Curiosity about the 444 Marlin

[OverMax]

Always wanted one. But haven't been able to find a used one locally for quite awhile. I'm curious why they never became popular with us sportsman? Especially those pre button ones.
{The venerable 444 Marlin.}


O/M

[376Steyr]

The 444 was designed around the jacketed 44 Magnum handgun bullets then available, with a 265 grain loading being the heaviest available at the time. The gun-savvy types who liked the concept of a big bore lever action throwing heavy slugs were not impressed. When Marlin re-introduced their 45-70 lever, when the 45-70 had a resurgence of interest, it pretty much stomped on the sales of the 444.

[pietro]

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While I've owned several .444's over the years since 1966, they're generally too much gun for many shooters, and probably also too much for most American game animals, when it comes right down to it.



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[Scharfschuetze]

I believe that the 265 grain bullet was about the heaviest bullet that the Marlin444 would stabilize in the original issue due to a rather slow rifling twist rate of 1 in 38 inches. Many of my acquaintances in the 70s felt that rate handicapped the rifle and was the reason for its failure in the market. As originally loaded, the 444 used (as noted above) the 44 Magnum bullet. At 444 velocities, it had many reported failures on deer due to the bullet coming apart without penetration. Hornady made a 265 grain bullet in .429 diameter for reloading that was constructed for 444 ballistics.

I almost bought one in 1970, but I didn't like it's high comb stock that didn't compliment its other wise trim woods rifle lines.

I see that Marlin's current web site gives a twist rate of 1 in 20 inches for the 444 which should stabilize the popular heavy bullets and solve all of those complaints that I heard back when it was originally introduced. They also have done away with the high comb stock and it really looks appealing now.

Here's a link:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/444.asp

[PAPABEAR]

I have taken several deer with this round all having expired without delay. Reloading for the round presented no particular problems; with the correct loading the round is very accurate. I would try a gc cast bullet cast a bit on the hard side.:castmine:

[MT Chambers]

Not much need for this round, which needs shorter bullets with short noses, when the 45/70 covers everything much better.

[smkummer]

I believe the cartridge will linger on and it has its good qualities. Its almost 50 years old now. Marlin has sometimes been slow to change but the fact that they realize that heavier bullets are sometimes fired in the gun and has changed the twist to accomidate is a good thing. Ballard rifling has also helped. So when its all said and done, lighter 44 mag. loads for range, deer and plinking and 444 marlin loads for blowing stuff up and the once in a lifetime moose hunt. Although if I ever felt the need for a big old cartridge in a lever gun, it would be 45-70. I currently have a H&R repro officers model trapdoor and my 45-70 needs are well met.

[dnepr]

The 444 will never surpass the 45-70 in popularity but mine as thumped a lot of deer , I would probably enjoy a 45-70 but it would never replace my 444

[turmech]

I love my 444. I would not trade it for a 45-70, but where I live the 444 will handle anything I will find and then some. Mine is the guide gun version, about 10 years old has ballard riffling and 1 and 20 twist. It is probably my favorite gun. It has shot everything I have fed in it well from factory Remington ammo to hand loads with jacketed and cast. I currently use a 275 grain custom mold accurate mold made for me.

The most common factory load is the Remington and although accurate I found the bullet will not hold up to the velocity of the 444. I have no personal knowledge of the Hornady factory ammo, but I don't like anything with a plastic tip. I think the lack of good factory ammo or commercial bullets has turned many off on the 444.

[OverMax]

I think the lack of good factory ammo or commercial bullets has turned many off on the 444. Your spot on turmech. Your thread has some interesting points. Would I be correct in assuming because of your rifles 1-20 twist you are at or near the highest threshold of boolit weights suggested for that particular twist? (w/ 275 gr.)
If that were correct? Well than the poor rifling choice in the earlier Marlin barrels of 1-38. {A slow twist for the 444 that would shoot heavier bullets better.} I'll bet that's exactly why Marlin let it slide in popularity. Not wanting there 444 to compete with the 45-70. I would think the 444 would show much better performance and accuracy probably in its ability to stabilize a much heavier a 300-375 gr. something boolit in those earlier rifle's verses that short stubby pistol bullet of 265 gr. which would preform very well in Marlin's later models. Interesting.

