Smoothbore vs Jaeger Rifle? HELP PLEASE

[Greebe]

Hey there,

I have a dilemma. It is a gun buying dilemma as our kind often have. I really want a smoothbore in .62 cal/20ga like one of the Northwest trade guns. The first time I seriously started reading about them was about 5 years ago and since that time there have not been many months that go by where I did not think about having one. I am currently looking at getting a kit such as one of the North Star West, or Track of the Wolf kits. How are these as far as the quality of the parts?

I have also been very enamored with the Jaeger rifles and would love one of those as well. However my wallet will not allow both at the moment, so I am having a hard time deciding which route to go. I live in dense woods and shots are typically fairly close. I do hunt some fields though and shots can get a little over 100 yds. Mostly I hunt whitetail, but would like the option to be able to hunt small game and bird. This is where having a smoothbore would be very nice. I wonder though if having a smoothbore would be very limiting as far as the reduced range? In the next year we are moving up to the norther part of Minnesota so the hunting conditions will be similar.

The Yaeger is the most beautiful muzzleloading rifle in my eye and I would really like one, however the versatility of the smoothbore seems like it might be better. I do have a Hawkins rifle in .50 cal and never really cared for it too much. In fact it has only been shot once in over ten years. Part of that is because I shoot a lot of cartridge guns so most of my time has been using lever actions and single shots in that time.

So I am thinking that maybe the smoothbore would make more sense right now since I have a rifled muzzleloader and then at some point I could get the Jaeger. The only problem with this is that I was thinking about selling the Hawkins to fund this new purchase. Ahhhh what to do? Also if I am going to get the .62 smoothbore then it would make more sense to have a Yaeger in .62 so as to have only one round ball to cast.

So what do you guys think? I know that was a lot to read so thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond.

Greebe

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I hunt river bottoms when up north in the USA. Eastern ILLinois and primerily the North Fork River. There are a few times I can see 100 yards. I have been a military arms enthusiast since I was a little feller and dad hauled around muskets. Shot my first deer with a 58 Zouave. But some years later got my first caliber .60 smoothbore flinter. Little by little the I started using it more and more. Last 2 times up in ILLinois I did near all my hunting with a flint smoothbore. The one exception is I took a flint Hall (caliber .54 rifled) out twice as I would like to pop a corncruncher with a flint Hall once. But the caliber .60 smothie went out to pop crows, hunt wabbits, scout about for coyotees, grounghogs and whitetail. As I mentioned I hunt river bottoms and that .60 smoothbore will pop a deer or anything as easy as a rifled barrel will out to 50 yards. And so far the longest shot I have taken in years is right about 33 yards.
If I did not have bottoms to hunt I might be more inclined to use a rifled barrel... But I have near sold them all. Still have a couple rifled flinters and a couple rifled muskets but they see near no hunting time at all.
Mike in Peru

[Greebe]

Thanks guys for the response. Mostly I am day dreaming right now since I have no money to buy either, but it is fun to daydream. If I can manage to sell some other guns or maybe my motorcycle I could then get one of these so it is possible depending on how motivated I am I guess. I have thought about reboring the Hawkins to a smoothbore, but the barrel is just a hair under 15/16" and has a dovetail cut in for the front sight so it would have to be a smaller gauge smoothbore.

Anyways thanks and I welcome more thoughts.

Greebe

[longbow]

I have the same problem and would really like a .62 smoothbore trade musket. However, I do like a rifled bore as well so I am considering going the Track of the Wolf route and getting a smoothbore .62 with an additional rifled .54 or .58 barrel so for an extra $200 or so I get two guns in one.

Unfortunately toy money is scarce at the moment but I can still dream and this is my dream!

Just something to consider even if you wait on getting the second barrel.

Longbow

[waksupi]

Well, I own one .62 transitional Jaegar, and two 20 bore flinters. I also build guns for North Star West.
If you are going to build it yourself, and don't have much experience, the trade gun is the way to go.
In your area, you most likely have a lot of opportunity for small game, and they are loads of fun for that. The ranges you shoot deer at, the smoothbore would probably be a good choice. A lot of your range and accuracy limitations directly relate to how much you shoot the gun in practice.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?77646-Transitional-Flintlock

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?164808-Here-s-that-left-hand-trade-gun

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?47725-Finished-my-fowler

[Greebe]

I have the same problem and would really like a .62 smoothbore trade musket. However, I do like a rifled bore as well so I am considering going the Track of the Wolf route and getting a smoothbore .62 with an additional rifled .54 or .58 barrel so for an extra $200 or so I get two guns in one.

Unfortunately toy money is scarce at the moment but I can still dream and this is my dream!

Just something to consider even if you wait on getting the second barrel.

