Need some advice regarding 1911 accuracy

[dmclark523]

I'm trying to figure out at this point if either my setup is flawed, or simply if I need more practice.

RIA 1911 .45acp. Barrel diameter of .450. Its a 452-230gn Lee TL design shown here: LINK (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/517501/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl452-230-2r-45-acp-45-auto-rim-45-colt-long-colt-452-diameter-230-grain-tumble-lube-2-ogive-radius)

My lube is 45/45/10, and my powder is Accurate #2. (I've also done Accurate #5 with similar results) My best load is right around 5.4gn for AA#2 (8.3gn for AA#5)

My usual process is to TL, size to .452, TL again lightly, and load. For THIS image below, I simply lubed and loaded without sizing.

From about 35ft:

75191

For comparison, I also loaded a mag with my usual process of lubing, sizing, and lubing. However, It was even worse than this so I didn't take a picture.


Any thoughts? Where do I go from here? Or does this look completely reasonable? There is hardly any leading in my barrel... just a smear.

[luky-dude]

What can you do with good factory ammo????

[rsrocket1]

Looks like you might be anticipating recoil. Try shooting from a rest and seeing how the bullets shoot. I'm guessing the target is not supported by a cardboard backing which is why you have odd looking long shaped tears in the target and not keyholing.

[dmclark523]

With good factor ammo, last month I shot a group that was inside the outer orange layer. On that white and then in/around the bullseye from the same distance. Any idea how I can improve? A better powder, different mold?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Any thoughts? Where do I go from here? Or does this look completely reasonable? There is hardly any leading in my barrel... just a smear.[/QUOTE]

well if thats at 50 yards it looks good but if its at like 15 feet no its not
get some factory ammo and try it let a friend shoot it might just be the
gun not you or try a pistol rest

[PuppetZ]

Have you checked the diameter of this boolit. I had one of those that cast way undersized, sent it back and got a replacement that still cast undersized. Didn't send that one back though because I was not blowing another 12 bucks of shipping on a 26 dollars mold. I heard these TL designs are quite notorious for being cut too small.

[dmclark523]

The boolit diameter is actually just fine, coming in at .452 about 8 times out of 10. Perhaps I am over-thinking it. I guess the only way of knowing is really doing a side-by-side comparison under the same conditions with factory ammo.

[dmclark523]

Could it possibly be that my powder is just cheap? Accurate powder is not exactly the best out there... I'm wondering if something with a better reputation would possibly give better results?

[375RUGER]

You're doing load development, are you shooting from a rest? If you want to know what the gun will do then shoot from a rest. If you want to know what the load will do then shoot from a rest.
Is the firing pin hitting the center of the primer or is it off center?

[dmclark523]

Firing pin is dead center and this is not from a rest... I will have to try that out. Thanks for the advice!

[MtGun44]

"powder is cheap" LOL! That is one excuse I have not previously heard.

Not the quality of the powder, but there are loads that work best. Also,
boolit designs that are "known good". A bit more or less of that powder,
or a different burning rate may make a difference. .45 ACP match loads
tend to use fast powders, but Unique is slow and also works well.

Try a Lyman 452460 mold or H&G 68 mold, conventional lube, sized
.452 over 3.8-4.3 gr of Bullseye or Tightgroup. Use matching headstamp
brass, consistent CASE length and set LOA to just put the shoulder to
touch the lands of the rifling. Taper crimp as a separate operation to
about .465 to .470. These loads WILL shoot very well.

With the mule snot designs and lube you are on your own, plowing new
ground. If you want a shortcut, the recipe is above. There may well
be a way to make the TL stuff work well, but it is not as well known or
practiced.

Best of luck. A good 1911, NOT a match gun, should be able to do
2.5" at 25 yds pretty reliably. Match guns can do 1.0-1.5" groups at
the same distance, or some even hold that at double the range.

No offense, but I always say that MY personal biggest barrier to
better groups is "the jerk behind the trigger". More practice, better
trigger pull (lots of dry fire!!), good glasses or a shooting aperture
(like Lyman Hawkeye) and a solid position can help a lot.

Best of luck.

