.50 cal FFFg loads up to 160grs ?

[Greebe]

I was looking to find a load for my .50cal Hawkins that I haven't shot in over ten years. I couldn't remember what I had used in the past so I pulled out my old second addition of the Black Powder Guide by George Nonte, Jr. to see what is suggested.

For PRB it gave loads in 10 grain increments from 50 up to 160 grains of FFFg. Yep that is right, I said up to 160 of FFFg. That seems mighty high to me. Then he list loads for a 370 gr Lyman 504617 Maxi with loads of FFFg from 45-90 in 5 grain increments.

So where should I start with my .50 Cal Investarms Hawkins using a patched round ball and Pyrodex P powder? What size round ball do these use?

Thanks,
Greebe

[fouronesix]

I'd start with about 50 gr of FF real blackpowder and work up. Most of my 50s end up liking about 70-75 gr of BP under a patched roundball. I haven't used Pyro since 1977.

[johnson1942]

fouronesix is right. their is some thing else to consider also. if yours is a faster twist 1/48 then around 70 grains is best, if it is around 1/72 you can go to 100 with good results. then their is your gun, find out what it likes.

[Guido4198]

I'm going to jump in here behind Greebe with pretty much the same advice and observations. For hunting with a PRB, I use 90 gns of black, 2f or 3f. If I want to use a big maxi-ball, 370 gns or so, 80-90 is about right. I've never used Pyrodex-P, and can't provide any direct information about it. I did try some Pyrodex of some kind or other waaaayyyyy back in time (like the 1970's)...but never again.
It will help if you to determine the twist in that barrel. If it's 1:48 or faster...you might see better results with the big maxi-balls. If it's a slower "roundball twist"...like 1:60 or so...PRB's will be the way to go. Start with a .490 ball and 50-60 gns of powder and shoot 25 yds until you're hitting silver dollar sized bullseyes pretty consistently. Patch thickness plays a BIG part in your success with a PRB. .015 isn't a bad place to start. For Match shooting, I use a Green Mountain "roundball" barrel, .018 patch, .500 ball. It's too tight to load easily, but gives "one-ragged-hole" groups off sandbags pretty consistently if I manage the fouling just right.
Hope this helps.

[rodwha]

My Lyman's Deerstalker is made by Investarms, and it gives a max load for a .50 cal as 110 grns for 2F and 90 grns for 3F with a PRB, and less 10 grns for a conical. A light bullet can use the higher max load.

Pyrodex P is the same as 3F BP.

A .490" RB is likely easier to use as it gives more options for patch thickness. But the tighter the fit likely the more accurate it may be.

I'm still breaking in my rifle (~200 shots) and I've been using Pyrodex P and RS that my father gave me with my pistol to do so, and without seeking accuracy I've had groups as small as 1.5" at 50 yds using 70 grns of powder, a 0.015" patch, .490" RB, and grape seed oil for lube. And I swab between 3-5 shots. This rifle has a 1:48" twist.

160 grns sounds quite extreme, but if the barrel is larger than 15/16" across the flats (which is what mine is) maybe it can handle stout powder charges.

[Greebe]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I was thinking of using Pyrodex P (FFFg equivalent) is that it is all I have on the powder shelf right now and I do not have the money to buy more at the moment. I would probably prefer real blackpowder, but in times of low fundage use what you have is my motto.

I believe the barrel is a 1:48 twist. All I shot out of it in the past was PRB and it seemed to work fine from what I remember. I do not have a mould for either round ball or maxi at this point so that is a consideration for sure. The maxi I am sure would be better for hunting as well. I have made bullet moulds in the past, and probably could make a maxi style mould.

I probably could swing a Lee mould as they are only $20. They have a combo which is kind of what seems like the best buy. It has a .490 round ball and a R.E.A.L. bullet that weights 320 gr. Then they have a dual cavity REAL that is 320gr and a 250 gr mould. How would these work?

Thanks,
Greebe

[Texantothecore]

I normally shoot 70 grns and it is accurate as well comfortable. You can shoot all day without any problems. 110 grns hurt my shoulder so badly that I couldn't shoot for 3 months, be careful.

[mooman76]

I agree with what other have said here. I might add though that much over 100gr will just be a waist of good powder. Black powder and the subs get real inefficient with real heavy loads so at a certain point you have little to gain. Also if you have a 1/48 twist which is a little fast for heavy loads with a RB and at a certain point your accuracy will drop off quick do to stripping. That's the point where your RB or conical no longer follows the rifling. Only shooting will tell and the heavier the loads you use, the tighter fit you will need with a patched RB. I would start at 50gr and work up in 5gr increments. You may find that 50 gr work fine for just target shooting or plinking and heavier loads for hunting.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

Hi Greebe,

I shoot a TC Hawken with 1/48 twist and my best accuracy is with a 370 grain Lyman Maxi-Ball on top of 90 grains fffg BP and a .125 lubed wad. The 320 grain REAL shoots poorly from my rifle. Matter of fact, if you want to try the REAL mould you can have it, send me a PM with your address and I'll mail it to you.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

One other thing: It has been scientifically proven that fouronesix is the smartest guy in the forum.

[OverMax]

160-3FFF WOW!! that a lot of Black for a 50 cal. Even for an inline. I don't see how its do-able in a side hammer. Do the B/P rifle manufacturers proof test their barrels with a charge that big?

O/M

[rodwha]

When I first became interested in a muzzleloader I looked at it from a modern perspective with high sectional density and ballistic coefficiencies needed to do well. When I found that a .490" RB has a BC of 0.069 and put that with the velocity that 80 grns of 3F T7 gives I quickly tossed the idea as it was in the mid 300's of ft/lbs at 100 yds. That couldn't work well, especially being so light.

But having read a lot and asked a lot of questions on the traditional muzzleloading site I see that that RB is likely to pass completely through a deer broadside. I read and read way too many accounts of this to dismiss. Even at shots past 125 yds!

It seems with the lower velocity at around 75 yds you lose expansion, which gains better penetration. It goes against what I know, but it seems to do it. Over and over again!

I've since dismissed the need for a conical unless I were to hunt large game like elk, but many have taken them with a PRB out to 50 yds or so.

I do, however, want another barrel for this rifle that I can attach a Malcolm style scope and shoot conicals/sabots for hunting fields and whatnot.

But for stalking or within 100 yds I'd just use my PRB's.

Another thing I've become curious about is using light loads (30-50 grns) and head shooting small game animals! Seems strange to use such a large projectile, but many people seem to do it. Guess I ought to try before I buy another caliber rifle, which would supply my small game needs for a very looong time! But who doesn't need another rifle?!?!

[rodwha]

I've recently been looking at twist rates and length of projectile. A 1:48" twist seems to be ideal for a 255-265 grn .45 bullet. I'd guess that ~300 grns in a .50 cal projectile ought to be about perfect, but I see Lyman claims to have designed the 370 grn Maxi just for that twist and these rifles. Guess you don't know until you try!

I wouldn't be willing to buy a mold until I knew it worked well enough though...