An old gunsmith laughed his BUTT off when I told him about shooting j behind lead, he says "You guys KEEP me in business with stupid stuff like that!" And then he kindly took the time to explain how leading reduces the bore diameter and obstructs the bore somewhat, and then explained how my 22.5gr load of 296 would eventually bulge the barrel if I kept it up, and if it was bad enough, it could blow up an old gun that wasn't as strong as the Ruger I was shooting.

[waksupi]

We have spent some years here debunking old wives tales about cast boolits. One that needs laid to rest, is the practice of shooting jacketed bullets to remove leading. It is a fine process, if you don't mind running the risk of ruining a barrel, possibly in spectacular fashion. Much better to develop a proper load that does not lead, and suffer through the scrubbing that comes from the learning process, until that load is achieved.

[Nickle]

We have spent some years here debunking old wives tales about cast boolits. One that needs laid to rest, is the practice of shooting jacketed bullets to remove leading. It is a fine process, if you don't mind running the risk of ruining a barrel, possibly in spectacular fashion. Much better to develop a proper load that does not lead, and suffer through the scrubbing that comes from the learning process, until that load is achieved.

Very good comment, and one definitely worth repeating.

Old myths die hard.

Some folks have a bad case of wishful thinking and hope an old hokey myth will jyst go against common sense and logic and magically fix their problems.

Other folks have a tendency of trying "to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", and will weedle and whine, and ask some pretty dumb things that they wish were true but aren't.

[quasi]

does anyone have any examples, or is this a new myth?

[nanuk]

a google search will find you much conflicting data on this, but so far I haven't read any one state they did indeed ruin a barrel.... but that doesn't mean no one has.

Perhaps someone on here has first hand experience?


Here is some interesting reading from someone often referred to on Castboolits as an expert:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

to wit:
"One solution that gets recommended is to fire a couple of rounds of jacketed ammo to clean up majority of leading deposits -- in my experience jacketed ammo tends to remove most, but not necessarily all of the lead (it seems to iron some of it into the grooves since jacketed bullets tend to be slightly undersized). Some have even gone so far as to suggest loading jacketed bullet upside-down to enhance the scraping effect -- I've never done this, but it seems rather odd to me, all you need is the harder jacket metal in contact with the leaded bore so what purpose does loading the bullet upside-down accomplish? And if the jacketed bullet is undersized it won't make any difference whether it's right side up or upside-down. The best solution I've found yet, is to simply shoot some GC ammo through the leaded bore. The sharp forward edge of a GC seems to do a much better job of removing lead deposits than a typical bullet jacket, and I can't think of a better way to clean a gun than to keep shootin'!"


What I read into this, is shooting a regular jacketed bullet, seated normally, if the proper size or slightly oversize will indeed clear out lead... Because Fryxell states: "all you need is the harder jacket metal in contact with the leaded bore"

So....
we indeed do have a situation where some Myths have never been recinded.

Or have we concluded Fryxell is wrong?

[mroliver77]

I never tried the jacketed thing. I do not believe it would be dangerous as Ackley fired many bullets .050 over bore diameter with little effect. I have shot many .311 7.62X39 bullets out of my .308 bore gun with nothing out of the ordinary. We advise guys to shoot "the biggest boolit that will chamber" and think little of it.
Having said this I still agree with ric to find a load that works right. I had some store bought lead boolits that leaded. If I shot my boolits it cleaned barrel right out. So we shot one of mine per cylinder full until these junkers were used up.
When experimenting and getting lead the "chore boy" still works great for me! I've seen guys say they scrubbed and scrubbed with a CB. I have never had to go more than a few strokes.
J

[krallstar]

What about shooting some gas checked boolits after shooting plain base lead bullets. Would they scrape or iron the lead.

[nanuk]

What about shooting some gas checked boolits after shooting plain base lead bullets. Would they scrape or iron the lead.

see my post of Fryxell's comments on GC boolits

[selmerfan]

This may be a thread hijack, but I'll toss it out there. What about a good boolit load, sized to barrel, quality lube, lead "wash" in the barrel is the worst fouling and then switching to jacketed within the same shooting session without cleaning the bore? Any pitfalls here?

