Brand new lever rifleman here!

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Hi guys my name is Roger and I’m an addict!! (This is the point where you all respond “hello Roger”) About six months ago, at the ripe old age of 50-Something I acquired my first ever lever. Since that time I’ve added about one a month. All my Black Guns are gone, most of the Bolt Guns are gone and I spend every waking hour skulking about Pawn Shops looking to score a new fix. I hope I never recover. But I digress.

For those of you who were intelligent enough to start shooting lever guns before your eyes were going bad, arthritis onset, and prostate aging hadn’t reduced your bladder capacity to that of a gnat, I have some questions. Most of my queries have been dispatched by reading old threads but I still have a few specific questions.

1) I assume all commercially loaded ammunition is safe to load in a tube magazine ( just seems intuitive to me) and some of the stuff, Remington Core-Lokt appears closer to Round Nose than Flat Point. Why is there so much apprehension about loading round nose cast boolits in tube magazines? When did blunt become flat to hand loaders of cast boolits?

2) Two of my levers are Marlins (30-30 & 35 Rem) w/ that evil micro-gr0ove rifling. Thus far I’m not having any issues pushing velocity well past the arbitrary (?) 1700 fps in my 30-30 with 150 gr boolits properly sized for bore and throat. Is anyone else shooting velocity above 2100? And have you ever experienced the ‘rifling stripping’ off the boolit that’s supposed to occur at higher velocity. It’s counter intuitive given the number groves, but I’m still learning here

Semper Fi,
Now move out and draw fire.............

[pipehand]

Howdy, MasterGunz.

1. Correct

2. Microgroove works well, but it usually needs a larger diameter boolit to work well. I don't have a 35 Rem, but I size my 30-30's at .3105" or greater for the Marlins. In my limited experience with Winchesters, loads that do well in the Marlins may not even chamber due to the tighter Winchester throats and bore dimension.

What some may call stripping may be erosion of the sides of the boolit by powder gases. Generally caused by too small a diameter to seal the grooves.

Marlins have a 1:10" twist, as opposed to the originally specified 1:12. Some believe that it is a limiting factor with cast boolits. A lot of guys shoot at 2100fps, though. Heavier (170 grains+) at 1800fps+ are great deer boolits as well.

I didn't get rid of my black guns, but I do shoot the levers a lot more.

Semper Fi back atcha.


Edited to add- I've been shooting an RCBS 30-150FN that goes 162.5 grains loobed and checked with 21.5 grains of 4198 for circa 1900 fps. Worked well on the one deer I shot with it.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I didn't get rid of my black guns, but I do shoot the levers a lot more.

Semper Fi back atcha.

After 30 years I couldn't get rid of them fast enough. If I never handle another AR platform again I'll not have missed a thing.

[pipehand]

I can understand that after 30 years. I only did 5 years and promised myself I would never sleep on the ground again!

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

promised myself I would never sleep on the ground again!

If it makes you feel any better, I've been sleeping on the couch since I bought an 1886 reproduction in 45-70. Gots tuh have muh fix!!

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Howdy, MasterGunz.

1. Correct

2. Microgroove works well, but it usually needs a larger diameter boolit to work well. I don't have a 35 Rem, but I size my 30-30's at .3105" or greater for the Marlins. In my limited experience with Winchesters, loads that do well in the Marlins may not even chamber due to the tighter Winchester throats and bore dimension.

What some may call stripping may be erosion of the sides of the boolit by powder gases. Generally caused by too small a diameter to seal the grooves.

Marlins have a 1:10" twist, as opposed to the originally specified 1:12. Some believe that it is a limiting factor with cast boolits. A lot of guys shoot at 2100fps, though. Heavier (170 grains+) at 1800fps+ are great deer boolits as well.

I didn't get rid of my black guns, but I do shoot the levers a lot more.

Semper Fi back atcha.


Edited to add- I've been shooting an RCBS 30-150FN that goes 162.5 grains loobed and checked with 21.5 grains of 4198 for circa 1900 fps. Worked well on the one deer I shot with it.

