My Suppressed 308 Project : Which Boolit To Use?

[Petander]

I have created a Mini-Monster for subsonic cast loads only (suppressors are all legal and even recommended up here). I´m also making it as small as possible without turning it into a pistol, law-wise.


Starting out:

http://www.markkuland.com/supukiv/extraparts.jpg


"Dawgman´s Special" :

http://www.markkuland.com/supukiv/rainsupuweaver2.jpg


The spring was weak so I made a temporary fix using a piece from .357 brass. Now it has a stronger spring.

http://www.markkuland.com/supukiv/pin.jpg



With a nightsight (not for hunting with this one unless there´s an injured / wounded animal):

http://www.markkuland.com/supukiv/supuair.jpg


It´s not ready yet (stock and some other cosmetic mostly) but now I´d appreciate any help with choosing the mould. I originally planned using cast only, based on my subsonic experiences with other calibers and I´ll stick to that plan. The rifle got done in a week -because I had the time- and I have no mould yet, this is my first 308 ever (no, I´m not exactly a beginner hehe, just no small calibers in my safe yet). It prints something like this with 123 grain FMJ:s , I´m quite surprised about the accuracy in general.

This group was fired in pouring rain tonight using an old Weaver 1-4 at 100 meters. 1050 fps, 7 grains VV N320 and CCI 250 with enlarged (3.5mm) flash holes. I used some Unique Case Lube on the bullets, the barrel wasn´t clean at all.

http://www.markkuland.com/supukiv/supuraingroup.jpg



It´s an older british made rifle called "Midland". I haven´t slugged or measured a thing, I didn´t even check the twist yet. Just shooting FMJ:s for now, mostly subsonic. After I found the 1050 fps load it´s been going surprisingly good, my idea was to be able to hit a clay pigeon every time at 100 yard, not much asked but sometimes enough for a subsonic rifle.

With a proper cast projectile this will get much better.

Now, what would you recommend? I generally like heavy boolits but it seems that I´d better stick to a well known recipe with this one, no matter what weight. This won´t be a 45-70 anyway. ;) This will also be the smallest caliber I ever made a cast boolit for. 1050 fps max.


So, my cast 308 loads will not be for any big game hunting, just subsonic accurate practise loads (and maybe for fox size critters). 308 is moose legal with normal loads over here but I got better tools for that.


Thanks in advance,


Markku

[Buckshot]

...........Naturally I'm going to suggest the heaviest cast 30 cal out there and that would be the Lyman 311284. Cast of WW alloy it should run about 217grs or a bit more.

When I saw the firing pin I thought, how in the heck did a Springfield get to Finland? :-). Nice looking setup! That'd land you in jail here, unless liscenced. Just like a machine gun.

Then too there are the Whisper cartridges here. Very small cases (smallest Whisper being the 30M1 carbine case with a 168gr bullet I think) firing jacketed slugs to 220grs.

............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

It´s an older british made rifle called "Midland". I haven´t slugged or measured a thing, I didn´t even check the twist yet. Just shooting FMJ:s for now, mostly subsonic. After I found the 1050 fps load it´s been going surprisingly good, my idea was to be able to hit a clay pigeon every time at 100 yard, not much asked but sometimes enough for a subsonic rifle.

With a proper cast projectile this will get much better.

Now, what would you recommend? Thanks in advance, Markku

Markku,

I think that you ought to both slug the bore and then use some method to look at your throat before any molds should be persued. I have no idea where your dimensions are to even guess.

[HotGuns]

Im interested in a heavy bullet mold too.

I've got a .300 WHisper on an AR-15 platform. With it I shoot a 220 grain Sierra Match at 1050 FPS.

The .300 uses a .223 case with the neck cut off, then it is sized in a die that necks it down to a .30 caliber. Very efficent and quite.

I've been using 4227 powder. It works to cycle that AR action. The beauty of the .300 Whisper is that the existing bolt and magazines work, no modification is needed so one can have a subsonic rifle with a 30 round mag.

