need some machining tips

[Cane_man]

i am a self taught machinist, i dont know what i am doing completely i just do what works for me and i am probably doing things incorrectly and i probably have some bad habits... in the past i worked with softer materials (Duronze and German Silver) which were very forgiving and easy to ream and lap so good technique was not a premium... but i am finding out not so with tool steel...

i would appreciate your insights here:

reaming - what speed should i run the lathe when reaming? i will be using a 2 flute reamer made from W1 heat treated and annealed and it is probaly 50 RC hardness, and my lathe can slow down to about 50 rpm and speed up to 2000 rpm... i noticed when reaming that if i turn it too slowly the lathe doesn't have enough power to make the cuts.. i will be step drilling the point forming die, then reaming... do i ream it twice?

lapping compounds - i have some brass laps made up, where is a readily available source for lapping compounds... i hear the aluminum oxide is the way to go with steel but i cant seem to find any... and what grits should i be using... this is in context of lapping a point forming die and blind hole lapping... [smilie=b:

[nhrifle]

If we were talking CNC equipment I could give you actual speed and feed numbers, but on our home machines we have to wing it. The rule of thumb when reaming is half the RPM of drilling and twice the feed for the same size hole. With my little lathe at home, I just back down on spindle speed till I feel comfortable and give the reamer a nice, slow and gentle ride into the part. Be sure and use plenty of cutting oil, or better yet, use some CNC coolant in a squirt bottle and keep the reamer bathed in coolant. Heat is the bane of cutting tools, and it is worse with reamers.

Not sure about the lapping compounds. Hopefully someone else can chime in about that.

I hope this helped a little, be sure and post your progress. We are all learning together!

[john hayslip]

If the tool steel is already hardened then you probably should anneal it, ream, and reharden. Isn't valve grinding compound aluminum oxide? Get a catalog from Enco or one of the other large tool suppliers.

[Cane_man]

^^^ the tool steel is reamed in the annealed state to approximately 0.004 oversized, then any scoring from the reamer is lapped taking out approximately 0.002, then the tool steel is heat treated and tempered to a hardness of 50 RC or so, and then lap the final 0.002 or so

[Reload3006]

Do you have a recommended FPM for your material? is O1 or W1 etc the steels we are talking about? I am guessing but would suspect you should be shooting for about 100 - 250 SFPM the formula for finding that is SFPM x 12=Pi x diameter x RPM since you are probably turning your tail stock to drill calculating your chip load is probably a waste of time just go slow and allow the tool to cut.

[customcutter]

Cane,
I think valve grinding compound is Al oxide, worth a try, and should be available at an auto parts house. Seems I also remember reading somewhere (maybe KTN's thread), that they used cast iron for a lap. I got some 1/4" brass, that I'm going to try also. I haven't found any cast iron less than 3" on the sites I've looked at a few weeks ago. I'm sure it's available, just haven't found it.

CC

edit, Laps are another reason I'm going ahead with the ball turner. I want the laps the same size as the reamers, or very close.

[Cane_man]

dang, i was reaming out the die today and the tip snapped off my latest version of the reamer :groner:

i was turning the die really slowly and advancing the reamer slowly as well, it hit a drill step locked into the metal and snap!

thanks cc, i got some valve grinding compound 2 pack at the auto parts store, one tube is course (Bing says it is 120 grit) and the other fine (280 grit), just about right for rough lapping

this die might be the end of me [smilie=f: but i dont give up easily so i will eventually kick its butt

[customcutter]

Been there done that with my first reamer. It was a 4 flute. Entirely my fault, I forgot to temper it back after heat treating and it shattered like glass. I think I'm OCD myself, for what I've spent trying to make a set of dies, I could have bought a lot of bullets to reload with. OOPS I forgot, I can't find them anywhere, (and they are only going to harder to find in the future), so that's why I'm making the dies:bigsmyl2:

Plus, I've bought a few more tools and learned more about machining since starting this project.[smilie=w:

I've got some valve grinding compound around here too. If I can lay my hands on it.

CC

[JRPVT]

Cane, I usually grab a piece of soft stock to try new tools on to get the "feel" of them. Then you can practice feeds and speeds until you're comfortable with it. Then go for the real cut. Always use coolant, it really does make a difference.
jrpvt

[bob208]

i think you would be better off boring it to size rather then reaming. but if using a reamer use lots of cutting oil or it will cut over size.

[Cane_man]

is "coolant" any different than cutting oil?

[Reload3006]

Yes and no. Coolant is what is put in machines to be used as a cutting fluid it provides machining lubricant and rust prevention on the machine.

