45-70 400 gr bullet from biglube

[Matt85]

any one use this bullet in their 45-70 trapdoor rifles? being that I never shoot any further then 200 yards I figure I could try a lighter grain bullet so ive been looking at the biglube 400 grain bullet.

-matt

[Brownie Nash]

Those Big Lube bullets are great for Cowboy Action Shooting But for long range shooting their accuracy is dismal. Try the standard 405 gr or the 500 gr. round nose.

[Matt85]

im currently using a 510 grain buffalo arms 460500 but id like to try using bullets in the 400 or less grain range to save on lead and recoil. id love to try the Lee hollow base 405 grain bullet but I have not been able to find a mold.

-matt

[Guido4198]

I have the Lee # 90374 mould. It has given me GREAT results out of my 45/70 Guide Gun with smokeless powder and NRA/alox lube.
Yesterday I loaded up just a few rounds with Emmert's lube and 66 gns. fffg Goex to try in my old Trapdoor. Looking at the bullet, I'm concerned that it won't hold enough lube for many shots before issues develop. Using a grease cookie would be an option, but I'm not sure I want to go through that much trouble unless there seems to be some real promise. I'll let ya'll know.

[CanoeRoller]

You might try the Lyman 457124. It will cast close to 400 grains with a 20-1.

[John Boy]

... ive been looking at the biglube 400 grain bullet.
Owned it - shot it - sold the mold because the bullet wouldn't produce past 100yds.
A proven bullet out to 300yds is the 405 HB - buy the Lee mold:
http://leeprecision.com/mold-sc-459-405hb.html
2nd choice - the Lyman 457124, 385gr government bullet

Both designs have been in use since the 1800's so why fool with a Big Lube

[MT Chambers]

My Big Lube 400 didn't shoot as well as others even at 100 yds....but for ranges over 200 yds. the Postell, Creedmore, Badger bullets weighing over 500grains are a much better choice, use 'em out to 1000 or so.

[Guido4198]

The test of Lee #90374 was abysmal. From my old Trapdoor rifle I fired 8 rds. from the bench @ 50 yds. Nothing to report that even resembles a "Group". During the same range session, the "good load" I developed for the BPCR ,fired from the Trapdoor ,using the 491 gn "Badger-Browning" bullet was producing a 50 yd group with several holes touching. I'm done with that one for a 400gn option.

[Matt85]

I recently received 25 of the 400 grain biglube bullets to try out in my gun. biglube offers sample packs so you can test before purchase. I will give em a try but seeing none of you have any luck I doubt I will have much either. I figure it cant hurt to try cause I still cant find the Lee 405hb mold that I want.

-matt

[John Boy]

I figure it cant hurt to try cause I still cant find the Lee 405hb mold that I want.What exactly do you want with a Lee 405 HB because the mold is what it is - there is no variation. Truthfully, your statement doesn't make sense

Matt: I believe you don't realize that Trapdoor bores never had one groove diameter the same. The reason the 405HB bullet was developed was to compensate for the groove diameter differences so the bullet would obturate properly. No proper obturation - groups that will be all over the place at any distance. As is said - Fish or Cut Bait. The choice is yours

[montana_charlie]

I figure it cant hurt to try cause I still cant find the Lee 405hb mold that I want.
What exactly do you want with a Lee 405 HB because the mold is what it is - there is no variation. Truthfully, your statement doesn't make sense

As is said - Fish or Cut Bait. The choice is yours
John, perhaps he is saying he can't find the mould he wants because there are none.
Your link to the Lee site shows the bullet, but it also shows that item as 'Out of Stock' with advice to check with a dealer.
If Matt can't find a dealer who has one, his statement starts to make more sense than yours.

