Yet another .45ACP problem thread.

[Cmm_3940]

Greetings to all, I'm new to the board and to casting.

I have been reloading .45ACP for a while now using commercial bullets, cast and jacketed, and have never had a problem. Now, my first attempt at loading my own cast boolits is giving me trouble. Yes, I've searched the forum. Experimented with the advice found. Searched some more, tweaked some more. Now, I've finally decided to ask my own questions, so here we are. Am I over-analyzing this? Is it something simple?

1) rack slide, first round goes into battery, fires no problem. Action cycles, no problem.
2) second round fires, action cycles, third round sticks short of battery. clear round, rack slide.
3) third round fires, action cycles, fourth round stuck in chamber. Hernia time. Clear jam. Well, the case anyway. Powder everywhere. Boolit stayed in barrel leade just past chamber. Light tap with the cleaning rod after disassembly and it came out.

4) Search forum some more. add more TC. Old crimp was .472. Try again with TC of .469-.470

5) Clean and reassemble gun. repeat steps 1,2,3. power everywhere, boolit stuck AGAIN.

The guns - Les Baer Concept I and Concept VIII. These things are voracious. They've happily consumed everything I've fed them until now. LSWC, LRN, FMJ, JHP, light loads, heavy loads, you name it. Not a burp.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cm6259/DSCN0036.jpg (http://s224.photobucket.com/user/cm6259/media/DSCN0036.jpg.html)


What happened:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cm6259/DSCN0032.jpg (http://s224.photobucket.com/user/cm6259/media/DSCN0032.jpg.html)

boolit of the left is a 'clean' unchambered round. Boolit on the right is the one that jammed/cleared. Third boolit is well.. unfortunate.

Note sticky crud and lead shavings around the rim of jammed round. Why the crud? Too much lube? I cleaned each round after loading.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cm6259/DSCN0035.jpg (http://s224.photobucket.com/user/cm6259/media/DSCN0035.jpg.html)


The boolit:

Lee 452-230-TC, 6 cavity mold.

Alloy is half a pot of range lead, mostly commercial hardcast, with a muffin ingot of linotype added. About 10 pounds altogether. BHN around 14 or 15 via Cabine Tree.

Pan lubed with White Label BAC, 'cookie cutter' made from a modified case, then ran through the Lee .451 sizer. (started with .452, more in this later).

The Cartridge:

OAL 1.20, Taper crimped to .469. Mixed brass (Win., Fed., PMC) 8.3gr AA #5

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cm6259/DSCN0033.jpg (http://s224.photobucket.com/user/cm6259/media/DSCN0033.jpg.html)

Dimensions of seven samples:

sample OAL TC HS Bbl Hood
--------------------------------------------
1 1.2015 .4685 PMC flush no contact with rifling
2 1.205 .4685 WIN flush
3 1.2035 .470 WIN flush
4 1.2035 .469 FED flush
5 1.2035 .469 FED case head protrudes .017"
6 1.2035 .4685 PMC case head protrudes .025"
7 1.2035 .469 WIN case head protrudes .03"

FWIW, I've shot stuff with the case head sticking out more than this with no problem. I didn't even realize it until I started looking closely at these. I assume the slide just rammed them into battery.

On a side note, I started off using the Lee .452 sizer and got jams and lots of shaved lead in the chamber. I figured, since Les Baer is known for being a 'tight' gun, I'd be better off with the .451 sizer die. Now, instead of just jamming up solid, I have the problems described in this post.

Thank you for your patience, any help appreciated.

-Chris

[hanover67]

I had a problem with shells not chambering and it turned out to be insuficcient crimping. But, tha doesn't seem to be your problem. From the pics it looks like your boolits are jamming in the barrel, despite your sizing them to .451. I would do 2 things: 1) Slug your barrel and see if there is a tight spot at the breech end, and 2) Take the barrel out of the gun and use it as a gauge - drop loaded rounds into the breech and see if they fit. If they don't chamber, maybe you can see where the restriction is. Just based on your pics, it looks to me like a tight barrel.

[hanover67]

Oone other thing. Since you're using mixed brass, maybe you have some that are too long and it might be worth spending the time to trim them all to the same length.

[tomme boy]

Seat them deeper. See the line where the taper starts? Set it just shy of that line and try it.

And yes as you know Les builds them tight. Too tight if you ask me. I have told him this several times. Make sure everything is oiled well. If it is not it will stop on you. Make sure to put oil on the hood as well.

I see you have one of the new ones made in IA. I shoot with one of the guys that works there sometimes, and his stops running on him too. Oil it up and off it goes. Too tight!

Oh, update your profile so everyone knows where you are from. Sometimes someone local can help out much better than over the net.

[MtGun44]

Seat boolit deeper and increase TC to .465.

