.45 meplats beyond 80%, accuracy at 100yds?

[Changeling]

This is a question of "actual knowledge" of accuracy with flat point meplat bullets past 80 % (.3616 and up to ?) relative to .45 caliber bullets in revolvers at 900 to 1250 fps, give or take.
If you also have knowledge of velocity at 100 yards please add this information, it would be very much appreciated.

The weight of your cast bullets is absolutely necessary along with it's meplat diameter, or it means litterally nothing in this research.

Thanks guys.

[Outpost75]

In my experience accuracy is normal up close, but dispersion becomes nonlinear beyond 25 yards.75902

This load does not shoot well at 100 yards at all. Velocity 800 fps.

This being Accurate 45-240A, dimension are on their web site.

[Lloyd Smale]

some here claim to be able to get accuracy with them but im not in that camp. For the most part to me a wfn is a good 50 yard game bullet and thats about it.

[44man]

No need to have over 80%---Just why? My boolits do run from 78% to 82% and I have no problems out to 547 yards.
If for hunting with say a .44, I have seen no difference between a WLN and WFN at all. Both work as does a Keith. Other factors enter into killing.
Weight, velocity and match to twist is always first and a few % of meplat that is not needed will not make any changes. Too large a meplat can kill worse then a WLN.
The thing said wrong is; the boolit is already as large as an expanded bullet. Stop reading gun rags!

[Changeling]

My reason for asking was a lot of people seem to be excited about very large meplat bullets (I'm talking .45). I am in the process of getting a new mold made (for .45) and thought I would check out things as best I could, because actually I found myself being caught up in the thought of it.
I resently found an old email from back when I joined this forum from Veral Smith. I had been writing him at the time about a mold for my ".44 Mag" (witch I purchased from him). In our conversations I commented on the subject of wanting to get a .45 and try out the super size meplats.
He basically told me to get that "****" out of my mind, because accuracy just wasn't there at distance! Well I basically forgot all about it till lately and it seems you guys are all in agreement with what he had to say back then.
His WFN in .45 were in the .36 range if any one is interested as I suppose they will be. However he varied his bullet molds somewhat (Small amounts) when talking to a customer and what they wanted/expected.

OutPost75, I haven't looked it up yet, but that's a "BIG one". You found out the hard way, I'm trying to bypass that. Thanks for your response.

Lloyd, you already knew, always great to hear from someone as experienced as you. You nailed this question correctly, thanks.

Jim, I don't read "Rags", Pearce taught me to disregard those things.
The problem is as I see it when people keep talking about WFN/WLN, very few people have any idea of what size meplats they are without specific sizes like 1", .3616 (happens to be 80% of .452), 87% (.39324), these are things everyone can grasp when talking about size. Nothing else matters!

For instance a WFN could mean anything, from zip up to bore size.
It's like buying shrimp, Humongus/Extremely large/Large/Tremendious/monsters, all baically means the same thing, they are probably small to medium!

Thanks to all, I am going to change the parameters I have been using to design this new mold to fit you guys experience. I believe it now has a chance of becoming a really great bullet mold.

[John Boy]

...meplat bullets past 80 % (.3616 and up to ?) relative to .45 caliber bullets in revolvers at 900 to 1250 fps, give or take.
If you also have knowledge of velocity at 100 yards You still haven't said why you are even venturing to shoot a 45 Colt in a revolver at 100yds or more. In my mind - an exercise in administrative futility

[Outpost75]

You still haven't said why you are even venturing to shoot a 45 Colt in a revolver at 100yds or more. In my mind - an exercise in administrative futility

We shoot fixed sight revolvers at 100 yards at all of our matches, and practice with them on the 12" gong daily. The target below was shot with my Colt New Service M1909 from a supported sitting position. There is nothing out of the ordinary with this group. There are younger guys with good eyesight who do better than this and it is alot of fun!

76001


76002

[Ed K]

For instance a WFN could mean anything, from zip up to bore size.
It's like buying shrimp, Humongus/Extremely large/Large/Tremendious/monsters, all baically means the same thing, they are probably small to medium!


