black powder shotgun loads

[duke76]

anybody here load black powder for shotgun shells? if so what do you use ? amount of black powder. FF or FFF or FFFF and how much shot, and what hulls? thanks Todd

[nitroproof]

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Here's a link to the best explanation of BP shotgun cartridges you will find.

NEVER, EVER use FFFF except in flintlock priming pans... my gosh you'll kill yourself :holysheep

Craig

[Hellgate]

Duke,
I have loaded and shot about three thousand BP shotshells in Cowboy Action matches with various loads & hulls. Basically, you can use just about any combination of powder, wads, & shot that gives a decent crimp and PATTERN. I have two main loads depending on the shotgun and target I am shooting at. We use both stationary and knockdown targets with an occasional pop up flyer (clay bird, charcoal briquette or can of soda). For a light load on stationary targets I use about 7/8oz shot over 55 grs (VOLUME) of FF, FFF, APP, Pyro-P or ,Pyro-RS and whatever wad will fit. In most hulls (Remington compression formed STS, Club, R-P Blue, or WW AA) a white AA plastic wad is fine. For a full load for knockdowns (3 drams+1 1/8oz shot) of 82grs FFF or FF, Pyro etc. (NOT 777) I use a AA wad with the "legs" cut out. I use those loads in any gun with chokes. If the gun is cut down or CYL/CYL I use a steel shot cup slit twice and a plastic gas seal OP wad which gives a modified choke pattern from a cylinder bore. Feel free to PM or Email me for details.
To pattern your gun barrels is simple. Determine the range you are going to shoot and set out a cardboard box or an IPSC target with a sheet of freezer paper stapled to it and place a mark for an aiming point. You may be surprised where your gun barrel actually throws shot. If you get donut patterns you need less powder or more shot. The heavy loads with steel shot wads shoot tight patterns.

[northmn]

I used to own and hunt with a couple of old original 12 ga BP double hammer shotguns that were a lot of fun. Finally decided to retire both as wall hangers. Liked them better than muzzleloaders as they were easier to unload at the end of the day and no less challenge. The best cases are the straight walled ones. I used the cheap Federal cases as I could pick them up by the 100's at a local range and load them once or twice and get rid of them. They now sell brass cases if you want to go authentic or you can try for paper. I used plastic due to the no cost factor. These are the true dram equivalent laods like marked on the old cartridge boxes. A dram is 27.5 grains so that three drams is 82.5 grains. I used 2f some liked 1f. Load about 1 1/8 of shot and use paper card wads and felt fillers to take up space in between for a good crimp. Or pack in an old wasps nest, but the cards are better. A good short cut is to set your powder measure to about 3 drams and use the same volume shot which will be close enough to 1 1/8 oz. Works in a muzzle loader too. I used the star crimps but you can cut off the cases about 1/4 inch and use a roll crimp. You can get a good roll crimper from Ballistic Products or Midway that works in a drill. If you want heavier loads you can use new cases and roll crimps as they take less space. About the only advice I can give hunting with a BP shotgun is that I liked to use a little heavier shot as the velocities are lower than a modern gun, usually under 1200 fps. I used 6's for Ruffed grouse and found them to be fine. You can of course play with the laod variations just like a modern from 1oz to 1 1/4. Bp takes up a lot of room. Most original 12 gas were shot with 1 to 1/18 oz of shot. The 10 used the 1 1/4. They are a lot of fun, good shooting have fun.

Northmn

[Joel Lehman]

I load for a 16 guage Belgian hammer double made in the 1880's. It has solid steel barrels. I use Magtech brass cases.

My load is very similar to what I load in my muzzleloader smoothbores. I use 80 grains of Goex 2 or 3 F with 1 1/4 oz shot. My load test is to have a good pattern and have the # 8 shot penetrate both sides of a soup can at 25 yards. The muzzleloaders like the 3 F and the double likes 2 F.

I do not use a fiber filler wad, just 4 overshot wads , shot and 1 overshot wad on top held in place with white Elmer's glue. The patterns in my muzzleloaders were better without fiber wads, so I loaded the brass shells the same way. A 12 guage cardboard wad is a tight fit in a 16 guage brass case. I did very well on doves with the old double this past season.

Joel Lehman, Austin TX

[northmn]

V.M Starr used to preach that better pattersn were given without fiber wads in a muzzleloading shotgun. Never tried it in a breechloader except with heavier shot loads. Joel I am surprised you can get 1 1/4 oz in a 16 with black powder as I had some problems with the 12 gauge with that load, although looking back I think it was the cases. Do the Magtechs have a lot more capacity than plastics? I have a Steven 325 16 ga that has double hammers and is itching to be shot with black powder loads.