[nhrifle]

There are coolants that are rated as cutting fluid, but I am dubious as to the validity of that claim. True cutting oil has high pressure lubricants that operate under extreme conditions. Coolant is an oil that is mixed with water in a ration of 6 to 15 percent depending on application.

[KTN]

dang, i was reaming out the die today and the tip snapped off my latest version of the reamer :groner:




I know the feeling, I have broken my share of reamers [smilie=b:. With 4 flutes .224" reamer tips get really thin, so my latest reamer is 3 flute :wink:. Keep up the good work.


Kaj

[teddyblu]

Hello KTN
I havent seen your posts for a while, but I follow them.
I also find the four flute difficult to manuf. and went to the three flute. Made one 308 three flute and looks and sharpens great.

[customcutter]

KTN & Teddyblu,

Just wondering, when you made the 3 flute reamers, did you mill the slots? Similar to the 4 flute except 120* instead of 90*?

Teddyblu,

IIRC, you used a "grinder" on a tool post? Was it set up like a ball turner/radius turner, to achieve the "ogive" or were you just "eyeballing" it?

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

wow, KTN is like bigfoot... you hear a lot about him but never see him! :shock:

you can see here where he mills the flutes:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75201-Home-made-dies&p=856545&viewfull=1#post856545

3 fluted reamer, didn't think of that... i have to use my tool post and different sizes of end mills offset of the center line to work as a ghetto mill, but it seems to be working OK with limitations...

[teddyblu]

I use a mill and rotary index, and 120 deg spacing.
For the ogive I use a home made radius grinder with repeatable settings.
KTN uses the mill head set at an angle to shapen the point, which is great.
I use a swiss file to sharpen the point taking only 3-5 minutes. probably takes 20-30 minutes to recalibrate the mill head to 0.0

KTN may come in and tell his version, I would be glad to here any comments he has..

if KTN has a picture to show a 3 flute reamer great. If not I will post a pic tomarrow of th .308 I made.
Larry

[blaser.306]

Search diamond lapping compound over @ fleabay! Many grits available ranging from 400 - 200 000 mesh equivalent! Reasonably cheap and guaranteed to cut hardened steel !

[KTN]

Don't have any pictures right now, my old computer died and all pictures:violin:.... and it took me 7 months to buy new computer, that's why I haven't posted for a while.
I used bolt and nuts to make hexagonal holder for reamer blank. First I shimmed nuts on bolt so that all sides were straight, next lathe turned little bit of from corners to get consistent diameter and then milled all 6 sides straight and concentric.
Set it on lathe and drilled center hole for reamer blank, next drilled and tapped holes for set screws on all 6 sides, first hole about ½" from end and second about 1" from end, one hole per side.
With this holder slowly spinning in lathe, I can adjust blank with set screws until it's spinning straight.
Then it's just milling 3 flutes, filing, hardening, tempering and final sharpening.

Few more tips.
For derimmer and core seat punch I use 5.1mm=0.200" double-end drillbit and for core swage punch 4.9mm=0.193" drillbit.
It's nice to see I'm not the only amateur machinist trying to make swagedies :bigsmyl2:.



Kaj

[customcutter]

Larry,
thanks for the explanation. I found your thread last night with pics of your radius turner using a rotozip and grinding wheel. Looks like a good set up, and as you said repeatable. I'm in the process of building a radius turner, about half way through it. I need to find a carbide insert to use on the top of the tool, so that I can finalize that section. Still have other work to do, and hope to get some time in on it tomorrow.

If the flutes on the 3 flute are not exactly 120*, it would affect the final diamater, correct? Probably not enough to be an issue due to the die being lapped to final dimension.

thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

Kaj,

It sounds like you made a miniature "spyder" out of a bolt and nut to adjust and hold the reamer straight. Similar to what a machinist would use to chamber and thread a rifle barrel, on the outboard side of the headstock to align the barrel with the lathe axis.

You are not the only amateur machinist trying to make dies. However, I will say I wouldn't have attempted it without finding this forum, and reading post like your's showing that it can be done. Thanks or posting here and showing the rest of us how to get started. I knew I could make the first 3 dies, but the point forming die is the most difficult.

Glad you have a new computer, and hope that you will be posting often to help us newbies along.