Not at all. A WFN is simply bore diameter-0.90" So a 45 is 0.451"-0.90"=0.361" or 80.0%. Note that a 44 is .429"-0.90"=0.339" or 79%

[44man]

Oh yes, I have dropped deer in their tracks at 100 yards. Why not? It is a great caliber.
The point from to OP is about a large meplat but I found it is no better then a WLN even if I get them to shoot. To go over is no advantage when hunting. People say it is but the pressure wave is wider. Not the same as an expanding bullet that is slowing down in passage.
My Vaquero has done 1" groups at 75 yards with the Lyman 320, the Lee 300 and the LBT 335 gr.
You do not need more then 75 to 78% or what an LBT WLN is. The Keith meplat works, I just don't like the shoulder.

[44MAG#1]

I shot 45 Colt at 100 yards offhand last Thursday and did well.
Why not shoot them at 100 yards?
I don't get it.
Why are people locked in to short range even when shooting offhand?

[44man]

I shot 45 Colt at 100 yards offhand last Thursday and did well.
Why not shoot them at 100 yards?
I don't get it.
Why are people locked in to short range even when shooting offhand?
Good, well done. Can a .45 hit at 800 to 1000 yards? I have not done it but believe it could be done.
It is the nine and .380 mindset but the .44 and .45 are real guns, not a BB gun.

[fecmech]

Why are people locked in to short range even when shooting offhand?
Because a lot of people can't hit anything beyond 7 yds.

[white eagle]

sorry

[DougGuy]

Changeling, I don't mind research for the sake of knowledge (which I hope for all the effort you have put into this wide meplat subject you will share with us once you figure out whatever it is you are after..) but there are certain limitations associated with each and every single thing we do in life. Shooting is no different.

The trick to most of those is learning to live within them. The endeavorous among us learn to stretch them to a degree of their liking. That would be me. And I invented that word just for this thread.. The most practical among us, learn to swap them for limitations they can then live within and still achieve their intended goals.

My short barreled Vaquero in .45 Colt really loves heavy weight WFN boolits. I brought it around for hunting out of a tree stand since I was taking a surprising number of deer directly under my stand. It's iffy beyond 40-50yds with those loads, and my 60yr old eyes. This is viewed by me as a very real, a very certain limitation. A hard limitation I would call that one, meaning it is one I cannot change. That is of course until they invent tree stands equipped with Ransom rests for pistols.

To sidestep this above limitation, which when put in the context of hunting would be a very significant limitation, I am bringing my 7 1/2" SBH in .44 magnum around to getting introduced to the WFN Lee C430-310-RF boolit perched atop a healthy charge of LilGun or H110 whichever proves itself the best.

In scouting out my chosen hunting area, the distances in my shooting lanes in the woods would dictate which revolver would be my sidearm that day. Should I go to a thicker patch of woods, the Vaquero would likely be my choice.

Should the distance be more than either of the pistols can reliably claim a good kill, there is the rifle or the scoped slug gun. Why with such good shooting long arms would I be concerned with what a boolit will do well beyond the limitations of me and my pistol? So, as previously mentioned, why the study of a boolit which by most accounts would be well beyond it's useful range in most handguns? It would be different if you were taking this to task for a levergun in a pistol caliber.

But... I digress.. Carry on...

[Outpost75]

I agree.

76071

I got the Accure 45-240A (pictured at right) not for 100 yard gong plinking, but to have a different bullet, visually distinctive and different from my other primer .45, Saeco #954 (pictured at left) to develop a heavy hunting load for my Ruger Blackhawk. I would use the Accurate bullets only in the Ruger revolver and perhaps in my Marlin rifle of same caliber, if it shoots well. That remains to be seen. I am told that the LBT WFNs need to be driven harder. So far I have used it only in .45 ACP loads about 800 fps from a 4-5/8" barrel.

