My recent 45/70 efforts

[Guido4198]

Not sure how this is going to work trying to attach pics....but here goes:
I recently inherited an original 1873 Springfield Trapdoor Rifle. Original production date was 1875 for this rifle. It appears to have been re-built in 1890. It's a family rifle with a story...but that's not the point of this post.
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I also shoot a Browning BPCR in 45/70, along with the Marlin Guide Gun shown in the pic..sort of an "old meets new".
This rifle will only see cast bullets and blackpowder.
I'm using an NEI "Badger Browning" mold that throws a 30:1 alloy slug at 491 gns. Lube is Homemade "Emmert's Lube", using 10 % Anhydrous Lanolin and no oil of any kind. Shooting down here in the Florida heat and humidity I don't want my lube to be too soft. The loaded rounds in the pic are packed with 66 gns. Goex fffg. Primer is WLRM ( winchester large rifle magnum). .030 veg. overpowder wad. I've had great results with 64gns. fff,g and am trying to work up just a little more.
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The old rifle will shoot these into 1 1/2-2 in. or so at 50 yds. Not bad considering the size of the slug itself. Definitely good enough for "minute of hog" precision. My goal is to have her up and running with the best possible load for some Hog hunting later this year.
I'm not too happy with the overall length of these rounds, but I'm not going to tweak that just yet. The Browning BPCR has virtually no freebore and that's how I got started loading blackpowder rounds. Deep seated bullets with lots of compression and just haven't changed. I'm changing one variable at a time.
Wish me luck..!!

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like a wonderful project, great way to connect with your ancestors. I'm guessing the old Trapdoor has an abundance of freebore.

[Matt85]

looks like a fun project! im working on a similar project my self in a 1888 trapdoor dated 1891. I haven't tried 3F powder yet but Ive have decent success with the load below:

- 510 grain buffalo arms 460500 cast from 20-1 and sized to .459
- 0.030 veggy wad
- 70 grains KIK 2F
- Remington fire formed brass
- Federal 215 magnum large rifle primers

the above combo will shoot 2" groups with decent reliability at 100 yards with very few fliers. the load is still a work in progress though cause I still get fliers and it also leads a little bit.

-matt

[Guido4198]

Matt,
What are you doing for fouling control ?? I've had the best results controlling flyers by using a blow tube and 3-4 long breaths between shots. I tried wiping but didn't get the same consistency that I'm finding with the blow tube. I've loaded a bunch of rounds in the past with 2f...switched to 3f for this project 'cause I already own 20 lbs or so of it.
I have "aging eye" issues that aren't helping with this project. I have special lenses in my shooting glasses, and a Merit Eye disc screwed to the minimum aperture size. Those together get me a "decent" sight/target picture...but not ideal by a long shot. Fortunately, I'm familiar with the area I'm going to be hunting and have never taken a deer or hog beyond 100 yds. Some as close as 30. I'm not going to be trying to use this rifle in long-range shooting.
Good Luck with yours..!!

[Matt85]

I use a blow tube and wipe every 5-10 shots. the wiping isn't so much for the fouling as it is the leading.

-matt

[Guido4198]

I'd be very pleased with 2" @ 100 yds...but I'm wondering where the fliers are coming from that you are seeing. When you say "fliers"...how far out of your otherwise fine group are they going?? Do you pull the cleaning rod for bench sessions ?? Some folks report that can help groups. Crimp or no crimp..?? Do you trim your brass ?? Inconsistent hold on the rifle can open groups with these old Trapdoor rifles as well.
Not trying to stick my nose into your business...just a few thoughts about what might be spoiling your groups. I'm going to 100 yds at my next range session...if the winds have settled down. it's been a very gusty 20+ around here lately.

[detox]

Your boolits appears to be a good design (lots of grease grooves). For best accuarcy i ran a wet patch down bore between every shot. You may want to use smokeless powder in your Guide Gun.

[Gray Fox]

Have you encountered any pressure problems using fffg rather than ffg? Do you have any idea what velocity you're getting with your load? I'm asking because I have a similar boolit and 10# of KIK fffg. Your load looks like it may have promise for my recently acquired Siamese Mauser in .45-70. Best of luck with your project. GF

[Guido4198]

Detox...I tried a couple of my BP rounds through the guide gun...just for fun. Now it's smokeless only. I was wiping between shots at first, but discovered I got better results with the blow tube.
Gray Fox: I haven't seen any significant pressure signs. Others have reported loading up to 70 gns of 3f with good results, and no overpressure issues. Once I get a few of the MANY variables settled and feel like I'm close to "the load"..I'll drag out the Chrono and see what they're running, just for the record.

[Littlewolf]

OK I'm getting started loading for a model 1873 cavalry carbine trapdoor going to load with Lyman 457193 405gr boolit and fff powder BUT I don't have a devoted BP mechanical measure but I do have lee scoops which scoop/s should I use to hit 70grs .
Hope this was a good place to ask such questions

[Guido4198]

Littlewolf, I know some folks swear by those dippers...but I wouldn't reload anything without at least an inexpensive single beam balance scale.

[nagantguy]

Littlewolf, I know some folks swear by those dippers...but I wouldn't reload anything without at least an inexpensive single beam balance scale.