Bill

[DrCaveman]

When i was working up my first 45 cast handloads about a year ago, and i tried "forcing" my loads to work-with powders that i had on hand- my results looked about like yours. After a bunch of internet and load manual perusal, i saw a very consistent support for Bullseye and also Titegroup to a lesser extent.

I swallowed my pride and tried the "proven" loads using Bullseye, and guess what? my accuracy improved a bunch. Then more practice, and with improved confidence i feel that i really gained shooting skill during that preiod. So i went back to loading bench with a new attitude & approach, and now can get my oddball loads to match the accuracy of the proven Bullseye loads.

Fwiw i use ramshot competition. It is soft shooting and clean, only drawback i have found is a low velocity ceiling compared to a lot of powders. But i can hit 900 fps with an h&g 68 200 swc no prob and also 800-820 with 230 ball.

Try some load very well proven...like, decades and decades proven...then go back and try your chosen load. In my case i will blame the early failures to the "jerk behind the trigger" and also the "brazen newbie behind the reloading press". Time and practice are very valuable and since you cast and reload you should have some of both.

[Scharfschuetze]

Has your pistol shot better before or is this a new pistol?

If it's a new pistol without a track record of grouping well, you might check how well the barrel bushing, slide, barrel link, etc. are fitted up. If all is well here, as suggested above, I would try a different bullet.

My most accurate and useful 45 ACP loads have generally been with almost any 200 grain SWC cast bullet (WW-air cooled) or commercial cast 200 grain SWC with one large lube groove loaded to 850 to 900 fps. They just poleaxe jack rabits and such and hold nice groups on paper. I don't have any experience with your powder, but I'm sure that is not the problem given it's good reputation. Most of my 45 ACP loads over the years have been based on Olin's 231 powder with standard LP primers and a taper crimp if that's any help.

[Old Caster]

My first guess is that you are not shooting the gun up to its potential. 2nd is the bullet is not cast well, isn't a good design either, or tumble lube isn't up to the task. I don't have a third but it is possible that your gun isn't good enough quality however I seriously doubt it. The thought that the powder isn't good enough is not correct. First find a way to shoot the gun accurately where a Ransom Rest would be the best. Next would be a bench rest position with a scope and third is bench with the iron sights and get someone that you can trust to shoot it well.

[waksupi]

Trigger control is the biggest gremlin in handguns.

[leadman]

How does the inside of the barrel look? I had one and it had the worst brand new barrel I ever saw. I did get it to shoot decent after some work on it.
Accurate powder is a good quality powder and should shoot just fine. Make sure that you are not overcrimping the case. This sizes down the boolit.

[bowenrd]

45 ACP should shoot into one ragged hole. It is a very accurate round and easy to reload. Keep working with different powders and get more trigger time. It will all come together.

[Shiloh]

+1 A decent trigger makes a huge difference. Mine would be able to shoot the center out of that target, radiating outwards and still well within the white at 35'
From a rest, the center only would be shot out. Trigger work, Bomar sights, Ed Brown or Wilson Combat sear spring tweaked for a crisp break. I had a machinist tweak my LEE .45 SWC. Removed half the bevel base, and I removed the rest with an 11mm stone setting burr.
It is a virtual H&G 68 clone. Drops at 201 gr. This Boolit shows REAL promise. I am pleased.

Shiloh

[243winxb]

This >
Try a Lyman 452460 mold or H&G 68 mold, conventional lube, sized
.452 over 3.8-4.3 gr of Bullseye or Tightgroup. Use matching headstamp
brass, consistent CASE length and set LOA to just put the shoulder to
touch the lands of the rifling. Taper crimp as a separate operation to
about .465 to .470. These loads WILL shoot very well.
If the firearm is not "match grade" groups can be large. Some old GI models shot 8" at 25 yards from a rest.

[steve4102]

If you are going to test the accuracy of your handloads or your pistol you need to remove as much "Human" factor as possible. That would be a "Solid" bench, a stable chair and a good pistol rest or sand bag set up at about 25 yards.
If you want to test the accuracy of the shooter, load your mags with the most accurate ammo found in the above paragraph. Start your testing at 21 feet and work your way out to 25 or even 50 yards.
It is very difficult to test the accuracy of handloads without a good rest, especially if you are a relatively new and inexperienced shooter.