So what's your thinking on loading cast round nose in a tube magazine. I've been looking closely at how they (rimmed cart.) align in the magazine and it sure looks safe to me but the arguments seem split about 60/40 for round nose. I'm still too new at this to make an informed decision

[Cosmiceyes]

Ahoy Sailors, and 1/2 men that can't swim.I hear there is a "opening" at the "men's department" in San Fransisco! Nice thing about "smokers",NAVY 90% of wins!
I am glad to see your enjoyment for a great gun. I have a Browning Mod.92 in .357 mag.and a Win.94AE with 24 inch BBL. in 7-30 Waters.From dead rats to black bear,levers will provide. I wish I could say the same about a 22lr lever,but they just aren't accurate.I want a Marline in .35 Rem,but I am also looking at Savage 99.I carried a Browning lever in .358 Winchester as I wondered about Alaska.It's a great gun,just lacking in the boolit selection dept.I still have 300 plus of the old Speer 180 grain flat point j-boolits I load from the top only in my 357 mag.I then got a SAECO 180 gr Truncated nose gc boolit that doesn't have the magazine tube problem.So I created a load for the 357 Super Mag TC Contender that has 3 inch groups at 200 meters with the j-boolit.If I am out,and traveling about the 357 is with me. I think I need to replace it with a 35 rem.Utah,Idaho,Montana have a way bigger group of critters to eat.
76148

[pipehand]

OK, a bit of history here. Marlin was the first to come out with a levergun that would handle the Government 500 grain 45-70 load----but they specified that it was not to be the round nosed bullet. The military tested the Marlin Model 1881 with the heavy RN, and acted surprised that there was a tube detonation. The Browning designed Win 1886 showed up 5 years later. Current Marlin 1895's are really just a modified 336 action, and restricted to a cartridge length of 2.55, or so just like your 30-30. Your 1886 can take a full length 45-70.

If you think about the recoil/momentum generated by a 500 grain 45/70 as opposed to a 30-30, you can see why the rn 45-70 might have a better chance of detonating in the mag tube. I believe it is Buffalo Bore that makes a heavy 45-70 load using a proprietary small rifle primered case because the meplat of the boolit they use combined with the extra oomph caused a mag tube detonation with the large rifle primered loads.

The 30-30 shouldn't lay nose to primer due to the taper of the case. Also, the 35 Remington was produced with spitzer bullets at one time- the tube mag in the Remington Pump guns were spiralled to keep the bullet noses from contacting the primer. People still used them in Marlins.

The Lyman 311291, a round nosed boolit, was designed for the 30-30. The flat nosed 311041 also. Most reloading sources specify round OR flat nosed jacketed bullets for reloading the 30-30 with a tube mag.

All that said, I think you'll find the majority of lever gunners on this board like a flat meplat boolit for the increase in lethality on game more than the safety in the mag tube issue.

[Mk42gunner]

There are only two commercial loadings in .30-30 and .35 Remington that I would be apprehensive about loading in a tube magazine. The Remington Accelerator in .30-30, and the 150 gr PSP in .35 Remington.

I am not sure Remington even makes either loading anymore, but they may still be on the shelf. I bought two boxes of the .35 Rem 150 PSP when the local liquor store/ bait shop closed, but haven't shot any of them yet.

Robert

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

All that said, I think you'll find the majority of lever gunners on this board like a flat meplat boolit for the increase in lethality on game more than the safety in the mag tube issue.

Thanks pipehand,

At the ranges I can see well enought to shoot these days (I hate glass) bullet shape makes no difference. I'm mainly just curious. It strikes me that this cartridge and platform have been around for well over 100 years and it's still not settled. The consensus among experienced lever riflemen seems to be RN or FN are safe, but a very vocal group continues to argue against the RN in spite of the fact Remington manufactures commercial 30-30 with RN bullets. God I hope the AR/AK debate doesn't last 100 years, fortunately I'll be long gone.

