A "Heavy Metal" 1911...?

[makicjf]

I am toying with the idea of picking up another RIA Gov't model 1911 and beefing it up to shoot heavy bullets at 825-850 fps. I have loads that shoot very well from my standard 1911, but really limit their use as I do not want to batter the pistol. They are the lee 255 rnfp and the lee 252 swc . The 255 rnfp is loaded over 6.3 of unique with an oal of 1.20. The 252 swc is over 6.2 and seated to 1.195. Both come from the speer #12, and both boolits are shorter than the 260 jacketed hp they have listed. These loads turn the 1911 into a semi auto mid range 45 colt and shoot tight.
Any ideas on what to do to protect the steel framed pistol from the weight and slide speed? Maybe an 18 or 20 lbs recoil spring, perhaps a shock buffer? I just ordered 3 wolf 8 round mags with heavy springs and I thought they might help lift the heavier rounds and keep the cycle in time. an 18 1/2 pound spring seems to work, while I have feed issues with the 20 lbs spring. I would set this up as a dedicated heavy boolit 1911. Where should I start? what toys to add?:twisted:
Thanks!
Jason

[Tatume]

There was an article in Handloader some years ago about just what you propose. I don't remember which issue, but maybe someone here does. You could probably locate the issue at Wolfe Publishing and purchase a copy.

[Groo]

Groo here
Get an older Speer manual and look up the loads for the 260gr 45 bullet.
You can play with the recoil spring or go to the flat bottom firing pin retainer, look at springco systems, or just ask around.
If it can take 45 super you should have no problems.

[Tatume]

Good call. Speer #13 has a bunch of loads making 800 to almost 850 fps with the 260 gr JHP.

[williamwaco]

I have not had good luck with recoil buffers.

[makicjf]

thanks guys. I actually pulled these loads from speer #12. Both boolits are cast and a bit shorter than the speer 260 hp which is about .680. the cast are .670 and the rnfp is .665. I have less boolit in the case when seated to 1.20 and 1.195 than with the published speer data for the 260 jhp. I am confident the load and pressures are safe. I am slightly concerned over excessive wear on the pistol. The loads function well and shoot great with an 18 1/2 lbs wolf spring and various 7 round mags.
I am not familiar with a flat bottom firing pin: what does it do? Other than a slightly stouter recoil spring what else might I do? I have read pros and cons on shock buffers but have zilcho experience with them. Some say no good, while others use them. This Rock Island is a "rock' of steel, but do not want to wear t out.
Run with:
18 1/2 lbs spring
maybe a flat bottom pin
...input on shock buffers...
I really like the way these loads shoot and thump down range, but its not worth beating up a pistol...
anyone have any experience shooting heavies and what did you do to protect the pistol?
Thanks!
Jason

[nicholst55]

Actually, all the 1911s from the Philippines are a bit soft. I could honestly think of better pistols for this particular application. Since you're using a Rock Island pistol, I would recommend the strongest recoil spring that will still allow the gun to function normally and lock the slide back on an empty magazine. I'd buy at least an 18 and 20-pound Wolff spring from Brownells and try them. If the gun will run with the 20-pound spring I'd try a 22-pound spring. In fact, I believe that I would call both Wolff and Brownells tech support and discuss the project with them. See what their recommendations are. I'd also keep a sharp eye out for signs of parts battering and peening. If I saw any, I believe I'd switch back to standard weight bullets in that gun.

[makicjf]

Thanks. I have both an 18 1/2 and a 20- with older mags I get lock back with the 18 1/2 but its ht or miss with the 20. When the new wolf mags arrive I'll try again with the 20. I'll give the folks a call tomorrow. What pistol do you think would be a better choice?
I fear I may find that as a sometimes this is ok, but not good for an always: JMB redesigned it for a 230 , and that may be the reasonable limit for extended use.
Thanks!
Jason

[35remington]

Stay the heck away from heavy springs. If you don't understand why, ask.

The small radius firing pin stop is a far better solution and gives equal slide speed reduction as a heavy spring without the damage that occurs from overdriving the slide forward with a heavy spring.

Heavy springs have always been a bad idea in 1911's; some have just not gotten the word yet. As a solution the SRS has rendered it obsolete. This, ironically, by returning the pistol to JMB's original configuration.

SRS's can be ordered from EGW. You must fit it yourself or have a gunsmith do it.

Frankly, there is nothing a 250-255 grain bullet can do in a 1911 that a 230 like the RCBS Cowboy bullet cannot do better. First and foremost you need to select a good 230 and forget the whole heavy bullet idea.

The gain in so doing is exactly zero. In fact downsides outweigh any gain. Again, if this is not understood I would be happy to explain.

[waksupi]

If you want a 1911 that will really take some punishment, get one of the later numbered Argentine Colts (Sistema Colt) .