The purpose I got the 45-240A for was to prevent me from inadvertently inserting a "Buffalo Load" in my old S&W Hand Ejector or Colt New Service! The dimensions of this bullet are optimized for the Ruger specifically, it drops at .4515" and fits the cylinder throats of both the ACP and Colt cylinders of my Ruger convertible.

In my old Colts and S&Ws I must use the Saeco #954 bullet which drops .455" and are optimum in the old revolvers without sizing.

[Changeling]

Thanks to those who made an attempt at answering the "original question"! A few did OK. The rest just went off on there own little ideas of what I was doing.
Try reading the original question before you start slinging verbal Boolets!

I think some of you guys should read the post then read your answers. This kind of **** happens all the time!

[happie2shoot]

I hope this helps, the lee rnfp 300gr.gc at 1475 from a Ruger SRH .454 Cas.
has shot in 2 1/16 at 100 yds.
With the GC and lube it is 310+ gr. and the meplat is .370+ dia.

[MT Chambers]

Keith believed that those wfn bullets acted like a wadcutter and became unstable at longer ranges, whereas the swc spun true and was more accurate at distance.

[leftiye]

Kieth didn't fear to shoot a ways with a pistol/revolver. Accuracy that makes a pistol deadly at well over 130 yds is reality. I mean not that you would eventually be hit, I mean you would be hit in a vital place right now! That's the only answer that has any meaning to the question "Just why would you be shooting a pistol at 100 yds?" I remember guys at my shooting range (Rod and Gun club) back in California before California became rotten, practicing at the 100 yard range with their 1911s. Btw that's before there was a .44 mag (back in the 50s). Elmer proved it way before then, and still "Why would you be shooting a pistol at 100 yards?"!

[44man]

If I had some with a larger meplat I would be willing to test them. Maybe for a gun I have with a red dot instead of the Vaquero, some creeper stole my sights! .44 would be good.

[grampa243]

You still haven't said why you are even venturing to shoot a 45 Colt in a revolver at 100yds or more. In my mind - an exercise in administrative futility

45acp in 1911 at 230 Yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cnop15VA8

sorry for the highjack but i just want to point out shooting a longer ranges can be done.. i shoot autoloaders so i can't give feedback on meplat sizes that don't feed in my guns.

[44man]

Sorry about my comment about gun rags. But they seem to push a larger meplat for hunting but ignore velocity. They work fine shot slower.
Now shooting far does not mean you need to hit everything, it is for fun yet you will be surprised how you WILL hit some stuff.
The years have gone fast but I loved Elmer, down to earth man. I bought my first .44's in 1956. I shot 100, 400 and even 550 yards back then. I never found a limit that did not amaze me and friends. It was Elmer's fault that opened up long range revolver shooting for us.
Now I don't like a wad cutter or any boolit that the nose edge engages the forcing cone instead of the ogive. Need steerage there.

[Outpost75]

50-yard groups from my RBH with Accurate 45-240A. #2400 in. 45 ACP case is not recommended, just trying to see if slamming bullet harder was better at 50-yards than 800 fps load with 4.5 grains of Bullseye. It was, but #2400 left alot of unburned powder, even at 1000 fps.

76282
76283

[Changeling]

Sorry about my comment about gun rags. But they seem to push a larger meplat for hunting but ignore velocity. They work fine shot slower.
Now shooting far does not mean you need to hit everything, it is for fun yet you will be surprised how you WILL hit some stuff.
The years have gone fast but I loved Elmer, down to earth man. I bought my first .44's in 1956. I shot 100, 400 and even 550 yards back then. I never found a limit that did not amaze me and friends. It was Elmer's fault that opened up long range revolver shooting for us.
Now I don't like a wad cutter or any boolit that the nose edge engages the forcing cone instead of the ogive. Need steerage there.

No problem on the gun rags Jim, I've seen a lot of BS written in those things that was for attention getting, not actual knowledge. In the "press" I believe they call it sensationalism.