You can't fish ... or cut bait ... if you are in a barren desert.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Midway has the 2 cavity lee bullet available, but if this goes the way the magnum primer thing did , he'll be shooting the biglubes..:veryconfu

[Matt85]

Midway has the 2 cavity lee bullet available, but if this goes the way the magnum primer thing did , he'll be shooting the biglubes..:veryconfu

I shoot what ever works and I will try every thing I can get my hands on. the magnum primers worked, if the biglube bullets work then I will use them.

john boy, im not exactly sure what your getting at... but I suggest you reread my posts.

on the plus side of things, a member here is selling me a 405 HB mold so I will have these to try very soon! I will try both the biglube 400gr bullet and the Lee 405gr HB bullet when I can make it to the range next.

-matt

[John in PA]

For the Lee 405 HB to work properly, it needs to be cast of alloy no harder than 1:20 tin:lead. NO antimony!. Compressed blackpowder, firm roll crimp. See Spence Wolf's book, http://www.4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm

[Springfield]

The Big Lube 400's aren't a very good long range bullet due to the large meplat, and some think the larger lube grooves cause too much drag. I sell them and I don't get any customers who want them for Long range, just hunting and shooting cowboy matches, which is what they were designed for. I had one of the Lee HB bullet moulds and it was the worst mould I have ever tried to use. Maybe it was a fluke but I just couldn't get it to go fast enough to stay hot. I am on the Mihec 45-70 HB mold GB, I figure that will work nice in my Trapdoors, fill the bore better. The bullet is very similar to teh BL bullet, should hold plenty of lube. Certainly better quality than the LEE.

[Matt85]

i just got my hands on a LEE 405gr HB mold and i found as long as i keep it really hot it will cast just fine. the bullets come out at 405-408 grains using 20-1 and drop surprisingly easy from the mold. but as i said i need to run the lead pretty dang hot and cast quickly otherwise it doesnt fill out properly. i think the problem with the mold is that it doesnt have enough meat to hold in the heat. its very thin aluminum and its design seems to lose heat rapidly.

i will be taking 50 cartridges to the range this weekend. 25 loaded with the biglube 400gr bullet and 25 loaded with the lee 405gr bullet with various powder loads and wads. which ever yields the good groups at 100 yards will become my hunting round this year. if both yield crappy groups then i will be using a 500 grain buffalo arms bullet to hunt with as it yields good groups.

-matt

[Don McDowell]

The biggest problem with those lee moulds is they are to thin, they heat up way to easy and are prone to warpage.
Get a bigger ladle so theres more than enough to fill the cavity and leave a good sprue.
Casting thermometer will do wonders for making good bullets.

[oldfart1956]

Matt just a couple of tips for the trapdoor. First off find Larry Gibsons post in the Single Shot Guns forum. Loads and Techniques for the Trapdoor. It's worth it's weight in gold. Neck size only. Lyman makes an inexpensive neck sizing die. Use the right size expander. Track of The Wolf has both of these items though they might be out of stock...haven't checked. You mentioned "various powder loads and wads". Good. Don't get too stuck in one mode. Experiment. Find a target you can actually see at 100yds. Sounds simple....eh? I'm using an inverted triangle (think of a pyramid standing on its head) that is 18/20 inches (not a typo) at its widest part. It's easy to see and keep track of left to right. Aim at the pointy bottom. Put on a front sight you can use. I made a fiber-optic one for my 1884. Go to Hobby Lobby, buy a pack of the brass tubing 1/16 i.d. and solder it to the front blade and insert the fiber-optic. A light crimp will keep it from falling out. Don't be afraid to vary the alloy. I'm shooting Lyman #2. 15bhn. I get the same (light) leading in the throat whether 5 shots or 60 shots. I use Felix lube. I've gone from boolits tumbling at 25yds. to 5 shot groups with 3 holes touching and overall group size of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch at 100yds. and I'm almost blind. Try Unique...10.5 to 12 grains. (you said various powders) Gitter done. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Simonpie]

Rule #1: Your rifle is unique.

That being said, my worn and rusty trapdoor likes weight. If you don't like recoil, try less powder, but my trapdoor likes a heavy bullet regardless.

