Practical Ranges for little 380's?????

[1Shirt]

I have come to the conclusion that for me at least the practical max range (for practice) for me is about 10yds. With my little Ruger LCP, and cast, I can keep all shots on paper, and the majority in the black. For me, that is satisfactory. I am wondering if others shooting the little 9 could advise me if they are shooting at distances further than I have established for myself?
1Shirt!:coffee:

[texassako]

I shoot a Walther PPK/S, and usually shoot 7 yards and occasionally at 10. I don't think many were designed for shooting much past that.

[Finster101]

7 to 15 yards with my Kel-tec P32. That PPK should be better than that since it has a real trigger.

[MtGun44]

Short sight radius, small sights, small grips, mediocre to worse triggers on most
don't lend to target shooting.

OTOH, my wife has a Sig P238 which has a good trigger, good sights so it does
better than average. Much of the reason she has that one is that she said
that the Keltec P3AT sights and trigger were unacceptable.

Bill

[Outpost75]

I was taught by a WW2 OSS vet, who was an instructor at "the farm" in basic tradecraft for intelligence officers and clandestine operators, that the purpose of a pocket pistol is to neutralize immediate threats to life or to avoid capture, to "shoot and scoot" to create a window for escape.

The admonishment was, "if you stand and fight, you'll never live to shoot'em all!"

If your job is not "combat" but you have a dangerous job to do in a denied area where hostiles are actively looking for you, with the intent that you be captured, drugged, tortured and imprisoned for years until you can be exchanged for an asset allied forces are holding, the rule is that "he who shoots and runs away may live to spy another day...."

We were taught that engagement range was from contact to 10 meters, putting "burst on target", firing instinstinctive point, convulsive grip, double- or triple taps in 1-2 seconds, then breaking off contact to disappear....

A good reference is "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn, and Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" by Col. Rex Applegate.

[gcsteve]

The little pocket 380's are certianly not range guns, especially with factory ammo. They can be punishing, and not easy to be accurate with. I practice at about 10 yards. Trying to hit something further out can be dissapointing.

[jimb16]

I practice at 25 yards as well as 10. I figure that if I can keep them on the target at 25 in rapid fire, I'm not likely to waste any at 10!

[Scharfschuetze]

While in LE, I carried a Walther PP in 380 as a back up gun and off duty piece for some time. It was inherently as accurate as my service revolver off of a bench and I often qualified with high scores with it on the department's 7 through 25 yard pistol qualification course. Of course that was back when the eyes were a bit less presbyopic and saw that small front sight clearly. I felt the cartridge/pistol was suspect for power at extended range on bipeds, but it was up to it accuracy wise.

[bowenrd]

Last week I popped a rock chuck with a Sig P238 .380. It was a one shot kill at just under 200 yards (about 197 under).

[freebullet]

Sounds like yer doin great for an lcp. I never could call those speed bumps "sights" & it chewed up my finger after the first mag. I got rid of it because it couldn't handle the lint/dust from daily pocket carry and be reliable. I will have to say my all time favorite 380 pocket pistol would be a Sig p238, notice a trend with that. They ironed out the kinks and they are fantastic. If your doing that well with a lcp I say congrats, I sure couldn't.

[ku4hx]

Seven yards or less. My wife just bought a Walther PPK/S and after 106 rounds, she really likes the gun. But even as a relatively new shooter she recognizes it's basically a "last resort" belly gun.

[randyrat]

My P3AT is absolute torture on my trigger finger with factory ammo. I practice between 5 and 10 yds no sights, instinctive only. I mostly practice with 95 gr over 2.9 grains of Bullseye and that helps ease the slap due to recoil on the front of the finger.
I go back to factory ammo to make sure I'm close
Mine is not a target pistol, it's purpose is to give a window to run if needed to save my life.

If I try real hard, I mean real hard I might be able to hit a barn wall from the inside, my hands are too big for the gun, but I like deep carry and this gun is easy to deep carry.