Bill

[Catshooter]

A normal 45 ACP chamber has almost zero throat, so the distance from the end of the brass to the start of the rifling is, you guessed it, almost zero. Your problem is quite typical for a 45. Tommeboy and MtGun have called it. The tiny little bit of .451 diameter lead is being grabbed by the rifling and it doesn't want to let go.

In my 45s I never let more than .020 to .025 of shoulder protrude from the case.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.


Cat

[bruce381]

Shorter for sure but the thin line of lead thrown up at the case mouth maybe looks like too much crimp I run my baers at .470-.471 NO probems

[bosterr]

Anyone notice the ridge of lead pushed up by the case on the round on the left? Then the pic below that shows that ridge of lead now stuck to the side of the case. I can sure see this ridge also collecting in the chamber causing failure to go into battery if what the others say that Baer guns are tight chambered. Was the bullet seated deeper after the round was crimped? I didn't know if there are seat/taper crimp dies out there. Seat and crimp separately should cure that.

[jonp]

I had similar problems and after many replies to a thread here from the fine folks I did this and solved the problem.

1) Seated the boolit deeper by moving the case mouth up onto the shoulder and t/c there
2) Experimented with the crimp. Turned out I needed to get to .469 before it worked and now do all my brass at .468
3) Seated and Crimped in 2 separate steps using a Lyman Crimp Die
4) Segregated the brass by Head Stamp and measure each lot. I bet the different HS are different lengths and thickness. You will have to re-adjust your dies for each. You can solve this by using one maker but I shoot only a few hundred rounds every couple of weeks so I just adjust my dies.

3rd Picture from the end the boolit on the right looks like it has been moved back into the case and is now shorter than the boolit on the left. IMO sure sign the seating depth needs to be lessoned

[kens]

that smear of shaved lead is what I get seating boolits. Bell the case mouth a bit more before seating boolit, or get a bevel base boolit, or use extreme care when seating.
And yes, seat boolit deeper, 1911's seem to run better with a deep seated boolit vs a long OAL.
Also, the OAL listed in the loading manual is usually the MAX OAL, they don't list a minimum.
I have Lee flat nose boolit that runs good at 1.100 OAL.

[captaint]

Baer chambers aren't that tight. Mine eats everything - although I don't have any TCone boolits like yours. I make sure my loaded rounds sit EVEN with the barrel hood and I taper crimp to .471/,472. No problems, ever. Also, I size all my 45 boolits to .452. Mike

[44man]

I see shaved lead from not enough flare. I also see the one boolit bumped deeper, case tension? What dies? Lead can be shaved by the crimp when the boolit hits the rifling, too long?
What concerns me is the powder did not ignite, the primer drove the boolit in the barrel. What primer? Now I don't know if it was fired or just pulled and the boolit was stuck in the rifling so I would seat deeper.
No mention is made of powder used I can find. Might be the wrong powder under loaded. (Only important if the trigger was pulled.)
Good suggestions to follow and I have to go along that the boolit is too far out and trying to enter the rifling. That shaves lead and forces the boolit deeper.

[Cmm_3940]

Thanks, all. I reset the seat plug to 1.18" which puts the case mouth right at the top of the shoulder. TC of more than .469 - .470 seems to squish the boolit, so I left that alone. I notice the little ridge of lead at the case mouth appears on the cases with thicker walls (Winchester) so it looks like a seperate crimp step is needed like everyone is saying.

I'm thinking now that the commercial cast bullets I've been loading - some 20 yr old LRN 230s from the old National Bullet Company - are harder than my new hand cast boolits since I've never had a squish, stick, or plowed-up ridge problem before.

I'll test the shorter seat depth Monday and report back.

-Chris

[Cmm_3940]

44man,

The case had plenty of flare when loaded. I flare so the bullet drops in to the bottom of the lube groove with no force applied. The consensus here so far seems to be OAL too long. Die set is RCBS 3-die set w/carbide sizer die. Primer is Remington, powder is AA #5 8.3gr, which should be hot but not quite max, around 950fps IIRC. The cartridge never went into battery, so the primer was never struck; the boolit came out due to inertia, like with a kinetic bullet puller. Even with a TC of .469.

[C.F.Plinker]

If your boolit is the conventional (non-tumble lube) desogn and you are expanding the case enough that the boolit just drops into the case up to the lube groove with no pressure I would suspect that there is very little neck tension. Especially with a .451 diameter boolit. Try backing the expansion off until you just barely expand the mouth. Since this is a bevel base boolit, you shouldn't need much expansion. The minimal expansion should increase the neck tension.

Then unscrew the seat/crimp die a turn or two and put a temporary washer under it. You can now seat without crimping. Adjust the seating stem to seat the boolit where you want it. Seat a few. Now adjust the stem upward several turns, remove the washer, screw the die body down, and crimp these few boolits.