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

i got closer today, i used some of the tips given here and this is what worked:

-slower cutting speed, it was probably about 200-300 rpm
-slowly advance the tool, i was advancing it mm by mm or so it seemed
-clean the chips out of the die often
-lots of cutting oil
-the reamer will ream larger than what you think it is sized for... i know someone warned me about this, i wanted the die reamed to 0.220 at the shank so i sized the reamer for this, but when i was done reaming the shank was 0.224!

so i am on to version 78.4 of my point forming die reamer...

other things that worked:

-when heat treating just get the reamer to orange with no hold time then quench, before i was holding for 2 minutes (i am using W1 tool steel annealed)
-ogive shaped brass lap worked well
-diamond lapping compound worked well
-step drilling worked well, used 3 steps then drilled out the eject punch hole
-using a d reamer to hog out the steps, then finish with a two fluted reamer worked well

i am getting very close now, hopefully this weekend i will have my foot on it's throat... :roll: ya, right....

[customcutter]

Cane,

You are using 0-1 for your D-reamer, correct? Or did you use W-1? How did you temper it back from 65+ RC? Seems I've read somewhere that someone used W-1, heated to orange, and then quenched in oil. They said the oil was slower quenching and therefore it didn't fully harden and no need to draw it back? Any thoughts?

Where did you get diamond lapping compound? Must have been local or you overnight shipped? What grit or grits?

I know you've got one foot on it's throat, just put a little more weight on it, till you hear it's neck snap.:bigsmyl2:

[Cane_man]

i am using O-1 for the dies and W-1 for the reamers...

for the W-1 i heat to orange, quench in water, then temper in the kitchen oven for 1 hour at 350F, let it air cool...

not sure about quenching in oil and not having to temper, the tempering is not not really a big deal so i am going to keep doing it...

i had already gotten the diamond compound off ebay a few months ago but wasn't sure how to use it... it got it from some chinese vendor in 400 grit, 1200, and 3000... easy to glob on to the brass lap, lap for a minute or so, wipe off the lap, then recharge the lap, rinse repeat...

i am going to whip this bad boy like a red haired step child then i will be happier than a three-peckered billy goat! :guntootsmiley:


just got some new Truglo sights for my Glock G20, need to take time out from die making to install these and test them out...

[customcutter]

OK, I used W-1 for the reamer, heated to dark red, quenched in water, then heated in a toaster over at 450 for an hour. I think my mistake was only going to dark red, it deformed when I attempted to ream the stepped drilled 4140PH die (the 4140 should be about 35RC). I'm going to try the orange next reamer.

What RPM are you lapping at? Are you using different sized laps? Seems I read several post on that subject.

I'll know when you get it. I'll hear you yelling from here. It's only about 3,000 miles right? BTW, never heard the one about a 3-peckered billy goat. Heard the one about being as excited as a puppy with 2 peckers though, so 3 must be better.

[Cane_man]

4140PH.... i tried using some 41L40, when i heat treated it the first 10 mils or so was soft like scale and came right off, i was concerned the inside of the die was like that too... i am sure i didn't heat treat it correctly, but it machined awesomely...

i am lapping at 2000 rpm... i only have one lap size right now at 0.210, but i will make larger ones when i get to that stage...

you should read that Ted Smith SAS book on die making, it is a pdf and i have posted the link for it several times in this subform, good read and lots of subtle insights on how to get this done...

[Cane_man]

starting to feel like this guy, specially equipped with the trifecta:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd244/FamerMack/gilbert.jpg

redid the two flute reamer so it was smaller, step drilled and bored with the d reamer, then finish reamed to 0.219, right now i am stopping for the day but after 2 hours of lapping the die is at 0.2225 as i put a case up about halfway and punched it out to measure... one thing i learned is that you don't want to try and fully point form a case that is over-sized!!!

as i am about 0.002 away at this point i need to heat treat and temper then it will be ready for final lapping... got one foot on its throat, then hopefully tomorrow i will break its neck!

i am getting pumped :happy dance: the die looks smooth with no scoring lines, and i made a few more sizes of brass laps and they are working great...

edit: when you heat treat clean the die off before with some denatured alcohol or something similar to take all the oil off, it makes it much easier to clean up later...

[customcutter]

I have Ted Smiths book marked in my favorites, and have read parts of it a couple of times. One day I'll try to take time and read it all and hopefully some of it will sink in.

Sounds like you are making good progress. I'm curious to see if your die dimension changes after heat treating. What RC are you going to try for on the die? BTW, that's one mean looking Billy Goat.