[singleshot]

If you can get the Ranchdog mould for the 35 Rem, I've found no better for the 336 Marlin in 35 Rem. Drops at .360 which is perfect for this rifle. Velocities to 2400 fps are do-able, and 200 meter accuracy for hunting is intuitive.

[Cosmiceyes]

So what's your thinking on loading cast round nose in a tube magazine. I've been looking closely at how they (rimmed cart.) align in the magazine and it sure looks safe to me but the arguments seem split about 60/40 for round nose. I'm still too new at this to make an informed decision

Soft lead rounded or flat simply gives instead of setting off primers.The problem with pointed boolits isn't the lead tip which give during recoil,but the copper jacket that doesn't.It dents the primer,and sets it off.Go to this link as you can buy cast boolits already made,sized,and lubed to your specs.You will see on the boolit page the molds used to make the boolit.Thus you can buy the mold,and make them yourself when you have a favorite. :)'s

http://montanabulletworks.com/home.html

[northmn]

Ihave used both RN in the 30-30 and 35. The Remington Coreloc has been a proven round since they were developed. Never heard of tube detonations but have heard they were excellent bullets. Many folks today tend to want to fill the magazine. Kind of taken as a sign of a green horn by some of the older folks that used these rifles during the depression. That may have something to do with detonations. One in the tube and 2 or 3 in the mag is plenty. Fully loaded magazines also tend to deform noses. Winchester did make the button mag rifles for those that did not care about full magazines. "Also makes the rifle heavier to carry.

DP

[jlchucker]

So what's your thinking on loading cast round nose in a tube magazine. I've been looking closely at how they (rimmed cart.) align in the magazine and it sure looks safe to me but the arguments seem split about 60/40 for round nose. I'm still too new at this to make an informed decision

Long before I started on this website, I had one mold for the 35 Remington--Lyman 358315, which has been around forever and features a tapered round nose. I loaded many a round with boolits from that mold before switching to an RCBS 35-200 flatnose. There was never a problem with those Lyman loads, and back then I was using mid-level load data for Hornady jacketed bullets. The Lyman mold has been around forever, and was probably the go-to mold for Marlin owners before the RCBS number came out. I personally switched to the RCBS boolit because they shot tighter groups in a gun that I had back in the day--not because I was worried about that blunt Lyman roundnose causing safety issues. If you haven't bought any molds yet, you may want to start with the RCBS boolit first if you're worried. But if you've already got a Lyman roundnose, I don't think you will have any problems.

[NVScouter]

All that said, I think you'll find the majority of lever gunners on this board like a flat meplat boolit for the increase in lethality on game more than the safety in the mag tube issue.

After years of Uber pointy bullets i revered to standard varmint bullets and old school exposed lead tip controled expansion bullets for my Jacketed bullets. They are more predictable. Then I was lead astray by cast boolits...........and here I am.

I started looking for higher velocity high BC boolits to compete with my old jacketed bullets performance. I still fight it but after getting my mentality right and wacking stuff with a big flat nose has really opened my eyes! Its hard to unlearn stuff but a lever gun with a heavy boolit and a decent FN will sure make a believer out of you!

[NVScouter]

Part of this is primer size and RN size. The primer is a cup and anvil but if the RN is the size of the primer it may flatten it like when you prime a case. Doesnt go boom, now if the RN is less than say 60% (outhouse guess) you may get into the realm of being able to set it off.


Thanks pipehand,

At the ranges I can see well enought to shoot these days (I hate glass) bullet shape makes no difference. I'm mainly just curious. It strikes me that this cartridge and platform have been around for well over 100 years and it's still not settled. The consensus among experienced lever riflemen seems to be RN or FN are safe, but a very vocal group continues to argue against the RN in spite of the fact Remington manufactures commercial 30-30 with RN bullets. God I hope the AR/AK debate doesn't last 100 years, fortunately I'll be long gone.