[fatelk]

I can't think of any problems shooting jacketed bullets out of a slightly lead-fouled bore, but the other way around- shooting lead boolits in a slightly copper-fouled bore- seems to greatly increase the chance of lead fouling, in my experience.

As far as "shooting out the leading" with jacketed bullets, I used to do that in my younger, dumber days. I really don't recall if it was truly effective or I just thought it was, but I never had anything blow up. Nowadays I just load them so they don't lead in the first place, and clean it right if I have a load that does lead. I would not like the idea of shooting a hot round through a lead-constricted bore; doesn't sound good to me.

One thing I have done that is very much along the same lines and was actually effective: years ago I bought a bunch of oddball .30 cal plastic bullets. They were some kind of pulled military surplus training bullets, basically just a long copper gas check containing a short orange plastic tip. They weighed something like 13 grains. I would load them with a few grains of fast pistol powder in various .30 cals, very low pressure load. They made a pretty good pop and shot well at close range.

A friend had a Winchester 30-30 with a seriously leaded bore, due to someone shooting undersized, non-gas check lead bullets. A few rounds of those training loads and that barrel was as clean as a new one.

[MarkP]

I never tried the jacketed thing. I do not believe it would be dangerous as Ackley fired many bullets .050 over bore diameter with little effect. I have shot many .311 7.62X39 bullets out of my .308 bore gun with nothing out of the ordinary. We advise guys to shoot "the biggest boolit that will chamber" and think little of it.
Having said this I still agree with ric to find a load that works right. I had some store bought lead boolits that leaded. If I shot my boolits it cleaned barrel right out. So we shot one of mine per cylinder full until these junkers were used up.
When experimenting and getting lead the "chore boy" still works great for me! I've seen guys say they scrubbed and scrubbed with a CB. I have never had to go more than a few strokes.
J

I worked in the ammo industry 15+ yrs ago; I grabbed some reject ammo ( cosmetic flaws; dents on shoulder primers, ect --- free to employees) in 270 Win 140 gr; they looked to have a heavy crimp and chambered somewhat tight. I touched the first one off. I am glad I had a REM 700 head swelled gas escaped just had powder burns and bits particles on top of my head. Turns out they were accidentally loaded with 139 gr 7mm bullets rather than 140 gr .277 bullets (.277 vs .284") huge difference in pressure.
Also saw a 308 Win fired in a 25-06 Rem pressure bbl; it blew the breach block off the Universal receiver, blew out the lamps on the ceiling and the chronograph lamps as well. This setup will take proof loads all day long at 84K.

[nanuk]

MarkP, You are not comparing apples to apples

it sounds like your 270/7mm hybrid was too tight in the chamber neck so as to not allow bullet release.

When Ackley did his experiments, he reamed the chamber necks to allow bullet release.

as for a 308 in a 25-06, the 308 would act as a stopper.

now, ream that 25-06 neck out to .342, give the leade a gentle angle, and toss in a 30-06, and see what happens.
My guess, nothing too exciting

[MarkP]

I realize not exactly apples to apples but it did chamber, I certainly would not purposely try this because Ackley was able to get away with it.

There is a huge area ratio between .257" & .308" I am fairly certain this would still ruin the transducer and take the UR breech block apart.

[300savage]

The best way to get the lead out is called bronze steel wool. wrap some of that around a bore brush and give it heck for a minute or two, run a patch through it and see how it looks to ya.
The bronze eats lead like candy, but won't harm steel at all.

[Larry Gibson]

Not throw water on someone's "myth" but I have shot jacketed after cast bullets in several rifles of various cartridges. Now this was done usually after extensive cast bullet testing the said rifle, usually 50+ test shots or more. Have to admit that there was no appreciable leading to speak of as I prefer not to lead barrels rather than trying to get the lead out of barrels.