[tomme boy]

Don't size the boolit. Tumble lube them 2 times and load them. That was the only thing that I could do to get that boolit to shoot.

[MaineJim]

Even a loosely fitted 1911 will put most of its shots in the inner orange square at that distance,it takes thousands of rounds to became a good pistol shooter,even from a bench.Like it was mentioned before ,I would try some match ammo and your loads from a bench and see if there is any difference.
You need to establish the accuracy potential of the gun with good factory match ammo first, so you can compare your own loads against it.
Accurate number 2 should be fine,i used it a while back with the 200 grain TL boolit and it shot real well,i have the same mold as the one you are using now but with conventional lube grooves and it performs real well out of a Kimber 1911 as well as a Glock 30.

[FLHTC]

Rock Island has different grades of 1911s and most likely the accuracy changes among them. Barrel bushing fit, firing technique, bullet and load choice, barrel quality all can play a part in your accuracy. I've seen WWII 1911s that would't hit an automobile at 25 yards due to being so sloppy but have also shot high end guns that would cluster shots into 2" at 25 yards. You might be getting all you're going to get from your gun until you start replacing parts.

[44man]

TL boolits shoot better with a regular lube, I have good luck with them. Even if you need to lube with your fingers and not size, give it a try.

[Char-Gar]

Trigger control is the biggest gremlin in handguns.

Absolute pure truth!

[Jim]

If you are going to test the accuracy of your handloads or your pistol you need to remove as much "Human" factor as possible. That would be a "Solid" bench, a stable chair and a good pistol rest or sand bag set up at about 25 yards. ..... It is very difficult to test the accuracy of handloads without a good rest, especially if you are a relatively new and inexperienced shooter.

There ya' go!

I recently purchased my first 1911, a Rock Island GI Series midsize. I sought out guidance from the more experienced 1911 shooters, worked up a load and shot it at 15 yds. from a rest.

It shoots exactly to point of aim and turned in a good group. However, I ain't got a snowball's chance in a brick oven of shootin' a group like this without a rest.

75210

[prs]

Good advice above from folks far more advanced than I in this area of shooting, but overlooked one glaring possibility that ruins my accuracy with very similar loadings and that same boolit. Doing pretty much what you described, using straight LLA or Recluse modified LLA, that boolit over 5gr Unique or Win 231 starts-out shooting just fine. After a magazine (7 rounds) it begins to open-up the group, after 2 magazines that opening is really noticeable, and after a 50 to 100 round of plinking I could not hit the wall of a barn even if I were inside! Leading galore in my SR1911. I have not had much luck with tumble lube on any boolit loaded from starting levels up to mid range of the charts, they all leaded the barrel to some large degree and accuracy goes to Hyades in a handbasket pretty quick. I have not tried lubing that TL design with NRA 50:50, but doing so with two different Lyman moulds, the 225 hard ball clone and the old SWC 200 grain let both of those shoot superbly, more accurate than my meager skill can wring-out off hand and ZERO leading. I don't shoot off sand bags or rests and that is a flaw I may never cure, just not appealing to me. I really wish tumble lube agreed with my two 1911s, but neither shoots worth a cr@p with it with any 5 boolit designs I tried. So I am using my trusty SLOW 450 to lube for 45acp. Arrrrrrrgggg.

prs

[mpmarty]

My RIA "tactical" 5" 1911 groups them just fine. I've shot IPSC with the LEE tumble lube boolits for years and they are great performers with just the LEE push through sizer (.452) and 45/45/10 mule snot mixture applied before sizing and after. No leading and solid accuracy. Don't blame the pistol until you've mastered accurate pistol shooting with lots of practice. AA#2 is an excellent choice for this application.

[Char-Gar]

We have been loading cast bullets in 45 ACP cases for use in the 1911 pistol for well over a hundred years now. There are no secrets left to discover. It is a straightforward and rather simple process, yet folks continue to try and find new ways to do an old thing. The result often is inferior performance.