Northmn

[Joel Lehman]

Yes, the Magtechs have greater case capacity. Also, I do not use a fiber wad, so there is plenty of room for shot.

[Bigjohn]

I recently bought a magazine "Guns of the Old WEST" #56 Winter 2008 issue. Page 12 starts an article by Mike Beliveau on 'Reloading Shotshells'.

While this article reduces the process to it's most basic; it outlines some good processes and reasons. If you cannot find a copy over there; I have just scanned it to my shooting files and could email a copy.

His methods are very simular to the method I use to reload for a "I. HOLLIS & Sons" SXS 12g Hammer gun with what I believe to be "Wire wound" barrels.

Upon reading this article; I have picked up a few points to improve my loading.

IMHO, plastic wads could lead to you having to scrub out a lot of plastic residue; due to my belief, I only use fibre wads for the BP loads.

Best of luck,

John.

[KCSO]

Having had the privlidge to converse with Mr. Starr on occasion and having bought some of his guns and tooling I can offer a couople of opinions. First in a FLINTLOCK you do not need a cushion wad and said wad will be detrimental to your pattern. The flintlock vents enouugh that there is no hard shock on the wad column. In a percussion gun a lot depends on the bore and the type of precussion system, is it vented how restricted are the nipples ect.

Now on to the cartridge guns... Brass shotshells and paper shells are whole differnt animals. n a brass case I will use from 75 to 90 grains of FFG or FG depending on brand. I will seat a hard card wad over the powder and then at least a 1/2" cushion wad. Shot from 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 oz and a thin card or IF you can get them a cork wad glued in with Elmers glue and lightly crimped in a hand crimper. Federal Paper hulls are prefered for paper shot loads, but yo can use trimmed plastic 3" shells and roll crimp them. You need to realize that the heat of B/P will make the crimp hard and loads in plastic are pretty much throw away's. In plastic you won't build an super turkey loads as they are designed for smokless and don't have the powder space. I load 70-75 grains of FFg and 1- 1 1/8 oz of shot and roll crimp at 2 5/8" in deference to some of my older guns. I have crimped with a 2 3/4" shell and a folded crimp but I tend not to as then these shells are only good in the gns with the 2 3/4" chamber. You need to experiment a little but if you have a good gun with the chokes as supplied in the early days, say ful and mod or full and full. these loads will kill a turkey at 35-40 yards and are good for any game bird to at least 35. I currently shoot a Jp Sauer double and a Forhand double in B/P catridge, both with fine twist barrels. Both guns have shot hundreds of trouble free rounds and have killed a ton of game. I am sneaking out early this afternoon with the Forehand to go rabbit hunting and I KNOW if I see one I will be eating fresh rabbit later.

Go for it.

[Newtire]

I recently bought a magazine "Guns of the Old WEST" #56 Winter 2008 issue. Page 12 starts an article by Mike Beliveau on 'Reloading Shotshells'.

While this article reduces the process to it's most basic; it outlines some good processes and reasons. If you cannot find a copy over there; I have just scanned it to my shooting files and could email a copy.

His methods are very simular to the method I use to reload for a "I. HOLLIS & Sons" SXS 12g Hammer gun with what I believe to be "Wire wound" barrels.

Upon reading this article; I have picked up a few points to improve my loading.

IMHO, plastic wads could lead to you having to scrub out a lot of plastic residue; due to my belief, I only use fibre wads for the BP loads.

Best of luck,

John.Hi John. Do you think I might get a copy of that article emailed to me? Newtire@aol.com

[John Boy]

IMHO, plastic wads could lead to you having to scrub out a lot of plastic residue;Another Urban Legend!
I've shot cases, probably 15-20, 3 dram square loads of BP shot shells for Cowboy Action charged with plastic wads. Tubes plugged and soaked with hot tap water & Dawn, drain the 'snot', a stainless bore brush run down the tubes a couple of times - and then a wad of paper towel on the end of the brush. Be sure to wear sunglasses when looking down the tubes! [smilie=1:

[KeithL]

I recently bought a magazine "Guns of the Old WEST" #56 Winter 2008 issue. Page 12 starts an article by Mike Beliveau on 'Reloading Shotshells'.

While this article reduces the process to it's most basic; it outlines some good processes and reasons. If you cannot find a copy over there; I have just scanned it to my shooting files and could email a copy.

His methods are very simular to the method I use to reload for a "I. HOLLIS & Sons" SXS 12g Hammer gun with what I believe to be "Wire wound" barrels.

Upon reading this article; I have picked up a few points to improve my loading.

IMHO, plastic wads could lead to you having to scrub out a lot of plastic residue; due to my belief, I only use fibre wads for the BP loads.

Best of luck,

John.


Mike Bellivue posts videos on Youtube as Duelist1954. He has three on there about different ways toload BP shells.