Anyways the purpose for shooting the jacketed rounds (most often a standard SAAMI 10 shot string) was not to get the lead out but to measure any significant difference in psi and/or velocity. I was using the Oehler M43 to measure the psi (it gives a time pressure trace plus other relative data) and velocity. In every instance the 1st shot of jacketed through the cast fouled bore produced a psi that was below the mean average for the test string and a velocity that was above the mean average. Most often the 2nd and 3rd shots were also below the mean psi average with the velocities settling out close to the mean velocity. None of the mean averages, standard deviations or extreme spreads for psi or velocity were outside the normal test string to test string variation. Would seem that the lube, being a lube, residue and any leading (lead is also a lube used in machining) acted as a lube and slightly reduced the bullet to barrel friction increasing velocity and lowering the psi. Only after 3 - 4 shots did the rest of the test shots measure in normal random fashion. There was no indication what so ever of any damage to the barrel or action.

Caveat; I did not test with moderate or severe leading in the barrels so I won't go there with an opinion as I've no test data on that. Perhaps if "someone" would care to donate a rifle with a moderately or heavily leaded barrel I could test that?

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

I've been reading about this argument since I was 16 or so and so far I don't think that anyone has been proven right or wrong yet, but I've seen no evidence of catastrophic failure or damage from the practice.

My own experience with handguns is this:

During my LE career in the 70s and 80s, we shot about a 100 rounds per officer of 38 Special, 9mm, 357 Magnum or 41 Magnum quarterly on the police range. The 100 to 120 quarterly training/qualification rounds were generally cast (from a custom loader) or swaged (factory ammo). Some of those loads leaded depending on the officer's revolver or pistol. Following the training/qualification, and without cleaning, we then fired the previous quarter's full power jacketed loads to familiarize with the recoil and report of full power duty ammo and to get rid of the ammo that had been in our revolvers and in our ammo pouches before getting issued new ammo for the next three months.

Now in all those years, I never noted an issue in doing this and in fact when promoted to the firearms training officer position I continued the practice without fear of any mishap; indeed, I never gave it any thought until reading this thread. This practice took place thousands of times for individual officers in my presence with probably well over a hundred thousand rounds fired and not one revolver was damaged or needed repair. The department armorer (a very competent factory trained individual) inspected each officer's weapon annually without noting anything unusual other than an occasional out of time cylinder and worn forcing cones from magnum ammunition. His major and annual complaint was that some officers just never bothered to clean their weapons. Not an unusual complaint thinks I!

I might add that my S&W service revolver was often used in the service pistol class of the PPC course of fire. After years of shooting jacketed after lead in training or fun, it would still hold the 10 ring of the B-27 target at 50 yards from the prone and sitting positions and often from the strong hand barricade position.

When I was at the Federal Law Enforcement Academy for a four month course and using a Colt revolver, we often switched from Federal 38 Special 148gr HBWCs to the 110 grain +P+ 38 Special JHP load depending on the course of fire and no issues ever cropped up during the training and that was with about 250 rounds a week times 40 some officers fired throughout the course.

Had there ever been a problem at my department or at the academies that I attended, you can bet the practice would have been discontinued long before I ever showed up.

Conclusion: While not a scientific test compared to the post above, the sheer number of officers over two decades and the number of jacketed rounds fired following lead projectiles should be a clue. Police departments and academies are pretty good at reporting and sharing training issues via POST and the FBI and in my career I never saw a bulletin addressing the issue either positively or negatively and thus I can only assume that this was just not an issue.

[sparkz]

In my mind (Or whats left after the 60s and 70s) it seems a Jacketed would Squeeze down or Iron that fouling into place but good at thousands of pounds of squeeze, making it a nightmare to clean,,, I have known guys who say it is the thing to do, But I have always cleaned my gun when dirty in anyway,

But I can see how a Gas Check might "Plow" lead far better then a Jacket
But at end of the day Just Clean like the rest of the gun Manufactures would instruct you to and be done with the mess

Patrick