30-06 18inch barrel and 30gr H4895 ?????

[Plastics Savage]

I've noticed not to many of you lead slingers mention my old favorite powder H4895. I'm not sure why? It can cure headaches, cough, bad skin,and the need for 20 different powders. My question is will 30gr of this miracle, pushed back to the primer in an ouht-six burn completely in a 16inch barrel.
The reason I ask is, old beat up rifles in this cartridge are a dime a dozen around here. I'm now set up to cast for and shoot this cartridge. I would like to carbonate an old junker because I have a carbine fetish.

[Ben]

No, I don't think you'll burn that much ( completely ) IMR 4895 from an 06' in a 16" barrel.

Ben

[Plastics Savage]

Thanks Ben

I was afraid if that, having good luck with 30gr H4895---2gr fluffed cotton---lee 309-200-R---Xlox.
Really don't want to use pistol powders. Unless I can't stand not building that carbine.
Any body loading a cast 160gr 06' for short barrels?

Thanks again for the response

[runfiverun]

who cares if it all burns in the shorter barrel.
if it shoots good go with it, if it don't try something else.

[Plastics Savage]

Thanks runfiverun

The the problem is, to find out I have to attack this poor 149.94 rifle with a hacksaw to find out.

it's all a -------- guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

[jmort]

Yes it is a WAG. 4895 is a panacea. Very versatile. That and Varget.

[Plastics Savage]

you can't buy anything with lead
It does appear you can sell the stuff!

[Plastics Savage]

jmortimer

I think so but do you think it will do the job in a 16inch 06'?

[jmort]

I am less concerned with the potential for unburnt powder than most I suppose. Unless there is a crazy amount of powder left unburnt, the real issue for me, is how fast is the boolit going and is it accurate. Waste not want not makes sense, but 16" barrels/carbines are nice things. I only have 22" .308. Would like an 18".308. To answer your question, yes, I think it will work and work well. Now prove me wrong.

[Plastics Savage]

jmortimer

1. I'm not a fan of fast or I would not be here.
2. Accuracy is my goal.
3. 18inch is a good compromises but I'll still need a new hacksaw blade.

[jmort]

"I'm not a fan of fast or I would not be here."

Me neither. I just like to know how fast/slow the bullet is going. My prediction is around 1350 fps for what you are describing.

[Plastics Savage]

jmortimer

Well this will take some cogitation.
Will keep you informed.

[bearcove]

Look in the lyman loading manuals in the contender/encore data section. Gives you a very good idea what you can expect with a 15 " barrel.

42 gr of IMR4895 170 gr bullet 2139 fps in a 15" barrel. 300fps loss vs. 24"
22 gr of RX7 190 gr boolit 1358fps 300fps loss vs 24"
38.0 gr RX7 190 gr boolit 2229 fps 20fps lossvs 24"
17.2 gr unique 190 gr boolit 1615 fps 60 fps loss vs 24"

Just a few examples. Some lose 300 some are almost even. No data for H4895 though.

[jmort]

Much better "performance" than I would have expected. 9" shorter barrel only lost 300 fps. The Carbine idea lives.

[NSP64]

I use H and IMR 4895 data interchangable, BUT I only load light loads and it is my fingers/face. I like to experiment on the safe side.
I am currently loading 6.4 gr of Win. 231 in my 21" barreled 308. (1007 fps with a 195 gr boolit)

[Plastics Savage]

bearcove

Thanks I always like to find published data.

[runfiverun]

one other thing you can do is to use less powder and a filler.
this does a couple of things for you which should help.
i'd be more inclined to use an 18" barrel length, and a smaller case.
the filler makes the 0-6 act like a smaller case to begin with.
and you are making less gas volume for a second.
you basically make the 4895 act like 3031 in a 308 instead of 4895 in a 30-06.

[Plastics Savage]

I'm using 2gr fluffed cotton ball and feel that is getting close to a packing problem.
Been snooping around hear for a while and am thinking about a Titegroup load.
Just need to find some more data.