[44MAG#1]

These type of post always turn into "do it" "don't do it" posts and nothing is really accomplished.
The heavier springs will batter the "works" more returning into battery. OKAY. We get that.
If some want to do it let them do it and if some don't then don't.
As long as one doesn't load into the PSI range that is dangerous hey let them have fun.
I load heavies at times myself. But they are not loaded to higher momentum than 230 gr loads so slide speed is not anything robust.
Why? Because "I want to" just like "makicjf" wants to.

[Multigunner]

Does a long slide reduce the battering effect of extra hot loads. The weight should reduce the velocity of the slide itself and slow down unlocking a bit, but would the area under the ejector port be vulnerable to cracking?
Only cracked or broken 1911 Milspec slide I've seen was a destruction test specimen from the factory. Insanely overloaded till the case blew out and blew out a piece of the slide.
Some modern designs like the SIG had early slide cracking problems due to improper radius at the corners of the ejector port, never heard of this being a problem with the original milspec 1911 ejector port. Are any aftermarket slides known to crack?
A few blowback auto designs were known to develop cracks near the ejector port after much use, even a .22 auto.

PS
A friend had a Detonics pistol and for handloads he made cases from cut down .308 or .30-06 cases, for the thicker web.

[Jupiter7]

This was the very subject that peaked my interest into casting, heavy bullets in the 1911.

"the gain is zero", what the hell? It's all in fun, don't be a downer.

Most of what I've read is on track. Flat firing pin stop, 20# recoil spring, a good start. The RIA is most likely the weak link. I'd pick up a Springfield forged frame mil-spec model. I'm linking to a thread on 1911 forum from a member here, I go back to sometimes, seems a good start.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=378852

[makicjf]

lots to think about. thanks guys

[35remington]

If the gain is zero......including no effective gain in penetration and less muzzle energy, why do it? A "heavy bullet dedicated" 1911 offers no gain in performance over the ordinary kind. Meplat size and bullet hardness and bullet velocity have more to do with penetration than another 20 to 25 grains weight.

The sensibility of any course of action is one of those things on the table when evaluating the wisdom of doing anything. Why leave that out? It would be a less than effective reply if it was, so I included it.

If giving that advice makes it a "downer" so be it. It is what it is.

You'll also note that I included a recommendation for the SRS if he goes the heavy route, so even the less practical selection in terms of bullet weight is covered as well, especially if he wants to keep speed up.

So there's something in my previous reply to make everyone happy no matter what course of action is chosen. There's no reason to get "down" about it.

If the SRS is installed there is no reason to go to a heavier 20# spring. The standard 16 lb. spring will then be sufficient. Again, if the "exactly why" is not understood, ask.

[nightal]

Actually, all the 1911s from the Philippines are a bit soft. I could honestly think of better pistols for this particular application. Since you're using a Rock Island pistol, I would recommend the strongest recoil spring that will still allow the gun to function normally and lock the slide back on an empty magazine. I'd buy at least an 18 and 20-pound Wolff spring from Brownells and try them. If the gun will run with the 20-pound spring I'd try a 22-pound spring. In fact, I believe that I would call both Wolff and Brownells tech support and discuss the project with them. See what their recommendations are. I'd also keep a sharp eye out for signs of parts battering and peening. If I saw any, I believe I'd switch back to standard weight bullets in that gun.

RIA slides are 4140 steel, frames are cast, they will begin to start forging the slides sometime soon, here is a post from the 1911.com forum

http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=4241948&postcount=14

[Char-Gar]

The 1911 pistol was not designed to do what you wish. The 45 Colt revolver was. You can buy a Ruger BH for the same money and will outperform the 45ACP in a 1911 buy a large margin. I can find no rational reason to push the 1911 beyond it's design parameters.

[khmer6]

I keep hearing forged frames for a while but still none. The recent manufactured 10mm are still cast.

[Char-Gar]

I keep hearing forged frames for a while but still none. The recent manufactured 10mm are still cast.

If you are looking for a forged frame with a high quality tool steel slide milled from bar stock, hunt up a Norinco 1911A1. If you can overlook the "Made in China" marking, you will have a quality pistol from which to build what you like.

[jmsj]

makicjf,
I have tuned a gun similar to what you are looking for. I have posted in the past about a Taurus PT1911 that I couldn't get decent groups out of until I tried heavier bullets (Lee .452-255-RF). You can search the old posts regarding using similar bullets in the 1911 platform. I now use this as my hiking pistol. I find it much more comfortable to carry a 1911 than the Vaquero or 629 I use to use when carrying a full pack (up to 40#). For me I found that I was more willing to carry a gun when it wasn't getting in the way. I also found it more convenient to carry a spare clip than a speed loader or loose ammo.
I do use the flat bottom firing pin stop, 25# mainspring and an 18.5# recoil spring. The flat bottom firing pin stop takes away the mechanical advantage of the factory large radius firing pin stop. The flat or small radius firing pin stop was JMB's original design for this part. Without the mechanical advantage of the larger radius more energy from the slide cycling has to be used to cock the hammer back thus slowing down the slide velocity. I also use a heavier than stock mainspring to add more resistance to the slide coming back.
Even though this helps quite a bit, remember that there is still more energy in the heavy loads and the safety limits are still the same. Loading heavier than normal does come with some special considerations. Remember that heavier bullets take up more air space in the case.
Only time will tell how this set up holds up. I have probably fired a thousand rounds out of this set up with no problems or noticeable wear. But remember every gun is unique and not all may like this set up.
Good luck, jmsj

[Tatume]

Hi JMSI,

Thanks for posting. There are lots of good reasons for doing things different from what other people want to do, not the least of which is "I want to." If the OP wants to shoot heavy bullets in his M1911 then he should do so.