[Good Cheer]

The 1889 trapdoor I got in 1983 in a St. Charles Parish pool hall had a .463 groove diameter, bigger than the chamber would accept in a loaded round. Shot great with black and lubed soft cast bullets. But, it had a totally pristine barrel, rifling smooth as a baby bottom along with machine shop shavings still behind the lock plate and no blue gone off the moving parts. It didn't need paper wrappers to shoot but you did need to keep the alloy soft enough to fill the rifling and lots of lube boiling in the smoke. Nowadays I just shoot the same boolits out of muzleloaders because brass is a limitation in itself but you might find the rules haven't changed.

Before someone asks about the trap door, it was a Model 1884, stamped 1889, and a friend borrowed it, shot it with his sons and left it uncleaned for months. End of story.

[Matt85]

wow im sorry to hear about your rifle Good Cheer! I would force that friend to replace the rifle if I were you.

oldfart1956, ive been in contact with Larry for some time now. he's a great guy with a wealth of knowledge.

well I went to the range today and learned a thing or two about bullets under 500 grains. first here are the loads I used:


trip four:
5: fed mag, 70 2f, .459 lee, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 65 2f, .459 lee, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 lee, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 lee, spg, wad* (second best 5")
5: fed mag, 55 2f, .459 lee, spg, 3 wads* (best groups 4")
5: fed mag, 70 2f, .459 biglube, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 65 2f, .459 biglube, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 biglube, spg (ok 6")
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 biglube, spg, wad* (ok 6")
5: fed mag, 55 2f, .459 biglube, spg, 3 wads* (ok 6")

* = 0.03" wads compressed with the powder

now for what I learned: neither bullet liked charges over 60 grains. strangely enough neither bullet worked well without wads either. with both bullets the best groups were done with 55gr of 2F under 3 wads that were compressed with the powder. the best group out of all of them was with the Lee 405 grain over 3 wads and 55gr of 2F. I do find it strange that the hollow base bullet required a over powder wad to work properly. without a wad the Lee 405gr bullet was worthless and wouldn't even hit paper. something else I noticed was that the 60gr charge with a wad seemed to burn the cleanest while charged both over and under that seemed to produce more fouling. the 60gr charge with a wad yielded a strange red residue that ive heard about online before but I cant remember what it was, any ideas? my current conclusion is that the biglube bullet is not the best choice for shooting from a trapdoor but could probably yield decent hunting groups if time is taken to work up a proper load. the Lee 405gr bullet has some good potential with some more load work.

-matt

[Guido4198]

Matt,
I already gave up for the time being anyhow on Lee 400's in my Trapdoor. I'm glad to see you ran some loads with multiple .030 wads though. I'm loading a 491 gn NEI bullet. I'm seating it "out" to achieve the longer C.O.L. my rifle appears to like, which has left me with less compression than my Goex 3f appears to like. I've been pondering running some test loads with multiple wads.
Much of the fun of BPCR shooting is the infinite variety of variables we get to experiment with..!!!

[13Echo]

My Trapdoor does very well with the Lee 405hb. I use 59grs FFg compressed enough to allow seating the bullet so I can get a frim crimp over the ogive. No wad. The bullet casts at 0.460" out of 30:1 alloy and is shot as cast. The case is expanded with a 0.458 - 0.462" Buffalo Arms expander so the bullet isn't resized by seating in a too tight a case neck. The firm crimp seems necessary to get enough pressure to allow the bullet to bump up to fit the bore as the same load is pretty poor with out the crimp. The load is very accurate in my friend's rifle and quite good in mine. My rifle still prefers the SAECO 500 gr 881 bullet.

Jerry Liles

[Matt85]

i suspect the Lee 405gr bullet is capable of the same groups my 500 grain bullet is. the best ive ever been able to do is around 2" at 100 yards with the 500gr bullets. im sure the rifle could do a little better but its really only as good as the person behind the trigger.

