EAA Witness 9x23 winchester

[gofastman]

Not sure if this is the right place, but here it goes.
Id like to have a witness longslide made to chamber 9x23 Win.

I know some have said you can shoot it out of a 38 super gun with no mods but I'm wondering if this is really safe with full bore 9X23 loads which, acccording to Winchester, can be as high as 55Ksi :shock:

For this project would it be better to start out with a 38 super gun or a 9x19 gun and have it bored?

[ReloaderFred]

The 9x23 Winchester case and the .38 Super case are both the same length, so you're much better off starting with a .38 Super gun, since the round won't fit in the 9mm magazine. I converted one of my .38 Super Witnesses to 9x23 Winchester by simply installing a Nowlin 9x23 barrel and stronger recoil spring. That's all there was to the conversion.

The .38 Super is a straight wall case, while the 9x23 is a tapered case. It will fire in the .38 Super chamber, but the chamber will foul after awhile. The 9x23 case is so strong, it hardly expands at all. Factory loads that have been fired will still drop into a case gauge before sizing, if that tells you anything about the strength of the case.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[gofastman]

I should have said before, I have a 10mm witness, so I would just need a the top half of the gun.
I looked on Nowlin's website but only saw 1911 parts, was your barrel a one-off thing?

[ReloaderFred]

Since you already have the large frame, all you'd need would be a .38 Super slide assembly and magazines. The same holds true for .45 acp. You can use one frame and different slides for the caliber conversions.

I've got Witnesses in .22 LR, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9x25 Dillon, 357 Sig, .38 Super, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 AE and .45 acp. I used a 9mm barrel for my 357 Sig conversion, and a .38 Super barrel for my 9x25 Dillon conversion.

I bought my Nowlin barrel on ebay several years ago, right after the elder Nowlin passed away. They probably don't make Witness barrels anymore, since the ownership of the company passed on down. You might try some searches and see what you come up with.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[whopist]

Here is my Springfield Armory 1911 9mm Luger. Springfield thought the way to go on this Target Model was with a ramped 9mm barrel. That was fine with me because I wanted to convert it to 9x23 Winchester.

I found a Nowlin 9x23 Winchester 6” ramped barrel that even came with a 9x23 Winchester sizing die. It was an easy install. Just put in stronger springs and 38 Super clips and off to the range. I can’t remember but some extractor tuning might be in order

One problem! Factory Winchester 9x23 cartridges were hotter than any of my reloads and would creator the primers and even caused one “pierced primer”. That scared me. An oversized firing pin solved the problem.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/whopist/SArsacc.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/whopist/media/SArsacc.jpg.html)

This is a nice setup. I can shoot 9mm Luger or the more powerful 9x23WIN just by switching barrels, springs, and magazines. I originally planned to cut the 6” barrel down to 5” but all my friends say NO.


You will enjoy the project.
Whopist

[ReloaderFred]

"Most" loading data for 9x23 rounds are with small rifle primers. The case won't rupture, but the primers will.

Here is a link to some good information on loading 9x23: http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html

And here is another one: http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9x23 Winchester&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dougader]

The Winchester manufactured brass is very strong. The Starline brass is plenty strong but not to the same strength as Winchester IME.

My Springfield 9x23 would fire 38 Super fine, but my widebody Para/Caspian 1911 with the Nowlin 9x23 barrel will not chamber the 38 Super.

I always use small rifle primers with my 9x23 loads. The high pressure requires it, although I have seen one commercial loader post that there is no difference between the CCI 550 small pistol magnum primers and the CCI 400 small rifle standard primers.

Good luck with your conversion. It sounds like fun to me.

[JHeath]

When I was looking at the Rock Island .38 Supers, I read they are chambered so that they will take .38 Super and 9x23. The extractor might need to be slightly bent to accommodate one or the other. A reviewer said he had an extractor problem and the factory told him the pistol had previously been set up for a "dimensionally similar" round, and bent it to the right shape.

"Mastiff" shoots 9x23 through a Star Modelo Super A:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?167026-9x23-vs-9mm-largo-horror-stories

And Clark Magnuson (on this forum) made a hobby of re-chambering 9mm Tokarev pistols for 9x23 and running comically hot overloads. Well, at least he made it sound fun.

I think the line between safe/unsafe is really more of a continuum. Like Clint Eastwood said, "There's only what a man can do, and what a man can't do." The farther you get from the prescribed path the more you have/get to depend on your own judgment. That's the great thing about this forum, you get the benefit of a lot of experienced guys who are sailing off the map when they paper patch, beagle moulds, etc. And most of them learned from great old guys in previous generations. It's a great way to learn to depend on yourself.

[IridiumRed]

When I was looking at the Rock Island .38 Supers, I read they are chambered so that they will take .38 Super and 9x23. The extractor might need to be slightly bent to accommodate one or the other. A reviewer said he had an extractor problem and the factory told him the pistol had previously been set up for a "dimensionally similar" round, and bent it to the right shape.

"Mastiff" shoots 9x23 through a Star Modelo Super A:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?167026-9x23-vs-9mm-largo-horror-stories

And Clark Magnuson (on this forum) made a hobby of re-chambering 9mm Tokarev pistols for 9x23 and running comically hot overloads. Well, at least he made it sound fun.

I think the line between safe/unsafe is really more of a continuum. Like Clint Eastwood said, "There's only what a man can do, and what a man can't do." The farther you get from the prescribed path the more you have/get to depend on your own judgment. That's the great thing about this forum, you get the benefit of a lot of experienced guys who are sailing off the map when they paper patch, beagle moulds, etc. And most of them learned from great old guys in previous generations. It's a great way to learn to depend on yourself.

That's the sorta thread that makes my job drop reading it. Pure insanity!! I worry about people firing .38 Super in .38 ACP guns.... but shooting 9x23 Winchester?? That's a REAL ringer when it comes to pressure. And I don't think those old blow back Stars are junk, but .... you couldn't pay me enough to shoot one of those with 9x23 W in it...

Wow!

I have a strong feeling that somehow he and Clark are related. I'm positive though, one of them is gonna blow his hand off someday.... (and there's one of them I'd probably miss reading his crazy stories if he wasn't around)

[JHeath]

That's the sorta thread that makes my job drop reading it. Pure insanity!! I worry about people firing .38 Super in .38 ACP guns.... but shooting 9x23 Winchester?? That's a REAL ringer when it comes to pressure. And I don't think those old blow back Stars are junk, but .... you couldn't pay me enough to shoot one of those with 9x23 W in it...

Wow!

I have a strong feeling that somehow he and Clark are related. I'm positive though, one of them is gonna blow his hand off someday.... (and there's one of them I'd probably miss reading his crazy stories if he wasn't around)

So don't do it. A blowback Star Modelo Super in .38acp would be too rare and valuable to shoot. These are recoil operated 9mm Largos. The loading manual also said Columbus would sail his blowback-operated Santa Maria over the earth's edge. He still has both hands, one is around a Cuban hottie and the other is clinking glasses with Clark on a tropical beach. Back in Spain,

"Priests in black gowns are making their rounds
and binding with briars our joys and desires."