I built the suppressor myself. Jumping through the hoops to make it legal took 4 months and a 200 fee.

[Petander]

OK , now I got some boolits to try /slug / measure /shoot.

This short 308 neck gives some headache, I don´t want to push the boolits too deep in the case to possibly mess the lube and powder.

Another thing to look at with the design I guess.

[Petander]

Here:

A Lyman 30-30 FN, an Ed Harris spirepoint and the 314299.

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/rpvalut1.jpg

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/rpvalutesttable.jpg


All sized .310, I loaded them as long as possible. No resizing, one charge for all using the 7 grain VV N320 / CCI 250 / 3.5 mm flashholes.


Three rounds per load. First, one 314299 from a clean barrel to see that I´m on paper at 50 meters, it´s the hole to the right. Then three more rounds av. 870 fps.

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/314299testtarget50m.jpg

Here´s the FN Lyman (sorry,can´t find the exact type now) :

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/3030fntestgroup50m.jpg

And here´s Ed Harris (not sure about the brand ) :

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/edharristestgroup50m.jpg


Much better than I expected really, must shoot 100 meters tomorrow... All these obviously beat my jacketed subsonic loads right away, now I really really neeeeed a mold. A double is minimum, preferably a quad. This is fun and cheap and easy practise stuff, oh boy. Also takes a fox or a treerat nice and easy.

Finn sent me the boolits, a million thanks. There´s still some other designs to try and I will get the exact mold types right in this post later on. Right now the long borerider type looks and feels the best... or any of these in fact.

Shuld I pay more attention to the short 308 neck? I mean, to mix the lube and the powder isn´t included in my plan. [smilie=p:

[Petander]

Here is 299, what do you think?

http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/314299splitcase.jpg

[Finn45]

Great! Flatnose is Lyman 311041 and spirepoint is from Leftoverdj's group buy Lee C312-155-2R.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to throw a little rain on the parade. I've done considerable shooting for many years with a Sionics suppressor on several types of rifles including numerous .30 cal rifles (.30 carbine, 30-30, .308, .223 and .22 Hornet). It appears yours is about the same size as the Sionics. The rain on the parade is this; how readily is your suppressor disassembled and if it is how often do you clean it? The carbon from the entapped gas (even with the small charges used) will build up and get hard very quickly) will prevent easy disassembly. Further, the bullet lube will spin off the bullets and also build up much more quickly in the expansion chamber. I tried the hard wax lubes thinking they wouldn't spin off but at subsonic velocities I got severe leading. With the softer lubes the suppressor was a pain to clean out. The Lyman 311299 worked best for me in .308 with a 1-10" barrel over 8ish to 10ish (don't remember the exact charge) of Unique. The shortest barrel I used was 18.5" in .308. In .30 carbine with cast boolits it took longer for the lube to build up inside as the twist was 1-16" and even at 1850 fps the smaller carbine bullets didn't seem to throw the lube off as much inside the suppressor. With cast boolits in subsonic .22 Hornet loads there wasn't a problem. What Lube are you using on the 311299 pictured and have you had any leading in the throat?

With the sionics on 30-30 or larger cartridges with faster twist barrels I switched to jacketed bullets to avoid having to dismount the suppressor to clean the lube out so often. It would smoke like hell when a full power load was fired if not cleaned out first. Cast boolits might work out better in the shorter barrel you appear to be using. Only one way to find out! Just be cognisent of the cleaning aspect.

I have picked up a 21' TC Contender 30-30 barrel and will mount the Sionics on it when I return. It should be just the ticket for confusing the heck out of coyotes with 125 gr Noslers. Sorry to say that cast boolits don't work well in everything.

Larry Gibson

[Petander]

Larry,

thank you for the good points. My reason for going cast in this subsonic project is simple: accuracy.

I haven´t shot enough cast in this rifle to find out about burn/ lead/ lube residue yet. But I´m well aware of possible problems.

I have a similar suppressor in a 45-70 and it has seen lots of cast boolits during the last four years or so, sub and full . My way to clean the suppressor has always been a handful of full house loads, just shoot it hot enough to burn it all away. It has worked for now - and that suppressor can not be disassembled at all, it´s a closed construction . Just take it off when hot and let dry. In case I "shoot it out" I´ll get another one, they seem to last a long time.

These are the suppessors I use, also got one in 300 WinMag (no cast,obviously):

http://guns.connect.fi/rs/Reflex.html


If residue looks like a problem I´ll modify this one to be "disassembleable" ( is that a word? :?: ) This one has a few holes in the rear , sealed by a supporting bushing so the suppressor aligns itself with the barrel and the holes do not leak when it´s mounted on the barrel. Sionics has the same system on some suppressors, right? If I take the sealing ring out I can shoot all the crap out of the suppressor... just need some protection for the scope / myself. Compressed air is better of course. I always spray oil inside the suppressor after it has cooled down and shoot normally the next time. Some smoke, not too much though.

Right now I´m looking at a suppressed 22 LR rifle which has had a suppressor on permanently for at least ten years. Lots of all kind of ammo, no problems, no real cleaning either. Well, a 22 LR is another story of course but there´s still lots of corroding stuff around.


I agree, there´s only one way to find out - and I like it. :D

[Larry Gibson]

Petander

Quite interesting site. Appears they use Maxim type baffles which have proven to be as effective or more so than any other type in my tests. I have also worked with other types of suppressors. Some are sealed and some aren't. It is my belief that some work fine with cast and some don't as you have found out depending on the cartridge. I should have been a little clearer in my last post on that. The cartridge really defines the barrel twist. The slower twist barrels do not seem to cause the severe lube spin off inside the suppressor. Thus I had very good success with the .30 carbine and you've had good success with the 45-70. Come to think of it, with the 1-10 or 12" twist barrels most of the really heavy lube spin off was with loads loads in the 1800-2000 fps range. Of course the RPMs (i.e. centrifical force) was greater than with subsonic loads.

I cleaned the Sionics most often by dismounting from the barrel and soaking it in carburater cleaner for a couple hours. When "dry" I would blow a butane torch flame through it for a few seconds to burn out the fumes. Other wise an impressive flame resulted on the first shot.

Not that I lost any sleep over it last night but I got to codgitating about that 30-30 Contender barrel. I have a Lyman 31141 HP mold that I might cast some bullets out of say pure lead of a 1-30 tin lead alloy. At 1050 fps I already know they give good expansion out to 100 yards and 'thump" much harder than a plain flat meplat. I have killed a couple coyotes with them. The 10" .22 Hornet Contender with the suppressor on it is a hoot with Lymans 225315 (I think) at 1050 fps on squirrels, starlings and crows. The 55 gr cast bullet with the meplat is more effective than .22LRs. The M1 Carbine with Lymans 105 gr 32 H&R swc at 1850 fps was also very effective when calling coyotes and 2 or more come it at the same time. Without the muzzle blast when one is shot the others will mostly stand still or run over to the shot one to see what is wrong. The sonic crack does not seem to disturb them near as much as the muzzle blast. The suppressor gives you the edge for follow up shots. I could ramble on about some other hunting experiences and tests I've run with suppressors (sonic and subsonic) but time doesn't allow for now.

Larry Gibson

[HotGuns]

Petander...

Something to think about if you are shooting the .308 with light loads.

The case is big enough that light loads often display erractic groups due the the position of the powder in the case. That was the main reason for the devolopment of the .300 Whisper which in my experience is a very accurate round. The .300 WHisper case is small enough and the bullet seated into it is long enough that there is very little space in the case for the powder to move.

A freind of mine has a factory built Remington .308 with an integral suppressor, it makes a very cool looking rifle. Unfortunatley, his accuracy with it is less than desirable. He finally ended up using custom cases which are lathe turned but have a very small powder chamber in them and the accuracy with those is great.

As a comparison, my .300 Whisper will shoot 220 grains Sierra's into one hole all day long at 50 yards. At 100 it will do anywhere from 5/8 to 3/4 which is really about as good as I can shoot from a good rest. That is with cases cut from a .223 that I made myself and it is easily done.