-matt

[Springfield]

I wish Mihec would get to the hollowbase 45-70 bullet GB. It looks a lot like the Big Lube but not quite so much lube, and a hollow base. Should make a good Trapdoor bullet, at least out to 200 yds. Nice to see some actual tests on the BL bullet instead of just " it sucks".

[Baja_Traveler]

I'm not shooting it out of a trap door, but I use a 330 gr Lyman 457122 as my 200 yard chicken load for BPCR. It's very accurate, and I wouldn't consider changing to anything else at that yardage. (the pigs, turkeys and rams get a BACO 530gr Money Bullet)...

[Don McDowell]

I wish Mihec would get to the hollowbase 45-70 bullet GB. It looks a lot like the Big Lube but not quite so much lube, and a hollow base. Should make a good Trapdoor bullet, at least out to 200 yds. Nice to see some actual tests on the BL bullet instead of just " it sucks".

: fed mag, 70 2f, .459 biglube, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 65 2f, .459 biglube, spg (horrible)
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 biglube, spg (ok 6")
5: fed mag, 60 2f, .459 biglube, spg, wad* (ok 6")
5: fed mag, 55 2f, .459 biglube, spg, 3 wads* (ok 6")


Lucks to me like just sucks would save a lot of typing.[smilie=s:

[Matt85]

I didn't have to retype that, it was copied from my reloading notes. all I did was add the opinion on performance.

im betting you could achieve 4" groups at 100 yards with the biglube bullet with some work. im also betting the biglube bullet would out perform the Lee bullet when it comes to damage on a deer. but unfortunately for biglube I prefer accuracy over damage in my hunting rounds. ive hunted deer with a 50 cal round ball which damages on par with using an FMJ bullet and the deer still wound up in my freezer due to the ball going exactly where it needed too.

-matt

[Springfield]

Saying something Just sucks is somewhat subjective, actual numbers let's us decide if it sucks for us or is good enough for what we wish to do. I'm sure the 10th place shooter at Quigley felt his shooting sucked that day, and yet he could probably outshoot 99% of us here. It all depends on your frame of reference.

[1874Sharps]

Like Canoeroller suggests, I have had good luck with the LYMAN 457124. The Lee HB 405 bullet, even though it was reputed to shoot well for others, did not shoot well for me. If you are shooting 200 yards or less, I think the Lyman boolit will suit you very well. One thing I like about the old Lyman 405 and 500 grain molds is that they are either very close to, or exactly what the folks 130 or so years ago were using. Well-proven is a term that comes to mind.

[Don McDowell]

Saying something Just sucks is somewhat subjective, actual numbers let's us decide if it sucks for us or is good enough for what we wish to do. I'm sure the 10th place shooter at Quigley felt his shooting sucked that day, and yet he could probably outshoot 99% of us here. It all depends on your frame of reference.
I doubt if any of the top 50% of the shooters at the Q felt there shooting that weekend sucked, and further more I seriously doubt any of the top 75 made the trip up there with a load that the notes inidicate "horrible" to 6 inches at 100.
There's a plethora of proven bullets out there that will shoot well to 600, and the 457124 that has been mentioned here time and again will shoot better than "horrible" all the way to 800 yds.

[Lead pot]

4" or 6" using a rest @ 100 yds is pretty bad especially for a hunting load.

[Matt85]

4" or 6" using a rest @ 100 yds is pretty bad especially for a hunting load.

while 4" isnt great, i wouldnt say it wasnt suited for hunting. if i can repeatedly hit a 6" target off my mono-pod at 100 yards then i would deem the weapon and ammo suitable for hunting.

-matt

[Springfield]

Harley guys think Jap bikes "suck". BMW guys think Harleys "suck" . And jap crotch rocket guys think both Harley and BMW guys are crazy to ride our slow, old designs. Just saying something sucks imparts no information at all. No one ever said the Bl bullets were good for long range, and I specifically said they don't have a reputation for good long range use. I'm surprised you even consider 200 yards "long range". I'm glad you know of many bullets that shoot well out to 600-800 yards but the OP was just needing something for hunting at 200 yards.