ALLIANT CLAY DOT -same as Hodgdon Universal Clays?

[retread]

Noticed the Graf and sons had ALLIANT CLAY DOT for sale. Alliant says it is only for 12 ga. but also says it is interchangeable with Universal Clays which a lot of folks use in handgun loads. Does anyone have any more info or experience with it?

[GP100man]

I`ve seen it on shelves ,but no pistol data so I did`nt purchase any.
If it`s equivilante is CLAYS ,it`s a fast powder!

[RickinTN]

Universal Clays and Clays are two different powders. Universal Clays is "about" the same speed as Unique. Clays is somewhat faster. Be very cautious to differentiate the difference. I think, but am not sure that Clay-Dot is about the same speed as Red-Dot. With Hodgdon naming 3 different powders Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays they didn't do anyone any favors in the confusion department.
Good Luck,
Rick

[fecmech]

Claydot is supposed to duplicate Clays NOT Universal Clays. Clays is a VERY fast powder when used in metallic pistol cartridges, in many cases faster than Bullseye or Red Dot. It is limited to fairly light target or "cowboy" loads in handguns.

[Ben]

As to the remark of " the confusion department . "


I too, wish that powder companies would not use words like " clays " on so many different powders. Too confusing. Far too easy to get someone hurt.

[Bzcraig]

As to the remark of " the confusion department . "


I too, wish that powder companies would not use words like " clays " on so many different powders. Too confusing. Far too easy to get someone hurt.

I agree and far too many people are not good label readers........someone WILL get hurt for this reason, just a matter of time. If they used other names that forced people to read applications it would be better.

[GP100man]

I saw Universal Clays ,but have read it`s the speed of CLAYS , as fecmech ststed , it`s faster than reddot or BE.

With a Lee 158gr. rnfp I get stiky extraction at 5.1 gr. in the 6"GP, I called 4.5 max , as it gave me a tad over 1k fps.

Wanted to add: I have both Universal Clays & CLAYS & as stated Universal Clays is very close to the "flaming dirt" powder !

If I only had these 2 powders for 38/357mag it`d be fine , just remember ,1 powder on the bench at the time !!

[retread]

Thanks for the input. I think I will pass on the Clay Dot and stick with what I know. Powder seems to be coming back to the shelves and I am not in that bad of a need yet.

Thanks to all, Jay

[MtGun44]

Hodgdon tried to get Alliant to stop using "Clay" in their name, lost the
case.

They understand about the confusion and have stopped using the names with
Clays except for "Clays" powder. The powders are "Universal" and "International", with a
footnote below that they "use Clays technology". But the word Clay is no longer
in the names. They figured this out years ago, and changed the names.

Bill

[Photog]

Just to add to an old thread, Clay Dot is NOT a direct replacement for Clays in pistol loads. I just developed a long loaded .40S&W 1.20" with 4.9-5.0gr of Clay Dot for 1050fps out of my race gun Tanfoglio Limited. There is NO WAY you would EVER put 5.0gr of Clays in a .40 without seeing serious pressure signs. But the Clay Dot load shot pretty soft with 180gr FMJs.
ALso if you look at multiple burn rate charts, you will see Alliant puts Clay Dot as faster than Green Dot and slower than Red Dot. Hogdons chart puts "Clays" as faster than HP38/W231 and slower than Titewad. Most agree that these are all small differences in shades of FAST powders and they all react slightly differently under different conditions. But the net effect is Clay Dot is in reality a couple steps, if not more, slower than H-Clays and the data will not cross over for pistol usage. Whatever you do DON"T use H-Clays without reading up on OAL, max loads and the Kabooms that happen with it. Most guys are using around 3-3.5 gr of H-Clays to make MAJOR in IPSC/USPSA, thats very low charge weight. H-Clays is 2 steps faster than Titegroup and just a skoosh slower than Titewad (which is considered WAY too fast for big volume pistol loads (9,40,45, 357).

[35remington]

Photog, you might want to look at R.H. Vandenburg's article in Handloader. He did indeed find Clay Dot to be very close to Clays in multiple calibers used in metallic cartridges when directly compared as to charge weight. In other words, a direct comparison of identical powder charge weights between the two in pistol cartridges were made, and they were found to be identical or nearly so in obtained velocity. The suggestion that it is significantly slower than Clays was not apparent in his testing.

Since your effort is nowhere replicated in a data manual as they don't have Clay Dot, and you don't have access to a pressure gun your load with Clay Dot might be running rather high pressure......higher than you think. If you think Clays is "too fast" and the information found in the Handloader article is applied (no significant difference in metallics between the two powders) your Clay Dot load might be over the limits without your knowledge.

Or Clays is more suitable than you think. You might have to pick one of those conclusions as they both cannot apply to your load.

You did, after all, "develop" the load yourself without any real knowledge of what the actual pressure is.

[Photog]

Photog, you might want to look at R.H. Vandenburg's article in Handloader. He did indeed find Clay Dot to be very close to Clays in multiple calibers used in metallic cartridges when directly compared as to charge weight. In other words, a direct comparison of identical powder charge weights between the two in pistol cartridges were made, and they were found to be identical or nearly so in obtained velocity. The suggestion that it is significantly slower than Clays was not apparent in his testing.

Since your effort is nowhere replicated in a data manual as they don't have Clay Dot, and you don't have access to a pressure gun your load with Clay Dot might be running rather high pressure......higher than you think. If you think Clays is "too fast" and the information found in the Handloader article is applied (no significant difference in metallics between the two powders) your Clay Dot load might be over the limits without your knowledge.

Or Clays is more suitable than you think. You might have to pick one of those conclusions as they both cannot apply to your load.

You did, after all, "develop" the load yourself without any real knowledge of what the actual pressure is.

Most definitely true that I don't have a pressure gauge, and I could be running higher pressures than I think. If I was overpressure, it would be somewhat detectable, but my testing only involves velocity, recoil, sound and primer inspection. I don't have the mic needed to measure case heads. Since I'm familiar with the test pistol, I can tell when I'm way under and way over ideal pressures, but no I can't tell the difference in the middle ranges.

I can't seem to find the article referenced, do you have a issue number?

And, I have never used H-Clays, only A-Clay Dot. My main point is that there is abundant internet lore regarding Clays, and how quickly it spikes in pressure, and the subsequent damaged caused by being over pressure. Clay Dot may do the same thing, but it has not been flogged as much as Clays.
I have chosen to experiment with powders, and I approach all my unpublished loads with extreme caution. Most testing is done with my 40 Tanfoglio Limited, which is actually a 10mm with a 40 barrel and one different spring. I run long lengths and then slowly go shorter, all over a chrono looking for velocity anomalies and inspecting spent cases. Since my quest is for major PF, soft shooting, and small SD, I have looked at a number of powders, and for a while had to use whatever I could score online. Clay Dot is not my first choice, and luckily I finally got 8lbs of Titegroup so I'm not experimenting as much.

What I just won't believe is that one powder is a direct grain for grain substitute for another powder. Especially when there are so many anecdotes about one powder's pressure spikes, and the other powder has almost no published data, I think its better to be cautious and NOT trust that a 5gr load of Clays is the same as a 5gr load of Clay Dot. Just too much out there saying it ain't so!