The whole intention in the post was to find out the largest .45 meplat size, bullet weight, that would produce excellent accuracy at 100 yards and kills in the Ruger 5.5 inch Black Hawk. I want to do these things without going over 290 grain bullets give or take and don't believe this to be an impossible task.
The bullet will be for shooting deer and playing at distance, therefore my reason for wanting accuracy! However I have to keep bullet weight down because of the spine injury from the wreck I was in.

Everyone talks about WFN and WLN, however very few people know what that equates to in " actual size", you would be surprised at how many people think it's an expression to mean any size meplat!!

Anyway that is the gist of it. Take care.

[Lloyd Smale]

Dont know if youve tried it yet or not but the rcbs 300 grain swcgc is probably my favorite heavy 45 colt bullet. Swcs can be hit or miss for accuracy just like wfns but that bullet has allways shot real well in any 45 colt ive tried it in and even does well at long range. Nice thing is it seems to shoot just as well at a 1000 fps as it does at 1300. Ive taken deer, pigs and black bear with that bullet and its allways gave quick clean kills. Its one 45 bullet i wouldnt be without. By the way it casts about the weight your looking at out of 5050 ww/lino.

[44man]

That is a good boolit. I have the Lee 300 gr and just measured the meplat best I could and it is almost 82%.
True there are only the original WLN and WFN boolits from LBT but they all vary anyway. I don't think any have specific measurements.
Any close to my LBT boolits are just labeled as close. Someone called my WFN an "almost WFN" but what difference in the end? All I can say is they are larger then the WLN.
I file the nose for the cherry on the lathe, never measure and quit when it looks good to me. Never found a deer with micrometers in his pocket.
Velocity is the most important for accuracy and it does not matter what it is as long as the boolit is stable. Some use a chronograph to work loads, looking for things not important or looking for as fast as the gun will shoot.
The twist on the .45 Ruger's is 1 in 16" so a heavy boolit does not need shot fast. My best are around 1160 fps. Forget the stuff of turning a .45 into a .44 mag, does not need it or will fail to shoot good. You need a slower twist if you go for broke. Then the question of a 5 shot cylinder.

[mellonhead]

Dont know if youve tried it yet or not but the rcbs 300 grain swcgc is probably my favorite heavy 45 colt bullet. Swcs can be hit or miss for accuracy just like wfns but that bullet has allways shot real well in any 45 colt ive tried it in and even does well at long range. Nice thing is it seems to shoot just as well at a 1000 fps as it does at 1300. Ive taken deer, pigs and black bear with that bullet and its allways gave quick clean kills. Its one 45 bullet i wouldnt be without. By the way it casts about the weight your looking at out of 5050 ww/lino.

X2. This bullet has been a goto bullet in my 45 calibers for a long time.

Toby

[Changeling]

Thanks Jim and Lloyd, I haven't settled on any particular bullet yet. Still trying to figure out a style/weight/meplat to have Accurate molds.com make me a mold.
Money is short this month and next, my auto insurance and my sons both due, county taxs due, summer college for my son just paid, plus all the regular bills OH and I received a recall on my Toyota truck about frame rust, I took it in and they are keeping it saying it's unsafe to drive and they don't have any more frames so they won't fix it!!!! With out transporation now.
Waiting for a buy offer from Toyota now. You just know they will treat me fairly! Yea Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might have to get a lawyer on this.

[44man]

Tell me about it. I am on SS and just got tax bills. Those people are nuts.

[Good Cheer]

We shoot fixed sight revolvers at 100 yards at all of our matches, and practice with them on the 12" gong daily. The target below was shot with my Colt New Service M1909 from a supported sitting position. There is nothing out of the ordinary with this group. There are younger guys with good eyesight who do better than this and it is alot of fun!

76001


76002

Three cheers for the 1909!
Thirty years ago my target load was the 45468 with the ogive machined out to a straight cylinder and the hollow base pointed forward. Never had any problems with accuracy or leading. And it surely would roll an armadillo at fifty yards.

[happie2shoot]

I think a WFN is .090 under boolet diameter and LFN is .125 under boolit dia.