[fecmech]

I practice on turning targets at a max of 7 yds. Our indoor range has a setting on the timer that allows the targets to turn towards you for 2 seconds and away for 7 seconds. I use 50' targets that have been shot by the .22 guys and hang them backside to me on every other target frame. Starting from a low ready position with the Keltec I can make double tap hits on 2 targets or a single hit on 3 targets in the 2 second time frame pretty consistently. What I've found that helps with the Keltecs is to sand off the mold ridge inside the trigger guard and make it smooth. Also a band aid around your trigger finger will keep it from getting sore. Love the KT's and LCP's, great little pocket guns that you truly forget you are even carrying!

[Rick Hodges]

I have an old OMC(pre AMT) Backup. I usually practice at 15 yds. Awful sights, poor trigger, but the basic weapon is pretty accurate. I can keep all shots on a piece of stationary (5x8") at 25 yds. from a rest. It is a belly gun, for last resort close range work. It is easy to carry, easy to conceal and after you run out of ammo it makes a pretty fair set of brass (stainless) knuckles.

[NoZombies]

My sig P238 is great at 7, 15 and 25 yards. I've never tried anything beyond that, but considering how well it does at those ranges, I suspect it would still be in the black at 50 without a problem.

But the P238 has good sights, a reasonable trigger, and uses a locked breach instead of straight blow back.

[Sensai]

Close, 7 to 10 yards, is all I do with my P3AT. Most of that is just for functional testing to make sure it still works every month or so. I consider a 380 as a "get off me" gun, and only rely on it to gain me some time.

[Outpost75]

75239

In my opinion the Colt Pocket Hammerless is the best "pocket pistol" out there in either .32 or .380 caliber. Mine belonged to an old lawman who carried it on the job for many years. Most of the finish is gone, and it is covered with little dings where it banged against the back of his trouser belt buckle, but the pistol is deadly accurate on small game and performs exactly like the pistols written about in American Rifleman back in the 1930s and carried by the SOE and OSS during WW2....

More 7.65 and 9x18 pistols came back as GI souvenirs from the ETO after WW2. I have several which came out of the estates of deceased veterans of our "Greatest Generation." My Walther PP is a postwar police model made in 1963 which had been issued by the Poliezi Bremerhaven and imported by Century Arms a few years back. It is a keeper. The Beretta Tomcat is thrown in to show what a good "mousegun" does. I find the Beretta more accurate, reliable and ergonomicaly correct than the Keltec.


75240
The CZ50 is a bargain among current imports. Mine shoots well.

WW2 German Army and postwar police acceptance specifications used into the early 1970s for the 7.65mm and 9mm Kurz pocket pistols allowed a group dispersion of 5 mils, about 2" at 10 meters (33 ft.) or 5" at 25 meters (82 ft.), firing from a test stand.

Speer No. 13 manual states that groups of less than 6" at 25 yards are deemed acceptable for these guns. In my experience the "full sized" polizei pistols having barrels of 10cm (3.9") or longer, such as the Walther PP, are more accurate than the mouseguns having barrels shorter than 3".

In my experience the .32 ACPs tend to be more accurate than a .380 in the same or similar model. I think this is mostly because the .32s have milder recoil and muzzle blast and are just easier and more fun to shoot! Some of the .380s can be nasty little hand biters in a small gun. These are some typical results with .32 Autopistols I have testing cast loads. The better guns do about 4" at 25 yards off sandbags, and if yours produces results like this, you can say with authority that it is better than average.


7523275233752347523575236

[novalty]

First thing that popped into my head when I read the question, is how people demonstrate how big a fish they caught. :Fire:

[H.Callahan]

I've got a '70s era PP in .380. Used it for a lot of years as a second gun and off duty gun when I was in LE. My PP can dominate a 6" plate all day at 25 yards (note I said IT can -- as I have gotten older, I think I would need a 24 yard barrel to hit 6" plate any more! :mrgreen:)

[Finster101]

Sounds like yer doin great for an lcp. I never could call those speed bumps "sights" & it chewed up my finger after the first mag. I got rid of it because it couldn't handle the lint/dust from daily pocket carry and be reliable. I will have to say my all time favorite 380 pocket pistol would be a Sig p238, notice a trend with that. They ironed out the kinks and they are fantastic. If your doing that well with a lcp I say congrats, I sure couldn't.