[ironhead7544]

The 444 Marlin was an attempt to get the lever action a more powerful cartridge for longer range shooting. No new 45-70 rifles had been made for some time. The 444 is an Express cartridge, like the old ones that were meant to shoot flat to 150 yards. I bought one so I could use the 44 Magnum bullets for cheaper practice. The 265 gr Hornady was made for the 444 and has a much thicker jacket. The 265 gr is also about ideal for the 1 in 38 in twist. Excellent accuracy and flat shooting to around 200 yards, at least for the traditional lever guns of the time. The 265 gr was still carrying over 1000 ft pounds of energy at 200 yards.

Considering the cost back then, and if you wanted a traditional lever gun, it was a bargain. Light loads with cast boolits were also easy and cheap to make. For a lever gun fan, whats not to like?

[wrench man]

Mines a 444T built in '71, I never checked the twist?, haven't shot anything but factory Remington 240grn out of it so far, with the Lyman peep on it, it'll put them right where I tell it to!, it also has a low comb stock, I haven't been able to figure if it's factory?, replaced?, or modified?, but it works WELL! with the peep sights.
I will say the recoil is fairly stout, but that's compared to my 1895M in 450 Marlin throwing 350grn slugs!

[OverMax]

ironhead7544;
Not having a rifle here to prove my point in regards to bullet weight preference. I looked to the reference books I have here. A speer #11 & a hornady #3rd edition.

Speer gave info on only one bullet. Their {240 gr.} for use in the 444. A common thin jacketed bullet designed for pistol use.

On the other hand the Hornady did offer recipes for both the 240 & 265 gr. bullets for use in the 444 and again for pistol use also.

So I assumed the 265 gr. was nothing more than another thin jacketed pistol bullet having a dual purpose. (444 & 44-mag usage)

Here and there over the years. I've found at times jacketed pistol bullets do not always work in a rifle application. {Speeds are so much different and time spent in the bore creating excessive spin are a couple of the many reasons.} They tumble, they break-up, or just become MIA down range. But not always so with a poured cast that's been resized & lubed properly. So if my theory holds true about twist and bullet weighs. A 444 will undoubtedly give the 45-70 some competition. That's if the 444 rifle is fed the correct bullet with the ideal bullet weight for its barrel twist rate.
Oh how I would like to play some with a early 444 Marlin and cast some G/C bullets for it. Just to see if I could make a really big game thumper out of it.

O/M

[ironhead7544]

OverMax: The 265 gr Hornady 44 cal jacket is 3 times thicker than the standard 44 Magnum bullet. Today, we also have partitioned bullets for the 44 cal. And a lot of good cast bullet designs. You are making me think of getting another 444! Even with 300 gr bullets the 444 can give good accuracy. Some rifles dont know they have too slow of a twist. Havent shot the 1 in 20 but it should be good.

[dnepr]

OverMax: The 265 gr Hornady 44 cal jacket is 3 times thicker than the standard 44 Magnum bullet. Today, we also have partitioned bullets for the 44 cal. And a lot of good cast bullet designs. You are making me think of getting another 444! Even with 300 gr bullets the 444 can give good accuracy. Some rifles dont know they have too slow of a twist. Havent shot the 1 in 20 but it should be good.

Mine is one of those 444's that doesn't know it isn't supposed to stabilize heavy bullets, it did very well with 300 gr Barnes originals, and is showing great promise with the lee c430-310 rf

[OverMax]

Lucky to have a cabela's not 15 minuets away from here. Sooner or later an early model will show up in their racks. I expect to pay dearly for it. But I'm going to treat myself to one. As far as a 1-20 twist current model. It has to be a sweet one to take afield. As for myself. I just don't care for those button rifles.

O/M

[Bo1]

I love my Marlin 444 lever action.
It is an older (probably 70's) model, and is a hard hitting excellent brush gun.
I've only shot factory Remington ammunition through it so far, but am looking forward to casting some heavier boolit's for it.
Bo

[OverMax]

dnepr;
You guys up in Canada always have those nice rifles were all looking for down here in the States. So your hinting you have a 1-20 twister and it does well with the 300 weight cast. That doesn't surprise me.
For your info: I fish up by Kenora and Dryden occasionally for Lakers on Bolder. And down by the Sioux Narrows for walleye. Scenery is nothing short of gorgeous up there.
Is that a older Moto Guzzi I think I see in your avatar?