[bearcove]

I'm a carbine fan. I think it would do well. Down side is if you push it to get higher vel it gets loud. Up side is you have capability to shoot stronger loads if you want.

My filler experience is that polyfil will help keep powder close to primer. After it starts to burn it is like its not there. Reduction of volume at those pressures will not happen. If you can crush it between your finger tips what affect does 15,000psi have?

[Plastics Savage]

Crapped out today


bought 9oz Trail Boss and borrowed 1/2 cup of unique.
Did not get new hacksaw blade yet.

[Plastics Savage]

Hello out there (In here)

If anyone is interested this is my progress to date.
1. Read a lot about trail boss here and gave up on Unique.
2. Loaded 9gr trail boss under 180gr plain base round nose and shot 20 rounds that cut the 1" bull out at 40 yards.
3. Loaded 19gr trail boss under 180gr plain base round nose 5 shot group did not hit the paper at 100yds. At 50yds 1 missed the paper, 1 key holed, 3 where
everywhere else.
4. Loaded 9gr trail boss under 180gr plain base round nose, 5 shot groups are all 2" at 100yds (excluding trigger nut problems).
5. bought a new hack saw blade.
I found the 9gr load at a link I found here, it should run about 1100fps and that is very consistent in all the info I could find.
These are only my observations!

keep your powder dry

[DukeInFlorida]

Is it me, or is anyone else wondering why this post is in the TEST area of the forum?

[aspangler]

Please tell me you are not going to actually use a hacksaw to cut that barrel. There is no way you will be able to cut it square. If it's not square and crowned right it will trow lead all over the range. NO ACCURACY!

[Kraschenbirn]

It's not really difficult to (properly) shorten a barrel with a hacksaw. Use a plumbers tubing cutter to mark the barrel, cut carefully with a hacksaw, square up the muzzle end using a machinist's square and a fine single-cut file, recrown the bore, and buff with a bit of emery cloth. All it takes are some basic metalwork skills and a few common hand tools.

RE: SHORT BARRELS Haven't gotten around to chronographing yet, but 36.5 gr. H414 under a Lyman 311566 (155 gr Loverin) seems to work pretty well in my Spanish 1916 'Short Rifle' (21" barrel) in 7.62x51. Moderate muzzle blast; very little unburned powder in the barrel; and groups around 3" @ 100M using issue sights.

Bill

[TCLouis]

Full power loads are shot out of 15" Encore barrels all the time.

May not be the same, but

Jus sayin . . .

[Plastics Savage]

Hello Everyone,

I believe this is in the test area because page one of the forum said this area is for newbies

Progress to date:
I'm falling in love with trail boss I don't how useful it is but it is sure fun.
I've got 200gr GC over 10gr trail boss to group 3.5 inch at 140 yds.
150gr BTSP over 14gr trail boss grouped the same.

You can eyeball the loads from limited data (and IMRs warning) then fine tune with about 10 rounds.
I've got 5-6 hundred rounds of oddball 30cal. projectiles that I'm having a great time finally using up.

Yes I did use a hacksaw to create a 30-06 carbine with an 18 inch barrel. As Kraschenbirn said above it's
all in the TLC (and 40 some years shop time). So far I have gained a very small bit of accuracy every time I've done this.
I am not taking credit for the accuracy that is generally attributed to less barrel whip. You also loose some velocity but
at 1100-1300 FPS I doubt I have what it takes to tell. Should receive the new front sight from Midway this week then I'll
let everyone how it turns out.

P.S. the inspiration for this project is the Enfield "jungle carbine"

[Plastics Savage]

OK

I'm sorry and confused I don't Know how I got here?[smilie=b:

[Outpost75]

FWIW I have used 30 grains of RL-7 as a heavy cast bullet hunting load in everything from my Krag carbine and .303 British No.5 Jungle Carbine to an M1 Garand. In the M1 with #311299 this load cycles reliably, if slugishly semi auto and gives 2080 fps.

Use same bullet and charge in Krag and. 303, K.I.S.S. principle.