I can't speak for the lcp but my Kel-tec has never failed to go bang even after a month or so of pocket carry. It's hot where I am so it gets a lot of use. I intentionally do not clean it before going to the range, in fact most of time I don't even change the mag as I prefer to shoot up the sweaty ammo just in case and put in fresh ever so often. Main thing I worry about is starting a fire with all the lint in the thing. Hasn't happened yet though even after 4 years of carry.

[jonp]

I have come to the conclusion that for me at least the practical max range (for practice) for me is about 10yds. With my little Ruger LCP, and cast, I can keep all shots on paper, and the majority in the black. For me, that is satisfactory. I am wondering if others shooting the little 9 could advise me if they are shooting at distances further than I have established for myself?
1Shirt!:coffee:
With both mine and the missus (hers has a laser I bought her) LCP's both of us have come to the conclusion that outside of 10 yrds you are trying to scare someone with the bang more than expecting to actually hit them due to the trigger.
We consider that close enough for the 380.

[Land Owner]

I can't, but my 17 y.o. can regularly hit 20-inch, now 18-inch worn hardened steel plow discs from 100 yards with either of my two Walther PPK (1 - Blue; 1- Stainless). My "inferior" range is 15 yards shooting Ranch Dog TL358-100-RF that drop at 104 grains over IMR 700X. That bullet has GOT to sting going through a bad guy. Don't do bad things in front of me within 15 yards or there will be a neat little group when the magazine is empty.

[randyrat]

My P3AT is absolute torture on my trigger finger with factory ammo. I practice between 5 and 10 yds no sights, instinctive only. I mostly practice with 95 gr over 2.9 grains of Bullseye and that helps ease the slap due to recoil on the front of the finger.
I go back to factory ammo to make sure I'm close
Mine is not a target pistol, it's purpose is to give a window to run if needed to save my life.

If I try real hard, I mean real hard I might be able to hit a barn wall from the inside, my hands are too big for the gun, but I like deep carry and this gun is easy to deep carry.
I have to say, I tweaked the load of 2.9 bullseye some and I ended up with a softball size group at 10 yds -off hand- using Carolina cast boolits (one of our Vendor sponsors).....I'm not going to work at it anymore, I'm happy.

[country gent]

I have a walther PPK-S ( S&W made) and sig arms 238. The sig is the more accurate of the 2. Better trigger and sights. The sig sights are trtium and big enough to see. I have shot it from the bench and offhand out to 50 yds. I normally shoot it at 25 feet to 25 yds depending on the range Im on. I have a 100 grn load worked up that duplicates point of aim point of impact as the remington Golden saber 102 grn load. I really like the little sig. The walther PPK-s went back to Smith for the recall and while reliable its just not my favorite. Butthen or a dare I tried my J Frame 2" 38 spl on High power src target at 200 yds one day. LOL 3 of 5 hit paper only one in the black.

[jonp]

I can't speak for the lcp but my Kel-tec has never failed to go bang even after a month or so of pocket carry. It's hot where I am so it gets a lot of use. I intentionally do not clean it before going to the range, in fact most of time I don't even change the mag as I prefer to shoot up the sweaty ammo just in case and put in fresh ever so often. Main thing I worry about is starting a fire with all the lint in the thing. Hasn't happened yet though even after 4 years of carry.
I had 2 kel tecs. I still have one and it is a nice paperweight. I have never had 2 bigger pieces of junk in my life and the reason I sold one is the guy is a gunsmith and wanted to mess with it. The paperwwight is so bad I wont sell it to anyone. I do not only not recommend them I actively steer people away from them at lgs and gunshows. Did I mention the disaster of customer no-service?
To say my experience with kel-tec was not good is an understatement. For an object you are going to stake your life on do you really want the cheapest thing you can find?

[jonp]

I have to say, I tweaked the load of 2.9 bullseye some and I ended up with a softball size group at 10 yds -off hand- using Carolina cast boolits (one of our Vendor sponsors).....I'm not going to work at it anymore, I'm happy.