I didn't get to spend as much time in the garage today as wanted. Went to a flea market this AM, and bought 15-20 reamers, most over 1/2" and 12" long, American mfg. Also got about 50 HSS lathe bits all for $100. We were headed home and decided to stop in a gun shop in Lakeland and the had Ruger 1911's on sale for $609. The wife bought one for me for our 40th anniversary in a couple of weeks.[smilie=w:

I did manage to get the 1" hole bored in the base for the radius cutter. Then I squared up and faced off the tool holder, using a fly cutter. Finally just finished milling a slot in the piece that rotates for the tool holder to mount in. Need to mill the slot for the retaining screws to mount in and drill and tap them. Drill and tap for a bar to rotate the swivel section. Then cut the tool holder to height and mount a carbide insert and I'll be in business. Also want to try and mark the swivel section and tool holder so that radius can be accurately measured. Maybe a few more sessions and I'll have it ready.

[Prospector Howard]

Been gone for a few days on some R & R and I come back and lots of progress being made. Cane, you might want to consider the final size at this point. The bullet diameter will affect where it shoots as far as left, center, or right of center. One reason I stopped at .2235 was because when I tested the new swaged bullets on my three .223 rifles they shot very close to the same on all three as the copper jacketed bullets I'd been shooting and still shoot (Hornady 55 gr fmj's mostly). I wanted them to shoot as close to the same as possible. If all you'll be shooting is your own swaged bullets then it won't matter so much. The Hornady bullets measure .2239 as a general rule, and I think with the brass being slightly harder than the copper; the bullets end up shooting very similar being slightly smaller. Hope this makes sense, I'm a little groggy still from vacation. I like the way you are doing this point die. That's always made the most sense to me-- drill it out slightly undersized, step drill the ogive area, use a D reamer the same shape as the fluted reamer, and then finish reaming with the fluted reamer (basically just cleaning it up and smoothing it out before lapping). Can't wait to see you get it licked.

[Cane_man]

i finished it up today, it was somewhat of a partial success, but not totally satisfied:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-v3001_zps6692db7f.jpg

you can see the swaged bullets sized to 0.2238 with Sierra production bullet in the middle, the 2 fluted reamer and d reamer, the brass laps, and the point forming die...

i sort of fumbled on the goal line, as my final lap (the last one of the right) had too large of a meplat and you can see it on the final bullets... also these bullets had cores that are a little too big as they are sizing over about 1 grain at 56 grains, the over filled lead had to be trimmed off with a razor and it doesn't look too clean...

all in all i have eneded up with shootable bullets, and i will keep this die for now... but now that i know the finer details involved i will make another die next week and get it OCD perfect... or at least that is the plan... i need to take a few days off from this and take care of some honey do's and such

cc, congrats to you and the Mrs. on the 40 years as that is a great accomplishment :awesome:

[customcutter]

Cane,
Are you cutting and swaging your cores? You said they were about 1 grain over at 56 grains. Did you notice a difference in size before/after heat treating? If so, was it larger or smaller? Did you notice your brass laps changing dimension as you lapped? I saw a "re-pointing" die a couple of weeks ago that some bench rest shooters use. Might be able to use something like that to reform the meplat.

Good luck with the honey do's. Take a little R&R from the dies, even though I know you'll be figuring your next angle of attack. I know that's what I'm doing, when I'm not in the shop. I'm trying to figure out how to do the next operation on the radius cutter. I was thinking the other day, once I get the radius cutter made, even if I don't get a point forming die made, I can use it to make brass bullets with the 6' piece of .250 brass I ordered.

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

even if I don't get a point forming die made

what? of course you will get your point forming die made... you like challenges, most people start with the easiest die and go from there and do the point forming die last, but what does cc do? he tries to tackle the hardest part of the project first! i like that :)

you gotta finish that radius cutter, once you do you will be able to turn out blanks at will to make reamers and laps, it will be a huge time savings and you will get consistent and repeatable results...

i cut then size the cores, then seat/swage them... i will just make some new cores tomorrow, its easy to do...

didn't measure the die after heat treating so i don't know what happened, but any warpage gets taken care of during lapping, that is the advantage of heat treating with 0.002 or so to go as you can lap it out... when i did measure my .40/10mm dies they did change dimensions after HT, and the ID seemed to be slightly larger from what i remember and there was some slight out of roundness as well... but like i said if you allow for this it is easy to lap out...

the brass laps wear when you use them... for example the first lap i started with had a shank od of 0.210, when i was done using it it measured 0.196... of course the larger grit needs a smaller lap, and the finer grits needs a larger sized lap... never understood the lapping until i actually had to do it on this die, but i got it now... you have to do it evenly and watch your "dwell" times, 2 steps forward 1 step back kind of thing, as it is easy to get a taper on the shank or to take out some of the ogive or flare the meplat (you can see the latter two on my bullets above)... you square the shank taper with a final sizing die but you cant fix a broken meplat or ogive radius :(

not worried about this die, i will use it as a backup die as it will swage shooters and maybe i can fix it later... i feel confident i can get a decent point forming die done now as i know the pitfalls and i will be much more careful this time when making my laps and when lapping... the valve grinding compound is great at first to get the lapping going and taking out the initial 0.002 and removing any scoring and roughness from boring and reaming, the 400 grit works well in the middle of lapping, and then with the last 0.001 or so the 1200 and 3000 grit diamond compound worked well and prevented me from removing too much material and it gave a smooth finish... i had no ejection problems with this die... oh and one more thing, i turned a bolt with a 0.223 diameter as a "check" so i could tell when i was getting close to the final diameter as it would only insert in the die if it was 0.2235 or so...