I get about the same velocity in the 20" Krag and. 303 that I do in the M1. The somewhat higher pressure in the smaller case compensates for the difference in barrel length. Works for me!

[Plastics Savage]

Outpost75

Thanks. I'm going to look into that.
I can't seem to get a pound of the same powder twice in this town right now.

[Plastics Savage]

Hello all

Installed the front sight last night. Hope to get some rounds down range tomorrow. I don't have any 200gr boolits loaded still shooting the oddballs.801318013280133

[Plastics Savage]

Sorry still new to this stuff

Here are the stats:
Overall length 39inchs
Barrel length 18inchs
Length of pull 13.5inchs
Empty weight as seen 7.75lbs
trigger pull approx 5lbs
Williams 5D rear sight and screw on front ramp sight (with modified hood)
Limbsaver recoil pad
Winchester web sling

[Plastics Savage]

Howdy

Here is the latest on the project.

on the left factory barrel---scope on 6X---lee 200gr G.C.---30gr H4895---guesstimated 1700fps
100yds---no wind---72F

on the right carbine barrel---Williams 5D peep sight---lee200gr G.C.---14gr Unique---guesstimated 1400fps
100yds---no wind---64F
8071180712

[millerwb]

Looking good, though I won't be cutting my RA 30a3.

[smokeywolf]

Kind of surprised that the old Alliant 2400 loads haven't been mentioned.

[Larry Gibson]

Plastic

To answer your original question; I have, for many years been an advocate of 4895 for use with cast (jacketed too in many instances) in most rifle cartridges. While any flavor generally works H4895 is my favorite. I taken a lot of flak from several "experts" here for my recommendations but I've a thick skin and since 4895 works most everyone ignores the flak........

Yes, 30 gr of H4895 will burn nicely in an '06 with 18" barrel. Especilly with the heavier bullets of 180 - 210 gr when a dacron filler is used. I'd expect 1700 - 1800 fps and very good accuracy with a 311284 or preferably a 311299.

Larry Gibson

[Plastics Savage]

Hey

I can tell everyone that if that had been an 03a3 in mil. wood I would not have used it for this project.
I will also say I'm very pleased with how it turned out.

I did a quick look at 2400 looks like about the same performance as the Unique but less pressure that's worth looking into.
I must admit I did enjoy the smoke and stink when firing the Unique.

Thanks for the comments I'm here to learn from people with the same interests.

[Plastics Savage]

Larry

Thanks I'm finding these pistol powders are interesting. I'm also felling sharper recoil and more erratic performance.
The biggest advantage with fast power is not weighing and stuffing those fillers. I'm sure when the novelty wears off
I will probably go back to my tried and true load lee 200gr---30gr H4895---2gr cotton. My need to add a grain to compensate for
those missing 4inches.

By the way I expect to get flak about the novelty comment.

[millerwb]

I really like H4895 in my 06 and 270. Great powder. Will be happy when I can get some more as I am almost out!

[millerwb]

And yes, the 03a3 is full mil. It was likely a Marine Issue due to the hooded front sight and I think the Marines were the only ones to use that. It looked to have no wear to the Park when I assembled it. Either it was rebuilt at some point and then stored or it was never issued.

[Plastics Savage]

millerwb

At this point in time I can only hope for a full dress A3. I do have my eye on a non german Mauser for 249.99 but need to learn more about them before I can even spend that much.

[Plastics Savage]

Sorry Folks I'm back.

57 days without a day off and a couple 12s to make sure I didn't get in trouble.
Had a week end to rest then I did some more testing.
Results as fallows: All 30 cal J-words and Trail boss gone.
lee C309-200-R WCWW w/gc 10 gr Trail boss very nice plinker
lee C309-200-R WCWW w/gc 9gr Unique very nice plinker
lee C309-160-R WCWW w/gc 17gr Unique absolute disaster, 8inch group at 100yrds, sharp recoil as compared to 30gr H4895.
lee C309-160-R WCWW w/gc 7gr Unique BINGO! my new plinker 2.5inch group at 100yrds (iron sights) for my brother and myself.
NOTE:I hope to load lee C309-160-R air cooled without gas check this week end and have the same luck.

I would like to mention that I found an Article on this sight that could have saved me all this experience.
Find it here at "Forum * Guns & Shooting * CB Loads/Military Rifles * Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles - Article"
A fantastic article and I thank the authors. I'm glad I'm doing it my way but it is great to have a reliable bench mark for verification.

[Plastics Savage]

Greetings

Here are the last five of today's test.
30-06 100yds no wind (sights where not adjusted for these loads)
Lee C309-160-R air cooled WW with white label Xlox lube and no gas checks.
7gr Unique and a standard large rifle primer.85459

[helice]

PS
Saw the pictures of your project. Nice rifle. Your group above is impressive (minute of a deer heart). These cast boolits are a bunch of fun.
I don't have my 'o6 back yet but I have worked on loads in a sporterized Spanish FR-8 with about an 18 inch barrel in 308. If the thought of it doesn't gross you out too much try C.E. Harris' 13 gr of RedDot load called "The Load". It has been a stellar performer in the 308. I have also had similar performance with the 700X. Harris also encouraged what he called the Universal Load. It's 16 grains of 2400. This one has been most gratifying when used with the 311284 (near 220 gr) or the 311334 (near 200 gr). These have also proved themselves in a Model 600 Remington and a Model 99 Savage, both in 308.
Glad you're having fun. Glad you decided to join us. Keep sending pictures. It makes the forum most interesting.

[nanuk]

my understanding is powder is burned completely in the first few inches.... it is the pressure that is still up, and is at issue with shorter barrels.

otherwise handguns would have serious deficiencies...

I wish I had kept all my gun articles from a couple moves back..... I had lots of references on stuff like this

[Plastics Savage]

Thanks Folks for the info.

Now I am loading the 30gr H4895 rounds and remounting the scope on the carbine.
Weather permitting I'll start the testing to help answer the question that started this discussion.


:lovebooli

[Plastics Savage]

Well I'm back

After carbonating the old girl and loading the same go to round
(lee 309-200-R**WCWW**GC**30gr H4895**1gr fluffed cotton ball)

Remounted the scope.
87632

The point of impact at 100yrds rose approximately 1inch and moved 1inch right.
There is no sign of unburned powder as was the general opinion of the more experienced members.


:lovebooli

PS. My shooting was off today so no pics of a target.

[Plastics Savage]

Ladies and Gents

This should be the end of my self indulgent thread.
In my novice opinion the 18 inch barrel is a complete successes.
No lose of performance or unburned powder.

88405

The only surprise is how much fun the "plinking" rounds turned out to be,
hope the old 10/22 doesn't get to lonely ;-)

:lovebooli

THE END

[cwheel]

Think you need a new friend with a lathe, forget the rusty old hack saw blade. Not only can the barrel be cut down this way, also can get a new, fresh crown cut as well. Rifle might have a chance to actually shoot well that way. Just keep the OAL of the rifle in the stock over 27 1/2" to keep the feds happy.
Chris

[Gtek]

I have an old Westernfield 732 / Mossberg 810 I picked up in a pile. Barrel had been completely knocked out in the front by who knows what. Eats a .306 pin, goes back to normal at a fat 19" at .302". My father bought me a 732 for my twelfth birthday, I still have that one and several others I have picked up for parts (that's the excuse I am going with). Out of the four there is not one bore the same. The one dad picked is .301/.3085, and the others are whatever up to .304/.309. Have you slugged that thing? I have never owned a hacksaw that talented, but one of the lathes probably can find 11 degrees again. Dangit, I have enough going on right now, work, Xmas, unfinished projects. Dangit! Gtek

[Plastics Savage]

Gtek

No I haven't slugged this old 810 but it shoots better groups with a "lee 309" than I can.

To all concerned
I have no problem with my "tinker make" military crown it to can out shoot me.:smile:

:lovebooli

[Fran G]

Hi new guy here.. I use 3031 in my 06 pump 47gr 150 bt and the group are 1in at a 100