[Newtire]

I have the roll crimper from BPSand Precision. The BPI makes a squared off looking roll but the Precision makes a nice rounded crimp. A shot of WD up inside the head every 5 loads or so slicks up the operation. You can fit a bit more shot into a roll crimped shell & they give lots lower pressures. Blown patterns? Another wives tale.

[Squeeze]

Ive shot some BP muzzleloader shotguns. all that "plastic fouling" in a barrel is old outdated from al old plastic formula they used to use. Now wads and sabots come in a polymer that basically wont foul a barrel.

[Col4570]

I load as follows for my two 12 Gauge Hammerguns with 2 1/2" Chambers.2 1/2 Drams 3f (one dram = 27 1/2 Grains).a Fibre Wad with a Card each side of it,1 Oz of Shot,an over shot Card.A good load that won me a Silver Medal last year.
I use a Roll Over Tool to hold the Shot in.I use any 2 3/4" Plastic Cases and cut them off at the Star Crimp Line this gives me the case length when discharged.The Powder I use is Vesuvit L C,a good quality Chzech Black Powder.I found that I was able to reduce the Powder Charge from 3Drams to 2 1/2 drams since the Vesuvit L C.is more powerfull compared to previous powders I have used.I never use Plastic Wads for Black Powder and have made my own Fibre ones since 1975.
For my 12 Gauge Muzzle loaders I use the same Powder Charge but I up the Shot charge to 1 1/4 Oz.Hope this info is of use to you in your quest.

[Newtire]

I have used the cut off shotcups & never had any plastic fouling. Will have to see if I can find a wad to fit the bore, plastic wise over powder & see if it works. Have an 11 and a 12 gauge. . Good stuff to know.

[Irascible]

Is 1F applicable in 12 gauge reloads for knock down targets in cowboy action shooting?

[Irascible]

Bumpity bump

[swathdiver]

NEVER, EVER use FFFF except in flintlock priming pans... my gosh you'll kill yourself

This is not necessarily true. 4F can be used in .28 and .32 caliber rifles and in cap and ball sixguns. The historical method for using 4F in a sixgun was 1/10th of projectile weight. Today's 4F is very similar in power to 1860s Hazard's Pistol Powder.

When one uses 4F in a .31 pocket revolver, now they know why these were the most popular guns during the percussion era.

The NEVER EVER stuff comes from the risk adverse and ignorant lawyers who convinced folks to promote these phony rules.

[toot]

I for one also think that plastic wad or shot cup fowling is an old wife's tale- because why don't we get any in our high pressure smoke less shotguns??

[peter72]

I for one also think that plastic wad or shot cup fowling is an old wife's tale- because why don't we get any in our high pressure smoke less shotguns??
Interesting point.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[toot]

I don't see why you couldn't use 1f grade black powder, the G was added to denote grafite to keep the colonels from sticking together. after all in the day it was the powder used in guns .720 diameter ( 12) gauge or larger. so why not now?

[wap41]

all I ever used in my ML shotguns is plastic shot cups and never saw any sign of plastic fowling in barrels

[ogre]

I believe that the G was added to denote glazed not graphite. Sometimes during the glazing process graphite is added.

[LabGuy]

I was taught that "G" stood for Grade. Fine Grade = FG, Fine Fine Grade = FFG,...

[BPJONES]

I for one also think that plastic wad or shot cup fowling is an old wife's tale- because why don't we get any in our high pressure smoke less shotguns??

Well, it is very common in modern smokeless guns. A lot of people maybe just aren't seeing it, aren't paying attention to it or maybe the guns haven't seen a lot of rounds. I have a large collection of double barrel shotguns and I have seen it in several guns. In fact, I just finished cleaning the bores of a recently acquired double barrel and it was a real pain removing the plastic fouling. The worse part is, beneath the fouling there is pitting that could not be seen until the fouling was removed.There is a discussion right now on a double shotgun forum about plastic fouling in modern guns. It has been discussed several times. One of the topics discussed was exactly what I just experienced. Plastic fouling that is not removed on a regular basis can create pitting if moisture managed to get under the plastic and is left to rust. Of course the pitting is less likely to happen if the bores are chrome lined. But the plastic fouling is still there. Just go onto doublegunshop forum and ask if plastic fouling from the wads in smokeless shells is fact or myth.
As one example, how many of you have shot modern guns where, depending on how many times you shot it in a short period of time, had the barrel/barrels warm to being hot to the touch. There is no way there isn't going to be some plastic residue left behind when the plastic wad is going down a warm/hot bore. One is free to believe what they want, but you are kidding yourself if you think modern shells don't leave behind plastic fouling.

[dondiego]

That is one of the reasons that the original Ed's Red formula has acetone as an ingredient. It hastens plastic fouling removal.