[Lloyd Smale]

My 444 outfitter would proably be the last lever gun in the safe if i had to start selling them. It hits game hard, almost as hard as a 4570 and is alot easier on the shoulder and with it being able to use pistol bullets for light loads it makes it a bit more vesitile then a 4570. A couple grains of bullseye and a 200 grain cast bullet is like shooting a 22. A 340 lfngc with a heavy powder charge will kill anything in the world. Whats not to like.

Heres an article my buddy wrote on his. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/444Outfitter.htm Search around on that forum and youll see some other articles by jim taylor and paco kelly. 444 lovers are in good company.

[nekshot]

Count me in with Lloyd. I had a early marlin and exchanged it for a win timber model. It would be the last gun I would part with. If remington would have been serious from the beginning with marketing a hard hitting gun instead of sissy pistol bullets this gun would be touted as more than a novelty(by those who don't know what it can do). Lee 310 gr full steam gives moa at 100yds. Paco Kelly sure thinks they are great, but he forgot more than most shooters wish they knew!

[smoked turkey]

I got my .444 back in the early 70s. It came with the standard 24" bbl and straight stock. After hearing the talk in my local gun shop about how hard they hit and how well they put the game down I had to have one. I have taken two nice bucks with mine using a lead 240 SWC boolit. I have found the stories about them to be true. I regret it now, but being influenced by the short barrel Marauder Marlin 30-30, I had the barrel of my Marlin shortened to 18.5". It makes it a wonderful woods rifle. I have shot loads for it made using 410 wads in old 30-40 Krag & 303 British cases using a set of RCBS Best 410 dies. I called RCBS about the die set and they didn't seem to know anything about them even though they appear to be a factory set or at least a set made by someone who knew what they were doing. After this thread I think I will bring the old Marlin to the front of the safe and do some more with it as I did enjoy shooting it with light to heavy bullets as well as shot loads.

[SCOTT ARTHUR]

My .444's & I get along just fine with the RD 432 - 300 & either H335 or WC-844. Fun to shoot, easy on the shoulder, point & click out to 200yd. on 8" steel plates w/ plenty of " WHUMMMPPP"!

Scott

[OverMax]

Lloyd Smale;
Thanks for the link. I found it pretty interesting. No doubt I'll have to save it for future reference. I was surprised to see a fair amount of 4198 loads listed by Mr. Anderson. But knowing the lever-action's barrels length (18-1/2 ") its understandable why He chose a quick burning stick powder.

S/S

[dnepr]

dnepr;
You guys up in Canada always have those nice rifles were all looking for down here in the States. So your hinting you have a 1-20 twister and it does well with the 300 weight cast. That doesn't surprise me.
For your info: I fish up by Kenora and Dryden occasionally for Lakers on Bolder. And down by the Sioux Narrows for walleye. Scenery is nothing short of gorgeous up there.
Is that a older Moto Guzzi I think I see in your avatar?

Nope she is an original 1in 38 twist but doesn't stop it from handling the 300 gr , yup the fishing is good here , I am on lake of the woods but the little lakes around Dryden are a whole lot better than the big lake. That is "Frankencycle" in my avatar , started life as a dnepr mt10/36 after extensive modification including a 1600 cc VW bug motor transplant it got hung with that name , and it sticks to this day

[Salmoneye]

Hornady made a 265 grain bullet in .429 diameter for reloading that was constructed for 444 ballistics.



That bullet is Hornady SKU #4300, and is .430" diameter...

SAAMI specs for the .444 Marlin are .424" bore, .430" groove...

[dkf]

I wish I still had my .444marlin lever. I really liked the gun and the recoil was ok with me. Still have some factory 240gr Rem soft point ammo and brass.

[turmech]

Lloyd Smale;
Thanks for the link. I found it pretty interesting. No doubt I'll have to save it for future reference. I was surprised to see a fair amount of 4198 loads listed by Mr. Anderson. But knowing the lever-action's barrels length (18-1/2 ") its understandable why He chose a quick burning stick powder.

S/S
H4198 is my powder of choice in the 444. I know a lot of other powers come up in the conversation, but honestly it has worked so well for me I have never tried anything else.