with your radius cutter are you using a lathe cutting tool, attaching a small grinding wheel, or using the teddy method and attaching some type of rotary tool?

edit: i think i will just reload 25 of these and take em to the range and see how they shoot

[customcutter]

Sounds like you did learn a lot from making that last die and some careful observation. I need to look on flea bay and find some diamond lapping compound and get it ordered. I plan on using carbide inserts mounted on the top of the radius cutter. I need to find a suitable carbide insert to mount on the top of the tool holder for the radius cutter. I don't know what all the different letters/numbers, etc mean on the inserts. I did look in the Enco catalogue last night, and noticed that on regular carbide they only had C2 & C5, seems like inserts have every combination of the alphabet and numbers. I guess I could just get some 1/2" tooling and get some extra triangle inserts and use them. I was thinking of getting a diamond shape, but don't think they will be as "universal" as the triangle inserts. I've got some 1/4" tooling from HF, but think I'll upgrade to 1/2".

Looking forward to a range report on the bullets made with your newest die. Hopefully you'll have cooler weather than 105* last time.

[Prospector Howard]

Great work Cane. You've really taken the bull by the horns and gettin it done. You're giving alot of others inspiration to do it themselves. I'll be interested in seeing the range report too. When you shoot some groups, try comparing them to the Sierra bullets you have, that'll be interesting. If you're in an area anywhere as hot as where I live, I'd go about 5 in the morning. What is the ogive that you ended up with on that die?

[Cane_man]

thanks Howard... it was supposed to be 6S, but i made some mistakes when cutting the ogive and lapping and it flared some and i would guess it is probably an 8S or 9S, just the price of an education in point forming die making when you are doing it on your own without someone there to help you :) ... you can see it next to the 6S Sierra and it is flatter... i am going to make a new die and correct the mistakes i made here... however, it really comes down to how they shoot, and i know some guys really like the 9S, so i am taking these out Friday to the range and see what i can do with them:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-v4006_zps06ae8e4b.jpg

there are some folded tips in there, but i soon realized that you really don't need any lube near the tip just on the shank and when i started lubing the shank only the folds near the tips went away...

[Cane_man]

cc, as i am making this second point forming die (OK, this is really #4) i had a thought that maybe the production bullet could be used as a lap (i think i go this idea for cb member 'martin')... if i could just turn it down some so it could be loaded with lapping compound it might just work... had an idea on making an Al collet so i could turn it in the lathe and sand/turn down the Sierra FBHP some... i will let you know as this could be a game changer... :)

[Cane_man]

range day... saw two yotes on the drive out at 7am, usually dont see them out like this... i am guessing due to the warm dry spring/summer we have had they are coming down lower to find game... that was a bonus, love to see those critters and they are fun to call in...

here is one of the better groups, shot with a rest, 100 yds, 10 mph headwind right at me, probably about 90F:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/moa-1002_zpsd4155f03.jpg

the brass was not sorted just used what i pulled up, the cores were not sized to be uniform with one another, and the final bullets were not sorted either... i just used what i made... i could get two or three to group up then there would be a flier... most groups with fliers were in the 2" to 3" moa range, a few like this one were less than two moa... really not bad at all and i would feel comfortable hunting with this... 50 years ago our daddies were happy if their deer rifle could shoot 1.5" moa at 100 yards...

leaves some room for improvement :) and i am working on that next point forming die this weekend using the factory bullets for laps...

[customcutter]

Don't know if you'll be able to turn down the factory bullets, the jackets may not be thick enough. That being said, I guess you could "invest" in some "copper" bullets. I also think your groups would tighten up just by sorting your 22lr's by Mfg. Some one else on another forum also said that everytime he got a piece of brass with a "heavy" firing pin mark, it would cause a "flier". When I asked him about it, he said that he would indicate the projectile to the cartridge, and the cartridge to the chamber. He said they always flew high and right.

Don't know if I'll get to do much in the shop. We're going to have the 3 granddaughters for the next week.:mrgreen: