New 9mm powder?

[Dewey606]

I just purchased and cast from a Lee TL 356 six cavity 9mm 124gr mold. They dropped at .356 and weigh about 130grains. Since they are heavier than expected I am looking for data. I have Lyman's 47th, 49th, Lee Modern Manual 2nd ed. and the latest Lyman cast manual. Plus of course online data. Most seem to jump from 124/125 to 140/147 gr. I know I should reduce, but by how much? That is, reducing by using the data for a heavier bullet being safer than using the lesser weight boolit. My main concern is safety and low pressure. These will be shot from numerous different handguns and possibly my 9mm AR carbine. I have used commercial cast 124gr lead in the AR before with no leading, just dirty and smoky. The powders I have available are TiteGroup, Unique and IMR 700X. Tite Group can increase in pressure pretty quick, so I was thinking of using Unique. Any suggestions before I take a stab at it? Ingots I used are reportedy COWW and seem ok. I have used the same batch of lead for other calibers, 45, 38, 41 Mag with no problems. I do have a Chrony and plan on testing this batch from a Smith & Wesson 5943.

[joec]

I use Universal Clays or plain Clays over Unique personally as both are supper clean. My favorite though with Cast bullets is HP-38 in both 9mm, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I also have and have used Titegroup, Bullseye, AA #2, Unique and trying to find some Winchester WSP or WSF to try in it.

[w0fms]

Mine dropped right at 130gr+/-1-ish gr also (2R mold). I used 125 gr data and worked up.. no issues. Turned out to be accurate and work very well for me. I used a fairly light load of W231, I sized to .357 which was appropriate for my case. I don't want to rely on memory so I'm not going to provide my load or OAL.

But in any case that extra 5 grains is, what 4%? It's not a linear relationship but if you are starting from a minimum load.. that's usually more than 10% down from the SAAMI max anyway.

I'd say Unique for what you have available, but what do I know? ;) I'd also work it to be reliable on the pistol and then mess with the carbine. You don't want to go under a minimum, obviously in a Carbine.. or be VERY diligent for squibs if you do... But a good cycler on a pistol should be a good starting point for a rifle...

I should add mine was a little rough from Midway.. so I "leemented" it. I suspect that is why mine dropped 0.3575" rounds. Probably I would have been right at .356 if I didn't do the polishing. Oh, and that I got the non-TL version, too.. so that is a slight difference. I do TL these but also work in some homemade lube into the traditional groove is that basically "Emmert's" with beeswax to stiffen it up added and a little synthetic 2 cycle oil to color it. It works VERY well.

[Dewey606]

Thanks. So are you using the Lee Alox to tumble lube boolits with traditional grooves? Does that work well? I tumble with the straight out of bottle Lee Alox.

[zomby woof]

Red Dot, WSF

[Shiloh]

Unique and AA #5

Shiloh

[silverjay]

I run 5.0 grains of unique under that same boolit with recluse Alox recipe. Cycles what I shoot fine and groups well. I started at 4.5 and worked up.

[aspangler]

Try start 4.3 max 4.5 red dot. Start 5.3 max 5.5 unique. Start 5.6 max 6.2 Acc #5. Top loads are all just over 1100 fps. I load 4.4 red dot under the Lee TL 124 2r cast over coww air cooled and have had no problems at all. I lube them with the Lee mule snot and have had NO leading with 50 yard groups of 2 inches or less.

[w0fms]

You can TL any type of boolit, yes.. even non TL. I decided to also manually put a little wax in the groove. The combo worked great for 9mm. I'm tempted to start doing the same in a TL-style-boolit 452 Lee that I can't seem to completely get leading out of (it's very minor, though.. no work to clean out at an end of a session). 9MM is a fast-ish round so I did both. I picked the non-TL LEE 125-2R based on reviews and the shape of the bullet for feeding (and availability of the mold in this currently crazy world) despite not having a lubrisizer. The thing I hacked up to put a little wax in the grooves works well enough for me even though it's a little slow. I find that 45/45/10 works slightly better than straight Alox so I'll recommend that. Adding a little lube in the grooves improved it even more. I tried it w/o and got leading. Then tried Water dropped.. much less.. water dropped, TL'ed 45/45/10 and then a little lube in the groove.. better than factory... very nice accurate and no leading...

[BubbaJon]

I just got mine (RF not TL) and cast a couple hunnerd last night. Still a learning curve - using a bottom pour Lee pot and get way too many where the flow fills the hole then spreads rather than go in. Mine are dropping at 124 gn with a mix close to Lyman #2. I tried to pan lube a batch and only about a quarter of 'em took to the lube - the groove is pretty shallow. Looks like I'll be dipping in Alox/Mineral Spirits.
Quickload says 4.5 gn of Unique should be a peppy and safe load giving about 1,000 fps from a 4" barrel.

[jonp]

Of the three you have id use unique but I have never tried 700x. With that boolit i've used universal, unique, promo, 231 and bullseye. I have not found it to be fussy but had the best results with 231.

[smithgar3840]

+1 on the universal. I use it in 45, 9mm, 380, 38 special ect. I can usually find a decent load with it. I shoot a lot of 28ga shotgun and with the shortages I'm trying to consolidate as much as possible and buy larger quantities.