[CLAYPOOL]

As for the truck frame they made a deal with 1 of our guys that works at Tunnel Hill Trail in Vienna, Il., for a new truck replacement on the cheap for his old rusty framed one. I may have misspelled Vienna. This took place about 5 - 7 years ago when I was still working. I don't remember the exact figures but he sure got a heck of a deal .. and a new truck...!

[Dannix]

Interesting comments about WFN and WLN. I've always thought of those as bearing surface vs nose length descriptions, with meplat being a completely independent variable.


Forget the stuff of turning a .45 into a .44 mag, does not need it or will fail to shoot good.
To clarify, would I be correct in assuming .454 is another matter though?


Velocity is the most important for accuracy and it does not matter what it is as long as the boolit is stable. Some use a chronograph to work loads, looking for things not important or looking for as fast as the gun will shoot.
That gets pretty close to describing me with 9x19mm loads (the only handgun round I reload for), though my chronograph use is to have an an idea regarding pressure levels. Best velocity seems to be a requirement for 9x19mm effectiveness though, which is why I bother.

[Lloyd Smale]

just got my property tax too Jim and am getting my money from the same place you do. Problem is the tires on the truck need to be changed right now so taxes are gettting pushed to the side for a couple months.
Tell me about it. I am on SS and just got tax bills. Those people are nuts.

[Lloyd Smale]

As to what constitutes an actual lfn or wfn or wlfn youll have to ask veral smith. He invented the terms. Id guess if you asked him though hed tell you that if its not his design its not a true wfn or lfn. Kind of like calling a swc a kieth. I though though that he stated what he considered were the proper dimentions for the lfn and wfn. Maybe it was in his book i read it.

[DanWalker]

Thanks Jim and Lloyd, I haven't settled on any particular bullet yet. Still trying to figure out a style/weight/meplat to have Accurate molds.com make me a mold.
Money is short this month and next, my auto insurance and my sons both due, county taxs due, summer college for my son just paid, plus all the regular bills OH and I received a recall on my Toyota truck about frame rust, I took it in and they are keeping it saying it's unsafe to drive and they don't have any more frames so they won't fix it!!!! With out transporation now.
Waiting for a buy offer from Toyota now. You just know they will treat me fairly! Yea Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might have to get a lawyer on this.

I have a couple or three different 45 molds I can toss in a FRB when I get home in 3 weeks. Cast yourself up a bunch of each, and see which your gun likes, before plopping down your cash. I spent all winter casting out here on the rigs, so I'm set for a while for boolits. Just PM me your mailing address.

[Changeling]

I have a couple or three different 45 molds I can toss in a FRB when I get home in 3 weeks. Cast yourself up a bunch of each, and see which your gun likes, before plopping down your cash. I spent all winter casting out here on the rigs, so I'm set for a while for boolits. Just PM me your mailing address.

Dan you are quite the man, and I really appreciate it, but I have been in tight situations before and I'll pull through just fine.
I haven't forgot that you were the first man that would answer my dumb questions when I first joined this forum and still really appreciate that very much!

I thank you my friend, but I will figure out things, just takes some time, like every thing else in life! Besides, I have 2 x wives that don't have any legal hold on me anymore, so I guess that makes me a "Lucky" Man! Hang in there.
Talk to you later, Changeling.

[Ramjet-SS]

I use the Lee 6 cavity the bullet drops 310 grains my 45 colt loads are for my Henry Big Boy but the meplat is close to 80% of caliber. I drive that bullet to 1650 FPS from the rifle and shoot right around 4" from a peep sighted rifle at 100 yards the front sight covers the target but I center it and get consistent accuracy. I might add I tumble lube these and use the Lee push through sizer. I have used Verals molds for Many many years both the LFN and WFN velocities from my various guns ranging from 38-475 all take deer and Elk with out driving these large heavy bullets. My accuracy has been real good in all my guns everything from revolvers to Ruger no1 and lever guns. I think there is so much more than just the meplat design to accuracy it is not really as significant a factor as the many other factors in the load-gun-sizing factors.