See how they work. You have increased the neck tension and seated and crimped in separate steps.

It sounds like the low neck tension could allow the boolit to move forward under recoil and chambering. This, in turn, allowed the boolit to be held by the rifling and pull apart when the slide moved back spilling the powder.

[jonp]

Thanks, all. I reset the seat plug to 1.18" which puts the case mouth right at the top of the shoulder. TC of more than .469 - .470 seems to squish the boolit, so I left that alone. I notice the little ridge of lead at the case mouth appears on the cases with thicker walls (Winchester) so it looks like a seperate crimp step is needed like everyone is saying.

I'm thinking now that the commercial cast bullets I've been loading - some 20 yr old LRN 230s from the old National Bullet Company - are harder than my new hand cast boolits since I've never had a squish, stick, or plowed-up ridge problem before.

I'll test the shorter seat depth Monday and report back.

-Chris
I had a bunch of fun with Win Brass before it dawned on my to measure it and it is thicker. I seperate all Win out and do them together.

[243winxb]

This >
1) Seated the boolit deeper by moving the case mouth up onto the shoulder and t/c there
2) Experimented with the crimp. Turned out I needed to get to .469 before it worked and now do all my brass at .468
3) Seated and Crimped in 2 separate steps using a Lyman Crimp Die
4) Segregated the brass by Head Stamp and measure each lot. I bet the different HS are different lengths and thickness. You will have to re-adjust your dies for each. You can solve this by using one maker but I shoot only a few hundred rounds every couple of weeks so I just adjust my dies.
Plus make sure the seating die is not removing the bell to soon. I had to open the inside of mine. Dont remove the taper crimp part.

[mdi]

Have you tried the "plunk test"? (I may have missed any mention of it). From your descriptions, I would say seat deeper and try the plunk test to determine how deep to seat the bullet. Personally I don't crimp any semi-auto rounds, I use a taper crimp die to straighten out any flare in the case mouth, as neck tension keeps the bullet in place and excessive crimp will buckle the case.

Thr round should drop into the chamber to the end ("thunk") and fall out easily with the barrel inverted.

[44man]

Have you tried the "plunk test"? (I may have missed any mention of it). From your descriptions, I would say seat deeper and try the plunk test to determine how deep to seat the bullet. Personally I don't crimp any semi-auto rounds, I use a taper crimp die to straighten out any flare in the case mouth, as neck tension keeps the bullet in place and excessive crimp will buckle the case.
Best I ever seen, thank you.

[jonp]

I have that picture over my bench and it is a quick reminder what to check when reloading and doing a plunk test. Great picture.
#2 and #3 will work great. #4 will work if and its a big if you can take your thumb and push the boolit in with very little pressure.

[MtGun44]

Taper crimp as a seperate operation.

Bill

[35remington]

I hate to say it, but to a large degree the difficulties you are having are due to mistakes in how Baer set up the pistol.

How dare I say Baer made a mistake when they are widely feted as being the ultimate in 45 automatic builders? Because, to a great degree, the additional "tightness" adds nothing to accuracy in an arm that already has a loose and variable slide/barrel relationship. The "tightness" of the chamber is not a limiting factor in the accuracy of the arm.....it's the fact that the sights are on the slide and are separate from the barrel. And that the barrel points in a slightly different direction every time it returns to battery.

There should be some amount of freeborn to allow a somewhat longer OAL because the 1911 pattern pistol prefers a slightly longer overall length than you will have to be running with these bullets to get them to work. 1.220" or in that vicinity would be more desirable.

Very possibly there is also minimal radial clearance for bullet release, which is also ridiculous. An overly tight chamber just makes a potentially problematic feeder when the gun gets dirty. Having minimal clearance for bullet release makes sense in a benchrest gun, but is nonsensical in a 1911 because it is far from the most limiting factor in the attainment of accuracy in the 1911 platform.

No throat, tight chambered 1911 that necessitates a shortish OAL and oversqueezing the case in various ways to get it to fit?

If it were mine, I'd send it back. 1911's were not intended to be set up this way.

[35remington]

Or, don't shoot rounds that have full caliber bearing surfaces that can engage the overly short leade. You can always just shoot the rounds that did not give you trouble, and the problem lies with how much full caliber bullet is outside the case mouth. That's the easy way.

I notice on your pictured unchambered round in the first post that you have lead plowed up in front of the case mouth.....you're seating the bullet and closing the case around it at the same time. You need to readjust your dies so this does not happen.

[Cmm_3940]

Thanks, guys, that did it. I reduced the OAL to 1.18" so the shoulder is almost completely seated. Problem solved. I went back to the standard sizing of .452 also. The more I search this place, the more I find this solution already posted. Guess my search-fu is not strong. :-?

Chris