[jonp]

Except he does not have universal which works very well. He has titegroup, unique and 700x

[winelover]

In 9 mm, I've used Bullseye, Bluedot, HS-5 (discontinued), AA#7, to name a few. However, I always go back to Unique. I like it's versatility for other calibers, I load for, and because it reduces the chances for double loads in small cases like the parabellum.

Winelover

[Char-Gar]

My first choice is Bullseye, if you have it or can find it. Unique and AA5 have also given me good results in the 9mm Luger cartridge.

[Crosbyman]

I use Herco.

[Dewey606]

I've loaded some with 4.3 grains of Unique. I am more ceoncerned now with seating depth and OAL, as I can't seem to find a definitive one for this boolit. I seated them so the ridge closest to the buulet nose is mostly out of the case. With the narrow profile of this bullet they look like RN SWCs. My concern is seating too deep and increasing pressure too much. It is well below max OAL, but of course, max gives room for much larger bullets in 9mm. I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die to remove the case mouth bell and apply a very light crimp to keep the bullets from walking. I guess we will see what happens when I Chrony them and see how they feed. I will try to get some pics posted.

[jonp]

It is interesting what everyone has but he has titegroup, 700x and Unique

[ROCKET]

I use w231 or hp 38 in about every pistol caliber. It just works. It meters real well for me and it performs flawlessly. I little dirty but that's why we have hoppe's #9 ;)

Out of the 3 you mentioned I would use Unique. Start @ 4grains and work your way up in .01 increments.. I think the max published is 4.5 if I am not mistaken.

[Ed_Shot]

Blue Dot or Promo/RedDot

[Vinne]

I asked the question: The bullets I cast come out at 130 gr. for my 9mm. What load should I use with your Power Pistol powder? Thanks


I got this answer: Attached are some recipes to consider. I suggest using the 124/125 gr lead bullet data, but be sure and use the starting load. Thanks for your note.

Ben Amonette
Technical Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 5:10 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form

9mm Luger

115 gr lead bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

115 gr jacketed bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

124/125 gr lead
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

147 gr lead
Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

147 gr jacketed
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

Note: Start with the minimum charge wt. Reload just a few and be sure they will properly cycle the action of your pistol before reloading a quantity.

[Dewey606]

76165
The OAL varies a little due to misc. cases having slightly different dimensions, but the pics shows the average.

[winelover]

I asked the question: The bullets I cast come out at 130 gr. for my 9mm. What load should I use with your Power Pistol powder? Thanks


I got this answer: Attached are some recipes to consider. I suggest using the 124/125 gr lead bullet data, but be sure and use the starting load. Thanks for your note.

Ben Amonette
Technical Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 5:10 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form

9mm Luger

115 gr lead bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

115 gr jacketed bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

124/125 gr lead
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

147 gr lead
Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

147 gr jacketed
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

Note: Start with the minimum charge wt. Reload just a few and be sure they will properly cycle the action of your pistol before reloading a quantity.

I for one, don't agree with this "expert" data! Notice how the maximum loads for j-words are almost always higher than the same bullet weight for lead. Particularly, in the case of Unique and Power Pistol. Every cast boolet shooter knows lead generates less pressure than jacketed, when all other components are identical.

Winelover:popcorn:

[ku4hx]

I asked the question: The bullets I cast come out at 130 gr. for my 9mm. What load should I use with your Power Pistol powder? Thanks

Lyman's Third Edition Pistol and Revolver Handbook lists cast boolit Power Pistol loads as 5.1 to 5.7 for 120 grain, 4.8 to 5.4 for 125 grain and 4.1 to 4.6 for 147 grain. 130 grain loads can be derived via careful, judicious interpolation.

My personal best for 124 grain cast boolits is 5.5 grains Power Pistol. This load, worked up in my guns, has proven to be safe, reliable and accurate.

[ku4hx]

Every cast boolet shooter knows lead generates less pressure than jacketed, when all other components are identical.

I tend to agree with that, but every time I talk to Ramshot I'm told lead boolits generate higher pressure. They've got updated data coming out soon and that data will apparently be more comprehensive. Specifically I asked them about cast loads with True Blue for 44 Special and 10mm. But in the course of the conversation, we touched on other calibers: 9mm, 38 Special, 40 S&W and etc. In each case, different techs have stated lead caused higher pressure in their lab when all other variables were held constant.

I have neither the desire nor the equipment to contest that so I'll just keep doing what I've been doing since the early '70s. Start with published loads and work up carefully.

[Dewey606]

I almost always stick with Lyman's, first 47th and now 49th edition, as they tend to be fairly conservative on the loads. I like their more careful starting loads vs a blanket generic load reduced by 10%, as from IMR's published data for instance. I also use LEE 2nd ed Modern Reloading Manual to provide additional data. I would like to obtain a Sierra 5th ed because I hear they use actual firearms instead of just test barrels in a lab. That should provide more real world data. Can anyone confirm this as far as Sierra using actual firearms for their data? And does it state what firearm for the published loads they used?

[Dewey606]

Chrony results are in. For my above described and pictured load. Avg velocity was 999.04fps, high of 1011, low of 992.9. They were quite accurate. All rounds fed and functioned well with zero malfunctions. During numerous attempts, the slide locked back on empty mag every time. I think I found a keeper.