[pipehand]

Bill, I can't remember where I saw it, but according to this link, I'm not the only one:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7058866/1

A couple of folks there attribute the reference to Mike Venturino.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+.45+government%3A+Aka+.45-70.-a0241516119

[Duckiller]

Get a Savage 99 with the original rotary magazine and don't worry about boolit shape or micro groves or any of that funny stuff. Just shoot real classy rifles. As long as you can see faily well get Marble tang sights, windage and elevation adjustment. When age realy get to your eyes you can add glass and not interfere with the operation of the gun. Not as many out there and limited calibers but Winchester Model 88 is similar with a one piece stock.

[MT Chambers]

You'll find that cast flat points are most effective in leverguns on game, esp. big game that could fight back.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

You'll find that cast flat points are most effective in leverguns on game, esp. big game that could fight back.

You're preaching to the choir. I have no compunction whatsoever about using flat tip bullets. I just found the paradigm curious when factory loaded Remington CoreLokt 30-30 has a round nose and by all accounts is safe and sane to use in a tube magazine.

[helice]

You are not the only addict in this crowd Roger. Welcome to the crowd.
One of the things you will discover with the flat nosed cast boolits is that you really don't need 2200-2300 ft seconds velocity to get the job done. The Ranch Dog at 1800'/s is very efficient, so is the LBT LWN. My 30-30 is a trapper and I'm very happy with 1800 foot seconds.

[w30wcf]

Here is the reason that round nosed bullets in the .30-30 are plenty safe in a tubular magazine.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/magazinefeed30-30.jpg

"Microgroove works well, but it usually needs a larger diameter boolit to work well." I have read that from several other sources but haven't found that to be the case at all....at least with 3 different micro-grooved .30-30's. The fact is that micro-groove has more grip on the bullet than the traditional 6 groove barrel. I have found that bullets sized just .001" over groove diameter shoot very well in mg barrels, even at 2,400 f.p.s. :D

w30wcf

[DaveCampbell]

FWIW, here's my two pennies: Regarding boolits in tubular magazines, if the meplat of the boolit is larger than the primer diameter, it's safe to shoot in a tubular magazine. If it rests on the primer solely, I won't use it.

Now having said that, I'll make a confession. Recently I was testing a very powerful lever action and without thinking grabbed some factory .500 S&W Magnum ammo off my ammo shelf. It was loaded with the Barnes 325-grain DPS bullet. It has a very nice hollow point, much smaller in diameter than the primer. Merily I loaded five rounds and settled into the benchrest. This load was so hot that it opened the lever slightly and the case set back into the action about a quarter of an inch before seizing. I had to use a piece of glued-up leather to tap the lever open and remove the case. I immediately ceased this portion of the test because the primer was severley cratered. Then I jacked the remaining four cartridges from the magazine and realized that the fingers of my left hand could very well have been particles of smog drifting into the Bighorn Mountains right now. Once again, the Lord was looking after a fool.

My point is: It isn't worth it to have a meplat resting on a primer in any tubular-magazined rifle.

---------------------------------------------

A pen in the hand of this president is more dangerous that 80 million American gun owners.

[pipehand]

Makes sense Bill. Do you know when they started using the true "Boxer" primers and reloadable cases?

[26Charlie]

Guns- can't go wrong with a lever gun or a few dozen of them. Trained with the M1 back in '59, then with the improved model with twenty round magazine (M14). Never got to play with the mouse guns.
Apropos this discussion:
The only magazine detonation I remember reading about involved hard-cast RNs in a .44 Mag, IIRC, Linotype alloy.
Since you can shoot one shot and stuff another in the magazine immediately, a lever gun like a Winchester or Marlin with a pocket full of loose rounds makes plenty of sense.
26Charlie.

[searcher4851]

Welcome to the forum. There really is something addictive about leverguns. I didn't even realize it until I happened upon my tenth. It's been all down hill from there. One of the good things about them is you sure can fit a lot of them in a safe. (about the only guns I've owned that can meet or exceed listed safe capacities)