Thats way better than what this gun is designed and intended to be used for and I would be very happy wirh groups like that. Of course, reloaders being reloaders we cant help tweeking the rounds just a little or trying a different powder and boolit just to see what if :drinks:

[Bucking the Tiger]

10 yards is a good reference point. I owned a Walther PPK in .380( American, made in Alabama) for years and shot much longer distances with it. I would shoot at 12oz cans at 40 and 50 yards. The PPK was easily accurate enough( fixed barrel) but was a real challenge due to small size, small sights, so-so trigger. i have noticed that a proper grip is really important with small autos and snub nose revolvers. Recoil is not like a Magnum, but can be sharp due to fast powder and not a lot to hold on to.Having a firm, steady grip and maintaining it through recoil is the key. Having said all this, pocket pistols are designed for short distances.

[TCLouis]

If it is a defensive caliber and defensive gun is there any need (other than fun) to shoot/practice much beyond 10 yards?

[Outpost75]

Last week I popped a rock chuck with a Sig P238 .380. It was a one shot kill at just under 200 yards (about 197 under).

You sure it was a rockchuck, or an M151 in camouflage? 200 yards with a popgun, you should go to Camp Perry, I think your Barr&Stroud is out of calibration...... 197 under, about 10 feet, sure sounds right, ya got me fair and square until I reax it again. Now ROTFLMAO!

[jonp]

Last week I popped a rock chuck with a Sig P238 .380. It was a one shot kill at just under 200 yards (about 197 under).
That is impressive! Last year I shot a moose at a lasered distance of 361yrds with my Ruger Single Six. Of course I was using the 22mag cylinder but I still thought hitting him in the left eye was pretty good. Just a little disappointed though as I was aiming for the right eye.

[MtGun44]

I have a Keltec P3AT that has NEVER, EVER failed to function. My 9mm PF9
has not liked my handloads very much, but is 100% with factory ammo NOW. I think
it has a tight throat, and I haven't spent any time fiddlling, just buy Win white
box for practice in that one gun. I did have one PF9 mag that would jam occasionally
when new, swapped it out and the two I use now are 100% for several years.

I always wonder at the guys that proclaim them junk, whether they live on
a different planet or were just unlucky. Not saying they are not telling the
truth, just wonder why so many have mostly good experiences. Folks on
the various forums report good results with sending mags or guns back if they
do have problems, but I have never actually needed that service, so no
personal experience. Certainly they are not the finest firearms every made,
but I sure don't think they are junk. The PF9 is in my pocket right now.

My brother has a P3AT with pretty much the same success. P3AT is not
a target gun and has very snappy recoil, but I have let a lot of people
shoot it, trying to see if different grips or hand size might make it
malfunction. Nothing so far.

PF9 is, again, not a target gun but MUCH better sights than the P3AT and
windage adjustable and elevation shimmable rear.

Bill

[jonp]

There are a number of kel-tec fans out there but I am not one of them. Maybe I had bad luck but when 2 identical pistols bought from shops 100 miles apart both fail to function it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is my experience only but I do not recommend them to anybody. There are too many good firearms out there to mess with them imho
Btw both were p3at's. Neither would chamber rounds or if chambered fire them. I, of course, tried several manu's and then sent them back and they still never worked. Same problem as if they were never worked on. Did I mention it took almost 6 mths to get them back?

[onehousecat]

I used to have a Mauser HSC (lost in a burglary). It was surprisingly accurate. Like one of the previous posters, I have also shot at disk blades. At 60 to 70 yards, I got to the point of being disappointed when I missed. Eventually I am going to replace the gun, as it was extremely reliable and not finicky about ammunition.

[jimb16]

My P3AT is my main carry gun. I shoots extremely well and has never misfired. I've put thousands of rounds thru it. I doesn't even hiccup with light handloads. Even with excess oil on the slide, it functioned in 15 degree weather albeit slowly. It is every bit as reliable as my Colt Government .380.

[supv26]

My NAA Guardian 380 is very good at 25 yards. I usually set up a 10" x12" steel target and can hit it every time with factory and my reloads. I'm waiting on my mold and I will start casting for it too.

[fredj338]

The LCP is not a shooters gun, it's never going to be a PPK or sim. I think 10yds is a practical max. I can get hits on a man size sil @ 25yds, but it's work. Poor trigger, even poorer sights, no it's a belly gun, point & shoot.

[fredj338]

If it is a defensive caliber and defensive gun is there any need (other than fun) to shoot/practice much beyond 10 yards?