+1 on that, dippers can get you close or killed. Always always always use the best scale you can get. I use dippers have em marked for special loads, can get it almost perfect to the grain but I know that cause I measure.

[StrawHat]

OK I'm getting started loading for a model 1873 cavalry carbine trapdoor going to load with Lyman 457193 405gr boolit and fff powder BUT I don't have a devoted BP mechanical measure but I do have lee scoops which scoop/s should I use to hit 70grs .
Hope this was a good place to ask such questions

Guys, he is loading black powder. I agree that weighing charges is the way to proceed but scooping black powder is also an option.

I don't have the Lee scoops but have made scoops from old casings or pieces of tubing.

[montana_charlie]

OK I'm getting started loading for a model 1873 cavalry carbine trapdoor going to load with Lyman 457193 405gr boolit and fff powder BUT I don't have a devoted BP mechanical measure but I do have lee scoops which scoop/s should I use to hit 70grs .
Hope this was a good place to ask such questions
Using any kind of 'scoop', fill a 45/70 case up to the point where the base of your bullet will be when seated.
Pour that volume of powder into some of your Lee scoops until you find the one which holds it best.

That charge with (ideally) a 1/8-inch felt wad over the powder will ensure a good, tight load.

Even if you were to mess up and grab the wrong Lee scoop ... one which increased the powder charge by 50% ... you WOULD notice the difference when you tried to seat the bullet, but you would probably STILL not create a safety issue.

There have been jillions of black powder weapons loaded without the assistance of powder scales ...

CM

[kokomokid]

I think CM gave you great advice. I use from 56gr to 71gr powder with 550 gr bullet and would have no problem with Lee spoons. LB

[Littlewolf]

OK so I'm interpreting that I should fill a casing via a trickled to the depth my boolit seats check that on my digital for the weight then repeat that weight for each cartridge. With each cartridge add 1/8" was between powder and boolit. Should I use magnum large rifle or standard large rifle primers.

[Guido4198]

Littlewolf...
I'll let CM(Charlie) weigh in on your filling technique. He's absolutely correct in pointing out how many rounds have been loaded with BP without the use of scales. That said, I personally still weigh every charge. As to primers...brother have you opened a can of worms..!!
There's a lot of varying opinion swirling around on the primer topic, including the use or non-use of an "over-primer wad" to go between the primer and powder. I use Large Rifle Magnum primers. Some are even using pistol primers, with and without the aforementioned "over primer wad". What I have learned about loading Blackpowder cartridges is that the number of variables you can "tweak" is almost limitless. I suppose that's part of the fun. My best suggestion is that you realistically evaluate what your goal is for your rifle/load combo. Saying "I want the BEST possible load" is setting out on a long, and possibly never ending journey. For myself..at the present time, I'm working up a load for an old Springfield Trapdoor Rifle. The barrel is 138 yrs old, and in decent...but not pristine condition. The sights are awful, and so is my vision ( aging eyes). MY goal is to be able to shoot into "minute-of-pig" at no more than 100 yds. A consistently reproducible 3-4 MOA group will be just fine. Others would be appalled. Your choice Pard.
ENJOY..!!

[montana_charlie]

OK so I'm interpreting that I should fill a casing via a trickled to the depth my boolit seats check that on my digital for the weight then repeat that weight for each cartridge.
If you got that from what I wrote, I must have misspelled something.
CM

[Boz330]

If you are loading a carbine with 70gr of 3F, I doubt there will be any pressure issues but it is going to hurt. The original load was 55gr and that was probably 2F.

Bob

[bigted]

+1 on that, dippers can get you close or killed. Always always always use the best scale you can get. I use dippers have em marked for special loads, can get it almost perfect to the grain but I know that cause I measure.

guess I need an education on the "get you killed" thing. I have been using Lee scoops for years and as Charlie stated ... jillions of other shooters load jillions of rounds the same. guess im not familiar with the amount a feller could get in a 45-70 case and get anywhere near a "dangerous" load.... top of the page states BLACKPOWDER AND BRASS CASES so please do explain the KILLED thing for anyone that is uncertain ... or cornfused concerning your statement.

[Littlewolf]

would yall agree that I could/should measure how much boolit is in the case when seated then sacrifice a case cutting that much off and use that for a charge measure or just use the supplied scoop with the lee classic loader I bought new to load with?

[fouronesix]

Yes, once you're sure that is the amount of powder that gives the best results. Since the Lee scoops give a desired amount only by coincidence, I'd think a trimmed case would be better.

[bigted]

Your boolits appears to be a good design (lots of grease grooves). For best accuarcy i ran a wet patch down bore between every shot. You may want to use smokeless powder in your Guide Gun.


oh contraire my friend! if you don't load that guide rifle with a charge of black then your missing the most lever action fun you can possibly have. a marlin is THE best lever to do the black powder shooting thru as it field strips so easy and then cleaning from the breech is the way to go. till you do your cleanup tho I always use the last fired case and leave it in the chamber to swab the bore into this case to keep most all of the fouling outta the action. then I go back to my shooting and thusely I can and have shot thru an afternoon of pure black powder fun.

you really should try the bp in yer marlin ... its a real hoot.