Longbow

I hear you about having your own dream. It will be nice though if one day my dream would be a reality. LOL Fitting a second barrel is not a bad idea. I will keep that in mind. Thanks

[Greebe]

Well, I own one .62 transitional Jaegar, and two 20 bore flinters. I also build guns for North Star West.
If you are going to build it yourself, and don't have much experience, the trade gun is the way to go.
In your area, you most likely have a lot of opportunity for small game, and they are loads of fun for that. The ranges you shoot deer at, the smoothbore would probably be a good choice. A lot of your range and accuracy limitations directly relate to how much you shoot the gun in practice.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?77646-Transitional-Flintlock

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?164808-Here-s-that-left-hand-trade-gun

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?47725-Finished-my-fowler

I have not built a blackpowder rifle but I have built some centerfire rifles. Re-barrel work, stock work etc. I don't mind the challenge, I just want the most useful rifle I can build. Shoot if I could get my father to give me his old lock (flint) that he has had in his blackpowder chest for the past 40 years, perhaps I could just make my own stock and small parts and not spend much. However he still thinks that one day he is going to use it. Perhaps.

That transitional / Jaeger is drop dead gorgeous. I would love to own a rifle like that but would be afraid to use it hunting.

You mention that you make these rifles for a living, any chance you have any old beaters that I could rehab for cheap? Shoot even if you had some parts that I could trade you for other stuff or machine shop work that would be great.

Thanks,
Greebe

[johnson1942]

i know northern minn. you have to think about what else you will run into up their. a large moose and black bear population. you most likely with be hunting power line cuts in the woods. dont limit your self to deer. you need a large bore, reliable and well made. you will want to hunt bear, plenty of mountain lions up their also. waksupi is your man on this one. im going up their next week and again the only opening in the woods are lakes and powerline cuts. you will love it, bring good winter clothes and a good fishing rod also, your going to love it. we had 5 black bears last year next to our cabin, and the young lady who worked in the local rural store had her horse badly mauled by a mountain lion. the moose can be the most dangerous critter up their, they dont move for anyone.

[johnson1942]

the deer look as big as elk.

[longbow]

Now those are some nice looking guns waksupi!

My choice would be the backwards trade gun in reverse of course. I have a soft spot for trade guns... my wife says I have a soft spot between my ears... I also have a soft spot for Southern Mountain Rifles... maybe she's right!

Longbow

[Shooter]

Get a Jaeger, have a smoothbore barrel made for it.
Problem solved.

[KCSO]

If you are interested in a 20 Ga Tule I stil have one left for sale and it's priced right, less than parts cost.

Now as to the dilemma i would start with the smoothbore just for the all round versitility. You can shoot shot or bal and harvest just about any game within 100 yards with practice. If I had to have just one gun it would be a 20 bore trade gun.

[Greebe]

If you are interested in a 20 Ga Tule I stil have one left for sale and it's priced right, less than parts cost.

Now as to the dilemma i would start with the smoothbore just for the all round versitility. You can shoot shot or bal and harvest just about any game within 100 yards with practice. If I had to have just one gun it would be a 20 bore trade gun.

Thanks. PM Sent.

[waksupi]

You mention that you make these rifles for a living, any chance you have any old beaters that I could rehab for cheap? Shoot even if you had some parts that I could trade you for other stuff or machine shop work that would be great.

Thanks,
Greebe

I don't own any beaters, or production ML's. I have a couple for sale, but they ain't cheap!

[Greebe]

I don't own any beaters, or production ML's. I have a couple for sale, but they ain't cheap!

Thanks. Ain't cheap is more than I can afford right now. LOL

[Greebe]

Wow that is really nice looking. I do not know if I would call that plain, looks just right to me. Is it a .62 smooth or rifled?

I have thought about just getting the lock and making the rest of the rifle. I could machine a smooth barrel from 4140 and make the other brass parts. The hardest brass part would be the trigger guard. I guess I could forge a steel one though which might be easier that casting a brass one since I am not set up yet for foundry work. Perhaps I should just make all steel furniture. I like the looks of these rifles with steel furniture, but I don't think that would be period correct would it?

Do you know if there are any stock patterns out there that could be printed and pasted to the wood blank for roughing out?

I really just want to build one of these rifles with as much homemade parts as feasibly possible. I think that would be pretty cool. If I had the money I would probably just buy a parts kit, but at around $800 that is not going to happen right now until I get steady work again.

Thanks,
Greebe

[Outpost75]

When I lived in New Hampshire I went the .56 cal. flintlock, smoothbore tradegun route and it was OK, but so light that the flimsy barrel really limited it from using heavy charges. I used mostly 50 grs. of 3Fg with 3/4 oz. of shot and patters were like a 28-bore skeet gun. OK up close, but not much beyond 25 yards. Did manage to kill a deer with patched roundball, but it was not a sure killer like my T/C 12-ga. New Englander with .715 patched ball and 120 grs. of 2Fg.