Take care, Tom

[wv109323]

If a 1911 is set up properly I would not use a "Shok-Buff". During the use the shok-buff will become battered and enlarge in size. Once enlarged the shof-buff will rub against the slide causing erratic slide movement. This may allow the slide to move at a slower speed (malfunctions) or the slide may not consistently return to the exact point of battery every time( accuracy).
Bullseye shooters do not use shok-buffs for the above reasons. I would as not recommend a shok-buff in a pistol that I was using for self defense.

[makicjf]

I appreciate all of the input and good, useful information. I was thinking about this for the reason stated, an easy packing, quick stoking rapid firing " 45 coltish" pistol. I have two blackhawks in 45 colt/45 acp and a birdshead in 45 acp all of which handle the loads listed with ease. I also have a 625 jm that eats them like candy. All four revolvers shoot very well and the 625 can be stoked on par with the 1911. I am going to look into the flat firing pin as it sounds like a good upgrade and should I choose to feed the 1911 some heavier boolits it will be prepared.
I wonder where the "heavy boolit" line actually is? I shoot the lee "230" tctl over 5.8 of unique a lot. I have several thousand rounds down range: the actual weight is 238-239 lubed with LLA. I have never had any real issue with good magazines. The standard recoil spring gets weak around 1200 rounds. This is .1 grain above the published listed load at the oal listed. I think the data says seat to 1.170 and I seat to 1.175. Is a full load "240" not going to overly batter the pistol while a boolit 15 grains heavier is to much? I respect the thought and evidence that it is, in fact, to heavy for the design. The 230 hardball load has worked for over 100 years: add a good flat nose design and I should be ahead of ball ammo. I know this boolit and load kills well and quick as it has a 180 lbs hog bang flop to its credit fired from my hand.
I will keep the colt esque loads in the wheel guns.
Thanks

[makicjf]

I installed the EGW firing pin stop and can feel the difference in recoil. I replaced the recoil spring with a 16 lbs wolf and was having lock back issues with a hardball level load ( not locking back on the last round) I tinkered some and gave up and called armscor. They informed me the pistol had been shipped with an 18 lbs spring: I put in the 18 1/2 lbs wolf and it locked backed perfectly with good mags. I have about 8 old colt/springfeild/ and 2 mccormick mags that all need new springs. 4 are WWII era springs -- They may never have been changed! ( bad gun owner am I !)
So I have the flat bottom spring, a heavier than standard, but factory standard 18 1/2 lbs spring and 6 shok buffs on order to try ( to many differing opinions on the shok buffs-- I guess i need to forge my own on there usefulness, efficacy and detriment to function). I may or may not shoot the 255's but the cheap 1911 is now set up for maximum if I choose to shoot some. Regardless these simple mods should help pistol life.
Thanks for the help!
Jason

[whopist]

This post is written very well. well done "jmsj"
----------------------------------------------------

makicjf,
I have tuned a gun similar to what you are looking for. I have posted in the past about a Taurus PT1911 that I couldn't get decent groups out of until I tried heavier bullets (Lee .452-255-RF). You can search the old posts regarding using similar bullets in the 1911 platform. I now use this as my hiking pistol. I find it much more comfortable to carry a 1911 than the Vaquero or 629 I use to use when carrying a full pack (up to 40#). For me I found that I was more willing to carry a gun when it wasn't getting in the way. I also found it more convenient to carry a spare clip than a speed loader or loose ammo.
I do use the flat bottom firing pin stop, 25# mainspring and an 18.5# recoil spring. The flat bottom firing pin stop takes away the mechanical advantage of the factory large radius firing pin stop. The flat or small radius firing pin stop was JMB's original design for this part. Without the mechanical advantage of the larger radius more energy from the slide cycling has to be used to cock the hammer back thus slowing down the slide velocity. I also use a heavier than stock mainspring to add more resistance to the slide coming back.
Even though this helps quite a bit, remember that there is still more energy in the heavy loads and the safety limits are still the same. Loading heavier than normal does come with some special considerations. Remember that heavier bullets take up more air space in the case.
Only time will tell how this set up holds up. I have probably fired a thousand rounds out of this set up with no problems or noticeable wear. But remember every gun is unique and not all may like this set up.
Good luck, jmsj