This statement tells me you are new to the entire idea of a SD pistol. If you only shoot @ 21ft & less, you are doomed to fail as the distance increases. I have rooms in my house that are more than 20ft across. Think about the Aurora theater shooting or even being car jacked in a parking garage. Front to back of many cars is 20ft. Put two together, now you are 50ft away. You want to trust you don't run out of ammo before solving that problem? In any gunfight, distance should be your friend, so practice accordingly. I routinely practice from contact to 25yds. Occasionally I will shoot further just to keep that skill intact, sometimes a lot further.

[myg30]

Ditto what fred said above. You never know when you might have to shoot that distance and its good to find out at the range that you can do it if necessary. We are not talking about a hostage situation here either. I think a real trigger and sites would entertain that situation much better.

Mike

[HollowPoint]

I sold my Kimber Eclipse 45 cal. carry gun in order to buy a smaller carry gun. I ended up buying one of the KelTec P3AT's with a good chunk of change left over. It hasn't given me any problems other than the invisible sights on this little gun.

I'm going to be installing a set of home-made sights on it in the near future. I also plan to do a trigger job on it that will shorten the throw of the trigger a little. I came across a how-to video on this subject a while back; just haven't gotten around to doing it yet.

Before buying this little gun, folks would tell me that the 380 caliber wasn't much of a man-stopper. The 45 caliber I sold off wasn't much of a man-stopper either. That's because it sat in my car or under my pillow whenever I went out. For a carry gun, I just quit carrying it because it got to be to cumbersome.

Now with this little 380, if I ever got in a situation where I had to use it I'd probably get shot because I forget I have it on me. It's so light weight compared to that larger (midsized) Kimber that the ring that carries my keys is heavier than the 380.

I shoot the Lee 100 grain cast bullets out of it without any malfunctions. I even hollow pointed one of the cavities of that twenty dollar bullet mold just to bring the weight of these cast bullets down a little. (more like 95 grains now) The hollow pointed cast bullets shoot just as reliably.

Some have eluded to the recoil as being annoying on these light-weight guns. I don't think it is. My hands are neither to big or to small so I don't have any problems with griping this pistol. I carry it with store-bought defensive ammo in the magazines and practice with cast bullets. I have no complaints about this little gun.

No matter what choice of gun a person decides on, there will always be others who's experience with the same gun is a negative one. Could just be the luck of the draw. We pays our money and we takes our chances.

HollowPoint

[jonp]

I agree with you, hollowpoint. I may just have been very unlucky. What really turned me off was sending them back and several months later getting guns back that still did not work.

[MtGun44]

As HPt discovered, The first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun."

Do whatever is necessary for YOU to avoid violating Rule One. Caliber
and all other issues are secondary.

Bill

[jimb16]

If you can consistantly hit your target at the LONGEST range you could expect to need to shoot, you don't need to worry about hitting at shorter ranges!

[singleshot]

If you can consistantly hit your target at the LONGEST range you could expect to need to shoot, you don't need to worry about hitting at shorter ranges!

I have to question this statement. This logic seems sound, however, the farther away your target is, the more time you have to shoot and the more calm you're likely to be. There is no substitute for instinctive point-shooting. Anyone who hasn't tried hitting a target, at even 7 feet, without lining up the sights and getting a shot off as fast as possible from a draw is likely in for a surprise. My 2 cents.

[1Shirt]

Some good responses. Particularly like the "shoot and scoot" philosophy, which I think is practical in the large percentage of cases where cartridges under the power of 357M are in play. It is noteworthy from my observations over the years that the majority of wounding with handguns are not fatal, but are at least debilitating for a period of hospital time. Of course there are fatal one shot kills even with small under powered ctgs like 25ACP, but they are truly the exception rather than the rule.
1Shirt!

[fredj338]

If you can consistantly hit your target at the LONGEST range you could expect to need to shoot, you don't need to worry about hitting at shorter ranges!

I tend to agree with this. At distance beyond 10ft, no reason to not at least get the gun up to where you can see it align with the target. Good form allows one to shoot in total darkness out to 21ft & get hits. Getting the front sight on the target allows you to get better hits.

[dkf]

I usually shoot my LCP at 7 yds but throw 10 yards in there. The .380 is already pretty marginal as a SD round so I really don't see the need to stretch the distance out any farther.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I don't practice any "defensive" shooting beyond 7 yards. I've tried 25 yds from a rest, and got about a 12 inch group. I have shot at some rocks on the backstop, which is just beyond the 50 yd line, and can usually keep all about 3 ft or closer. It would keep a varmint moving. This is all with my Kel-Tek P3AT. With my PA-63 (a Walther PP clone), I can do much better.

[Eddie2002]

I've been target shooting with a Ruger LCP and after a few hundred rounds found that my pistol shoots almost 4 inches low at 10 yards. Took a while to figure out where the bullets were hitting. Because of that I'm working on the point and shoot instead of trusting the factory sights. At leastI'm getting on paper, bought the pistol used and am wondering if the funny sights is why it was traded in. The LCP doesn't seem to care what I feed it and I've found that 2.6 grains of Bullseye under a 92 grain round nose cast bullet tames the recoil down enough to make it a fun gun to shoot. I found that I need to trim the fingernail on the trigger finger way down or else it feels like I've been smacking it with a hammer after about a box of ammo. At 10 yards I'm getting a 6 inch wide group about 10 to 12 inches long. I'm guessing the verticle spread is due to the hard trigger pull and I'm moving as I pull. I polished the feed and slide with 600 grit paper which really helped smooth out the action, it was pretty rough when i got it. It's the first pocket pistol I've owned so I can't compare it to any of the others. So far I like it but need more range time. Can't see why it can't be accurate at 25 yards if I can hold it steady enough.

[RobsTV]

With my S&W Bodyguard 380, I would say 25 yards is about max, although I have not shot it at that range. 3" groups, off hand at 10 yards, is pretty normal using Lee 356-102-1R boolits. But the most fun is when boating in the gulf, boat bouncing up and down, shooting at floating cans bouncing up and down, usually hits and sinks can in less than 3 shots from about 20 feet. Moving targets are a great test.

I wouldn't want to carry something that required waiting for the badguy to be right on top of you before you had a chance of hitting target. Which is why I normally pocket carry a S&W Shield 40 which is good for sub 5" groups at 25 yards (and still tweaking).

Once you are in a situation where you wish you had 25 yard accuracy, you will appreciate the need 50 yard handguns. (skin head nut job in a car trying to kill us on our motorcycle).

[fcvan]

My first .380 was a Beretta M70s. It was very accurate and a great shooter. A buddy was gifted a M71 in 22lr and wanted a pair so I sold it to him. Chewing up the 5x was a piece of cake and i regularly shot it a ranges of 30-40 yards.

Years later, I handled an FEG PA 63 in .380 and it felt so much like the M70s that I had to have it. The double action pull is NYPD style atrocious but the single action is crisp and light. I can fix the double pull but have elected to leave it alone. Very accurate, very pleasant to shoot. It was as accurate as the Beretta.

A couple years ago, the wife bought me a Taurus TCP 738. On the first trip out I was shooting soda cans at 25 yards. The sights on the Taurus are pretty small but they are regulated to my standard load. That load is a Lee 356-102 1R over 2.9 grains of Bullseye. The boolit flies 25 yards and beyond but it is still limited by available energy.

The little gun shoots where you aim it. That being said, I do most of my training at between 3 and 15 yards. With the little gun I figure finding cover or an exit is more important than engaging a hostile. I like what an earlier poster said about 'shoot and scoot.'

These little guns are about defense, not offense. One other thing I like about the little guns is the spare mags are small too. It just makes sense to carry a spare or two. On a summer day I can carry the little gun in the pocket of my shorts. In the winter, in a coat pocket.

I usually carry a Glock or a 1911 when clothing allows, and my wardrobe generally allows. If carrying a second gun it is usually a .380 pistol. I've had people scoff at me for carrying two on occasion, albeit rare occasion, but it did come in handy twice. Being able to tool up the person I was with helped in controlling the situation. The wife also has a TCP 738 and she practices with it frequently. She doesn't have her carry license so I sometimes am carrying for her, I'm just not carrying hers, it's pink.