I am not going to waste my time going through a primer on how to load ammo for this pistol again.

Shooting a handgun while more difficult that a rifle or shotgun, is not as hard as learning to type or ride a bicycle. There are however some basics (grip, sight picture, breath control and trigger control) that must be practiced and mastered. A good quality revolver or autopistol in 22 Long Rifle is perhaps the best teacher. One should not move on to a 1911 pistol until they have the basics down cold.

[fredj338]

You need a benchmark for accuracy. What is the best you & the gun will shoot with decent factory ammo? My stock Springfield will do 2" @ 50ft all day with cast 200gr loads over WST. Many have complained about the TL bullet design & accuracy. I don't know if it's the micro grooves deforming or what. I have no issues w/ most conventional groove design bullets in any of my 5 diff 1911s.

[EddieNFL]

IME any suitable powder will deliver better than combat accuracy (provided the bullet and firearm are up to the task). http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/EddieF/Target1.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/EddieF/media/Target1.jpg.html)
This was offhand at 25 yards. Over the years I've learned 231, 452AA, 540, 473AA, Bullseye, Clays, WST, AutoComp, 310, 320, and Titegroup will all do the same (I probably forgot some). It will typically be the bullet or the shooter long before the powder or gun.

[waksupi]

The inconstancy of the target tells me you really need to have someone who is an experienced pistol shot test for accuracy. The dispersion of the shots tell me your grip and trigger work are the biggest problem. Just like any other shooting discipline, not everyone can do it without some coaching and training. If you can't take the human factor out, you can't effectively test your loads. After that, it just takes thousands of rounds to gain the muscle memory. For a .45 acp, loading one round in the magazine at a time is the best way to start. Otherwise spray and pray seems to enter into the game until you gain control of your firearm.

[Foto Joe]

I won't re-hash the suggestions above (all good) but I might suggest something a little different. Not knowing your experience level I'll make the assumption that you and your 1911 are not old friends. A 1911 can have a pretty serious "bark" to it, as such flinching is something that can and will absolutely destroy your accuracy. What I would suggest before you start changing over your entire loading operation to different powders and primers or buying new and expensive molds is to do some stability training.

Take a friend or spouse with you to the range. Have the "helper" load and chamber the magazine with only one boolit or no boolit. The gun gets handed to you safed and cocked and you have no idea if it's going to go bang or click. When it goes click pay attention to whether or not you flinched, chances are you did. Once you get comfortable with the idea that you really have no idea whether it's going to fire your accuracy should improve dramatically. It's human nature to anticipate the recoil and it takes a LOT of training, especially with a weapon that has the potential to have a good kick, to let that anticipation get the best of you.

Relax and enjoy, some of the best shooters in history used what we would call today some of the worst powder, primer boolit combinations. Learn the gun and once you relax and get comfortable with it your accuracy should improve. Incidentally, this isn't going to happen overnite.

[dondiego]

I have a dummy round blindly loaded into the magazine with the other 6 rounds and I do not know at which point it will chamber. When it does get chambered and you jerk the trigger, you will know a lot. For revolvers, I only load 5 rounds into a 6 round cylinder, spin it and close the cylinder without knowing when the empty chamber will come up. This is great training and will help with your trigger control. This technique has greatly improved my shooting abilities.

When I got my first 1911 I had groups like yours. I handed that pistol to a good shooter and his one ragged hole group convinced me it was not a problem with gun or ammo!

[EddieNFL]

I have a dummy round blindly loaded into the magazine with the other 6 rounds and I do not know at which point it will chamber.

We occasionally do this in IDPA matches to force a tap/rack/bang situation. You'd be amazed at how many muzzles dip down when the shooter hits the dummy.

[eljefe]

Just an FYI, Grafs has the following in stock...

https://www.grafs.com/dealer/product/205355

https://www.grafs.com/dealer/product/205104

https://www.grafs.com/dealer/product/207817

[MrWolf]

Didn't notice but those links are for wholesalers only - requires a password.

[eljefe]

Grafs has the Lee six cavity 200 grain swc mould in stock.
They also have the mould handles and the top punch, as well.