[bikerbeans]

I have a 444S, 1972 vintage, (supposed to be 1:38, I have never checked) that will stabilize a 300 grain barnes buster and shoot under 1.5" @ 100 yards. I have also shoot 270g GC boolits with similar accuracy. I also have a single shot 444M that I made by rechambering a 44Mag H&R. This gun also has a 1:38 twist and will stabilize and shoot accurately 310g GC cast boolits. My personal experience is a 1:38 twist will stabilize properly loaded 300+ grain projectiles. I have read posts from a gentleman that I have a lot of faith in on the GBO site about 1:38 twist 444Ms stabilizing the 355g Beartooth boolits.

BB

[6.5 mike]

Good info guys, I just got a 444s at the last show I went to. Do have the lee 310 gr'er & picked up a lyman 429421 255 gr there. Now to find some brass & dies.

[turmech]

I have seen others post that there gun will feed the SWC but I think most won't feed correctly. My Marlins throat was too tight for the lee or the Ranch Dog bullet so I had tom at accurate molds make the 432275M for me. I based the design off of Glen Fryxell article on the 444. A good read if you have not seen it before.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

[turmech]

Should have said most won't feed SWC crimped in the crimp groove.

[Clay M]

Marlin dropped the .444 from the lineup a year or two ago.I still enjoy hunting with my Marlin 73 sporter. Killed a nice 11pt buck with it last fall.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Love MY 444!

[OverMax]

seagiant; now that's what I call a hand cannon. Thank Goodness for muzzle breaks. Wow what a piece to take to an indoor range. Two shots and the place is emptied out. ~~lol

turmech; Thanks for posting the link. I found it quite interesting. Just tons of info and a little history thrown into the mix also. You bet I'm going keep that one (link) for a reference read. Yes Sir I would definitely agree with Mr. Fryxell. The 444 Marlin cartridge is indeed "modern-day Big Medicine." Again thanks, for the Link.

Clay M; Nice to hear your 444 is still a doing what it does best. Tips them BIG ones over right on the spot. 11 point. That's a reasonable size buck for the freezer don't you think? All kidding aside. Clay M that is a nice size Deer you harvested there. I wish I were as lucky.


O/M

[mattd]

Just got one, so other then less then 10 shots of the 265g jackets, I haven't had much time with it. But I've had it long enough that I've read and got excited about working something up for it.

.5" 100 yd groups with 1:38 micro groove barrel, be sure to read parts 1 and 2......
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

[6pt-sika]

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I read a very negative thread you started about a personal friend thats been locked . With an attitude like yours you deserve no help from me .

[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[blikseme300]

Hi,
Love MY 444!

I have a BFR in 444 and have not shot it much as it is a little hard on me, but the muzzle blast does clear out the indoor range quick!

[mt_sourdough]

Just passing through and saw this thread and decided to hear what the word on the 444 would be. Most of you all seem to have a high opinion of the 444, but most people who have used the 444 for decades still do not know it's potential.
So far I have a 225gr Sage Country bullet that does 2550 and has averaged 1.5" at 200 yards for me. The bullet goes much faster as I have pushed it over 2700 fps, but I backed off to 2550 because it will produce one hole groups at 100. I am waiting for a new MM mold that weighs 235 and I will be pushing it over 2600 fps.
1 in 38 will stabilize bullets up to 375 grains as 6pt stated. In my 22" 1/20 Ballard rifle, I have pushed a 450 grain bullet close to 1700 fps and a 420gr bullet over 1800fps.
In my terminal ballistics tests, I have had a 427gr bullet penetrate through 22 jugs and a 3 1/2" oak block and bullet would have been lost if not stopped by 2X8 backstop. The original Remington load only penetrates 3 or 4 jugs and suffers jacket core separation. The 265gr FP doesnt do much better with 4 or 5 jugs of penetration, but that bullet is till tough and holds together well unlike the Rem bullet.
On top of all that, you don't often hear 444 owners crying about recoil.