I think the heavier Jaeger style in .54 or larger would be fine. A 20-bore smooth bore would be excellent, a 16-bore if you are looking at it primarily as a shotgun you might shoot ball in. It doesn't necessarily have to be rifled, b ut if so should be slow twist one turn in 6 feet or so is enough for ball. But a tightly patched ball in a smoothbore will give you 4-5" groups at 40 yards, which is adequate for woods hunting.

Let us know what you get and post pictures, love reading this stuff.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Greebe
"..sell your motorcycle " ? Hold on there.. That is getting real close to heretical talk. Would a cowboy sell his horse ? Would a pilot sell his plane ? Would Popeye stop eating spinach ?
You can always run over game with a 2 wheeler but no way can you ride a smokepole anywhere.
Mike in Peru

[Greebe]

When I lived in New Hampshire I went the .56 cal. flintlock, smoothbore tradegun route and it was OK, but so light that the flimsy barrel really limited it from using heavy charges. I used mostly 50 grs. of 3Fg with 3/4 oz. of shot and patters were like a 28-bore skeet gun. OK up close, but not much beyond 25 yards. Did manage to kill a deer with patched roundball, but it was not a sure killer like my T/C 12-ga. New Englander with .715 patched ball and 120 grs. of 2Fg.

I think the heavier Jaeger style in .54 or larger would be fine. A 20-bore smooth bore would be excellent, a 16-bore if you are looking at it primarily as a shotgun you might shoot ball in. It doesn't necessarily have to be rifled, b ut if so should be slow twist one turn in 6 feet or so is enough for ball. But a tightly patched ball in a smoothbore will give you 4-5" groups at 40 yards, which is adequate for woods hunting.

Let us know what you get and post pictures, love reading this stuff.

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of pulling out my Hawkins rifle in .50 and trying to find time to shoot it in the next week or so. I wish that it was a flinter, because it would be more economical to shoot. I just like the flintlocks and from what I have been reading it is easy enough to just use the same powder for your load as you priming charge which would be nice. I wonder if you can get a flintlock to replace the caplock? Then I could use it as a flintlock and then when I have money switch the locks to sell it as a percusion, and use the flintlock for building a new rifle. That way I could get both a Jaeger and a smoothbore at some point in time.

Greebe

[Greebe]

Howdy Greebe
"..sell your motorcycle " ? Hold on there.. That is getting real close to heretical talk. Would a cowboy sell his horse ? Would a pilot sell his plane ? Would Popeye stop eating spinach ?
You can always run over game with a 2 wheeler but no way can you ride a smokepole anywhere.
Mike in Peru

Hehe. Yeah I know that is kind of blasphemous talk. I have a dualsport, and two old street bikes though. One of which has the engine torn down in the rebuild stage. With little kids in the picture I don't find time to ride these days anyways and the upkeep is getting pricey for not using them. You might be able to ride a smokepole down a hill if you wanted to. Might hurt the finish a little though. :mrgreen:

[Greebe]

Sand cast parts aren't nearly as $ as the wax cast versions, and really aren't difficult to make look nice. Track Of The Wolf has both, and should have full sized drawings of various rifles.

Buttplates on early rifles are often 2"+ in width, add some for a cheek piece, and/or cast off, but figure 2-1/2" minimum thickness for your plank, with 3" safer. I probably have some straight grained black walnut that would be suitable.

My barrel is a Colerain, and rifled. IIRC, their Hessian Jaeger barrel is one of the least expensive swamped barrels.

Hey thanks for the advise. Sand cast parts would not be a big deal to me. Finishing brass is easy enough. I will check into the stock drawing at Track and see if they have a Jaeger or something to my liking. I have never made a stock from scratch before, but I think it would be a lot of fun. What would a piece of walnut cost? I am low on funds right now, would you have anything you would take in trade for it?

Thanks,
Greebe

[Greebe]

Btw. Have you guys ever heard of a smoothbore Jaeger? Did they ever make such a thing? Ahh I do not know what to do. I guess that is OK though since I will probably have a few years more to think about it until I have some money to actually start buying parts. Darn economy. Maybe I should sell another firearm to finance this one. The wife told me not to even think about it because anytime I sell a firearm I am sad about it forever. She is right, but me wantie a flintlock...

[Boerrancher]

I can honestly say that I woul be lost with out my northwest trade gun. When I got it a year ago it quickly became my go to gun for hunting here on the farm. As far as accuracy is concerned, I have taken it to two shooting matches. I was the only one at both matches with a smooth bore, so I shot against the rifles. The first match I was in with it I took fourth place. The other I took first place. Let me tell you there was a lot of upset rifle owners. I don't feel a bit handy append with a smoothie

Best wishes

Joe