[mpmarty]

I have a PA63 which is a clone of a PPK in 9mm Makaov. Shot a coyote at 75 yards last year with it. No problem and Mr yote was DRT.

[rintinglen]

I differentiate the Mini's, like the Diamondback, the LCP, The TCP, and whoever else I"m forgetting from the larger PPk's etc. My PPK can shoot 4 inch groups at 60 feet, my Beretta 84 can do the same, or perhaps a smidge better. I could never do that with an LCP. It's too small for my hand. for me, it gives the illusion of being armed. I have a Colt Pocket LIte that is almost a Mini, but which I have not yet shot enough to make a serious judgement on.

[Digital Dan]

Always thought muzzle to skin contact a good range for the .380 but of course that can be stretched a little with skill and cunning.

[45 2.1]

There are a lot of different 380's out there... some are small and some are not. Some of those are not capable of much past throwing distance and some you could target shoot with. Most of the problem is lack of use........ You guys need to learn what the little pop guns want and then try them at some "past your limit" distances. You might be really astonished what they can do.

[NoZombies]

Well, I posted earlier in the thread and said I hadn't tried the Sig P238 past 25 yards. Now I have.

I was curious, based on responses on this thread, just what the little gun could do, so when at the rifle range last week, I took aim at the 200 yard steel silhouette. It took me 3 rounds to walk it onto target, but the rest of that magazine, and the entirety of the next one were all an the target. I was surprised.

[dondiego]

Now that is what I would consider some excellent shooting NoZombies!

[MtGun44]

Used to do that with a .45 ACP. 18" gong at 200, standing. If I couldn't get 4 of 7, I was unhappy,
and once I had the sight picture (holding up front site, like Elmer taught me) if I couldn't hit it
every time, I was having a bad day. Today that range is closed to pistols and my eyes are not what
the were 30 yrs ago, not sure if I could still do it and can't try on that range anymore. If you think,
that is only 9 MOA, so not all that amazing, really, about like 2.5" at 25 yds, which I CAN still do
from standing.

Bill

[NoZombies]

The reality is, that shooting I did wasn't much of a feat. I'm not a particularly good shot, but the gun is accurate enough to be surprising.

My point isn't anything about maximum range, and certainly not about effective range, it's just that with a little kentucky windage, you can probably hit something the size of a man from a fair ways off.

[45 2.1]

you can probably hit something the size of a man from a fair ways off.

You would be correct and that fair ways off can be a lot farther than most people here realize. All it takes is practice from a solid position.

[grampa243]

i shot a S&W BODYGUARD® 380 that a friend has.

at 50 yards we were able to keep the shots in an IDPA target. with most of them in the 0 and 1 zones.

hoping the P238 that my wife has on layaway will be as good for her.

[MtGun44]

Yes, it is eye opening to see what can be done if the gun has a decent trigger
and sights. The ranges where hits are possible would surprise many. And it
is FUN! ;-)

Bill

[Jazzcat]

I have a Bersa Thunder .380(a PPK clone) that shoots very well (can hit a soda can at 25 yards). I use an IWB holster and it carries very well. While I would prefer a 9mm or, better yet, a .45acp, I find it comforting to have something rather than nothing while I save up for an XD S.

Very good luck with 105 gr. SWC over 2.9 gr of Bullseye for practice rounds. Hornady Personal Defense loads for carry. So far the Bersa has shot everything I have put through it with no problems. It fits my hand well and the recoil is very manageable. So was the price ($300). Certainly worth a look if you are set on a .380.

[opos]

Had a little Bersa 380 and figured about 5- 7 yards for it...I had many issues with it...disconnect spring popping out...failure to feed...etc (some might have been limp wrist but not for the whole time I had it..as far as I was concerned it wasn't much of a gun....I also had a little Commie Bloc Makarov with the higher powered (slighly) 9x18 Makarov and it was really accurate....always felt it was twice the pistol the Bersa was at any distance and shot it at 10 and 15 yards all the time with good results.

[Capt Mike]

Is there anything that can be done to improve the trigger pull on the LCP?

[olereb]

I have a Bersa Thunder Plus that blows the bullseye out at 25yrds with factory ammo,trigger isn't exactly great but once I got used to it the thing is great.