[Cosmiceyes]

Nice to see everyone's feed on the 444.I had a friend in school that I went deer hunting with his family.His Father had a 444.The moved to our area from Pennsylvania.I was in the 4th grade the first time I shot it. Not what I was expecting.It was too big for me,and well I never shot it again. south,and east Texas has good cover for this kind of gun.His Father bought a .270 win. in a Rem.700. My first deer gun was a 30-40 Kraig Carbine that came with a case of 220 gr silver tips.If it was in 200 yards it was dinner.Cost $10.00. My 2nd gun was bought for me as a range saddle gun. Browning had come out with the Model 92 in .357 an .44 mag. I had the 357. It has taken more deer than all my other guns combined. I understand your thinking on the 444 being the gun you will always keep. I like all your thoughts,and shared events. I will be looking for the other people you have noted too.

[6pt-sika]

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[Clay M]

The .444 had a nice run in the marlin rifles.Guess they didn't sell as of late so they dropped them from the lineup.I have found the 265 Hornady bullet does a good job on deer.I won't use the 240 factory load,as a neighbor has lost a lot of deer with that load.My dad always hunted with a Marlin .44 magnum rifle and had great success with it.He used the Remington factory load 240 gr bullet. Something about the extra speed of the .444 often made that bullet fail on deer.

[OverMax]

Remington factory load 240 gr bullet. Something about the extra speed of the .444 often made that bullet fail on deer

It appears since the preferred 444 factory cartridge and its weapon was a produced by Remington. You would think Remington's Testing Labs would have found that defect of bullet // jacket separation in their own ammo. Than corrected the problem before (it) or the rifles marketing? I'm getting mixed signals as to why Remington would go on making the same mistake for their 444 rifles in producing that same 240gr cartridge for their customers year after year? Now I'm really curious and wondering how long after the 444 hit the market place Remington then offered the 45-70 caliber in the same models as their 444s?

O/M

[6pt-sika]

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[Clay M]

I have one of the 72 non micro grooved .45/70. It has been my main woods rifle since that time. I have no idea how many deer,big deer I have killed with that rifle but a good many.Back in 72 the only factory loads were the 405 grain bullets loaded very weak and slow.It is still my favorite rifle over the .444

[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[OverMax]

All very nice deer. Even a few what I would call tender bites. I see your not opposed to taking a doe or two. That's good. Up where I'm at there's always more doe seen than bucks. If I were to pass on the doe's I probably end up going home skunked for the season. lol
Bear looks to be nothing more than a skinny Spring cub in size. No matter. I know what a thief & pest all size bear can become.
Speaking of rifles. You have a very respectable collection 6pt-sika. One day in a Private Message after I pick my rifle up. I'd like to know more about that CBS resolve. As I highly doubt I'll find a rifle without one these days. That's if your willing to discuss the topic with me? Anyway thanks for posting all those pictures. They got me anxious now for this up coming Falls hunt.
"Nothing better in the morning than the smell of loin and eggs in the skillet."

O/M

[Clay M]

I have the 444S.I like the size for carrying in the brush, but believe the 24" barrel is needed for maximum velocity. I can't get anywhere near the advertised ballistic with my rifle. It really doesn't make much difference since most of my shots are inside 50 yds.

[6pt-sika]

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[6pt-sika]

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[helice]

32ft/second per inch. That fits with my experience perfectly.
My 444 is a Winchester BigBore. I like it because the case size offers so many possibilities. It can be loaded way down to 44 Scofield/Special with 170 grains or up to 44 Magnum rifle loads with 300 WFN or load it up to full tilt 444. There are so many moulds. The 44s - any of them - work so much better with cast. Just look at all the research that has been done here on this forum. It's astounding.

[OverMax]

Been reading this thread top to bottom. Come to notice so many are indeed using cast verses store bought and are pleased in their getting good results. Since the heavier cast {as read} seem to like speed. I'm wondering are raw casts preferred for the 444s bore. Since Marlins barrels are Micro-Groove on the newer rifles? How would a good tumble lube work?

O/M

[Starrbow]

Micro-Groove (MG) barreled 444's loves/Needs speed for heavy for caliber bullets, Ballard 1-20 seems indifferent to it, Ballard 444's are way more forgiving in load development where as MG is not, it takes time and many loads to find that one load in a MG 444, but once you find that one load, they are impressive! Many are clueless in this thread about a 444, and it's potential, as time goes on, more and more people are proving that the 444, is indeed a diamond in the rough! Just because Marlin and Remington turned there back on the 444 doesn't mean it's a bad or forgotten Cartridge, it just shows bean counters run companies, not hunters and shooters!

[helice]

Wow!
Well spoken Starrbow.