JD Jones experimented with the suppressed .308 for government use. It was he that developed the .300 Whisper concept after he tried jsut about everything in the .308s including filling the cases with epoxy and drilling smaller chambers in them and machining special cases. He finally gave up on that and experimented with various casing sizes before he settled on the Whisper concept.

You may not be able to achieve the best results unless you use a case filler orf some sort to keep the powder burn as efficent as possible.
Anyhow...its something to think about...

[Petander]

300 Whisper is probably the optimal .30 sub round, I agree and I understand why.

Choosing 308 is just another twist in my casting career, when/if I get respectable loads and my own boolits done I´ll know much better where a 308 can go. I like the ability to use full power 308 loads any given moment,too. My aim was a quiet plinker load with "Minute Of Claybird" -accuracy and a compact traffic-injured moose cleanup rifle, all in one gun.

Another rifle in 300 Whisper isn´t an impossible thought at all after I get settled down a little on all this.


There´s actually another quite similar rifle project already starting, not sure whether it will be a 35 or a 30... [smilie=1:

[felix]

If you already have the "official" 300 wisper, why not go with the 30BR for the next 30 caliber rifle? 16-18 twist will allow 110-120 boolits for a higher velocity, should that be desired. Though, I doubt you would want to shoot this one below the speed of sound. ... felix

[Petander]

Sorry Felix, I wasn´t clear enough: got no 300 Whisper , not yet.

That would be more of a high tech project in many ways, I´m going "KISS" here with realistic expectations about 308 cast sub 100 meter potential using relatively cheap components. This 308 won´t shoot one hole all day with any load or boolit - or shooter. :roll: Again, got other rifles for that kind of accuracy but not subsonic.

In case my 35 Whelen project begins I´ll start another thread. That will be a compact Mauser-based brush gun as well... if I find a heavy mold to start with. Otherwise there´s a chance to go Whisper-route.

[Buckshot]

............Petander, here's something I was messing with awile back. The Lyman 311284 @ 217grs in the 7.62x39. I have a small ring Mauser chambered for it. The objective was just to accurately launch a very heavy slug accurately.

You can see how deep the boolit had to be seated to feed fromt he magazine, and also how well it engraved in the leade. The seated boolit in the case next to it is the Lee C312-155 2R, your compadre Finn45 has as a 6 cavity.

http://www.fototime.com/4799AF5EDCE12F2/standard.jpg
It was superbly accurate and IIRC the top velocity I'd obtained before moving on to something else was just over 1150 fps.

..............Buckshot

[Petander]

Buckshot,

that´s good news! :-)

I just happen to have a 311284 double coming in one of these days, found it up here in a store , listed with a strange number but we got it figured out somehow. The owner hasn´t found it yet (moving or something) but it´s obviously somewhere...

[Buckshot]

............Petender, very cool. In case you didn't know, the 311284 was one of the first 5 Lyman moulds ever made to carry the new gas check thing. It was designed about 1905 for use with National Guard units for practice to 600 yards. It's a bit of a dated design with that scraper groove in front of the top drive band (be carefull it doesn't bend there when sizing).

It also doesn't carry much lube (which a person MIGHT need) for high velocity, but other then that, it's a well balanced design. I like it alot.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Buckshot,

Why not machine that scrapper band portion of the mould out? Also I haven't found the 311284 not to carry enough lube in all the rifles I've shot it in and also at high velocities. It's one of my favorite 30 cal bullets.

Joe

[PatMarlin]

I wish my 311284 cast to a bigger diameter. I've been flatening the nose and using it in the Marlin 30-30.. :Fire:

Is the 311284 the biggest/heaviest .30 cal bullet mold out there?

[Petander]

284 is the biggest that I know about.

Waiting for the molds... meanwhile I put a slightly different stock on the mini-rifle:


http://www.markkuland.com/supukivcast/duomarlinmid.jpg



Marlin is on the left, obviously.