alloy for a vintage .38-55

[samwithacolt]

My thanks to everyone here for helping me get this far. I am restoring
an 1894 .38-55 made in 1895. It was in bad shape and has very weak rifling.
First my lee 250 gr bullets were tumbling, so i lapped the mold to
a big .381. Now i have nice round holes but 8" groups amd
wild velocity spread. I"m using straight WW"s.
Should i go softer? I have some pure lead, but what"s a good mix for this old girl
to run at 12-1300 fps? Your help and advice appreciated.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Pure or close to pure in a 1:30 ratio is what I am thinking. A pure slug wrapped in paper might work better.

[Outpost75]

I agree in the 1:30 tin/lead and as large a bullet diameter as your chamber safely permits.

[samwithacolt]

Thanks guys, i will make some muffins with recovered
shotgun slugs and lead free sodder. I"m wondering if they might
drop a tad bigger too.

[Nobade]

Bet it is a lot more accurate with soft lead and black powder.....

-Nobade

[northmn]

Bet it is a lot more accurate with soft lead and black powder.....

-Nobade
I was thinking the same thing. BP will "slug" a 1-30 lead bullet to the bore. Swiss is generally considered the better one.
Many swear by unique as a powder for the 38-55.
DP

[john hayslip]

If you have a rough bore I'd suggest getting some Dyna-Cote ceramic stuff you can use to line the barrel with and see if it won't smooth it up. It's a liquid you put in with a patch. Let it harden so it can fill the low spots and seal with a bullet fired through it. The instructions say a jacketed bullet but I called and asked about doing a muzzleloader where you use a lead bullet only and the gentleman I talked to said surely as he'd done it himself. I think I've got the name of the product right. It's about $50 for a bottle that will supposedly do 4 to 5 rifles.

[samwithacolt]

Thanks, but it's more that the rifling looks weak. The
bore does'nt look too bad otherwise. I tried some with black
powder, lot's of fun but no accuracy with ww boolits. I need to go range mining.
Pity nobody makes a hollow based .38-55 mold.

[Springfield]

50/50 pure/WW works in mine with .380 245 grain bullets, with ffg.

[smithywess]

Your bullet, of whatever alloy, using smokeless powder, should be one to two thousandths of an inch greater than the slugged groove diameter measured with a micrometer. That you've improved your point of impact hits by eliminating the tumbling speaks to the increase in bullet diameter that you mould lapping achieved. It still might not be enough. Slugging your barrel will give you the correct groove diameter from which you can extrapolate your required bullet diameter.

Apart from the bullet you make no mention of your powder load. It's important to try to fill the case as much as possible with your recommended weight of powder. If you have a lot of air space overtop of your powder then some would take up that air space with a dacron filler. I wouldn't try 'lining' your barrel with proprietary fluids but a metallic reline, if required, is fine. Your 1300 f.p.s. is a good safe speed. Work on correcting your bullet diameter, bullet lube, and getting a good case filling powder charge (from a recognized powder manual) rather than worrying about the alloy. In my view for these slower velocity bullets I think an alloy of 1:20/ tin:lead is fine. The only other thing that might ultimately help accuracy in a washed out barrel would be to shoot a gas checked cast bullet or even a jacketed bullet. Sometimes that works. Now if that was an 1893 Marlin you might be saved by the Ballard cut rifling which can often provide astounding accuracy even in barrels looking like sewer pipes !

[Chill Wills]

I would bet a Nickel that if you looked at the barrel muzzle and especially down inside the first inch of the muzzle, you will see the almost total lack of rifling. Were you to cerosafe cast it and measure the cast (this is not needed) you would also see even the major diameter, that is the grooves have been worn. This is due to many of these early BP era Winchester lever rifles getting cleaned from the muzzle. Cleaning rod ware is the problem. IF this is the case, this old rifle barrel does not have anything left to give. I have seen some bad barrels, dark and thin rifling shoot fairly well but not with bad muzzles.

I have had any number of these early rifles so have some experience with them in this condition. About the best load you can try is a very LOW pressure loading of some fast powder like Unique ...... BUT in the 7.5 grain load range or less and with large diameter bullets like you described you can now make. Soft - hard alloy.... not sure it maters too much but try each. With a large bullet, you are not trying nor relying on bullet obturation. It should be large enough already. If not, make it larger or shoot black, which might produce too much pressure for accuracy. The idea here is to not have much pressure behind the bullet near the muzzle end of the barrel that well get around the bullet and throw it off during its trip through the unsupported exit. If you are hoping for accuracy in the 1100 FPS or greater velocity range, I would bet it ainta gona happen. Keep it slow and maybe!

Good luck with it, Michael Rix

[samwithacolt]

I can just chamber the bullet as it is now so i can't go bigger without a reaming job.
My best accuracy was with 10 gr unique which was in the 1100 fps ballpark.
I made up some loads from published data with R7 and 2400 but they were over 1400 fps
so I will pull the rest of them and go lighter and use a lead bullet.
How much can I compress black powder? I could only get 40 gr in the case without
cramming it in.

[Chill Wills]

I would think your 10 gr load of unique is more like 1300fps or so. Just my guess.

So, Unique was a step in the right direction....

If you want try that lighter charge of Unique I think it might even be better. If you do find some accuracy with a very light load, you wont have a powerhouse load and rifle to shoot but accuracy is more useful and fun than a spray and pray load.

[samwithacolt]

Velocity varied wildly with everything, making me think I have several issues.
The lapped mold is throwing 2 different bullets,
the lead is too hard,
my loads are too fast.
I'm going to make up some pure lead/tin and cast half with just one mold cavity and the half with the other. If one side shoots better than the other, then I will have to make a sizer.
I will reduce all my loads as well.

[marvelshooter]

Bet it is a lot more accurate with soft lead and black powder.....

-Nobade I am also trying to get an Winchester .38-55 to shoot. With help from members here I have achieved marginal success. The bullet that shoots the best is .381 diameter. Only about half of my loaded rounds will chamber with this size. So tell me more about black powder and soft lead. Actually I get the soft lead part but have never shot black powder in a cartridge round. What kind? How much? I am currently loading 10 grains of Unique and have a less than perfect bore.

[Nobade]

First, measure the inside of some fired cases to see how big a bullet you need. A nice slip fit is good. For lever gun rounds I cheat and duplex load for them since it is hard to wipe between shots. 10% smokeless works well, I use AA5744, IMR4227, 2400, or something in that burn rate. I will throw that first, then use enough FFg black to provide maybe 1/8" compression with the bullet seated to where it needs to be. A card wad between the powder and bullet is beneficial. Bullets need to be lubed with a black powder compatible lube. That is about all there is to it, with duplex loading you don't worry about foul - out and just go shoot. If the bullets are soft, without any antimony, (just lead and tin) they will seal the bore at the moment of the shot and be accurate. The groove diameter doesn't matter too much. Use a bullet design like the 248 gr. Lyman one, with plenty of big grease grooves.

BTW, I shoot a .366" pure lead bullet patched to .373" in my 38-55 Handi Rifle over black powder, and it shoots incredibly well. The bullet will slug up to seal the bore if you do it right. Barrel is .373"X.381".

-Nobade

[samwithacolt]

Thanks Nobade, awesome info. I have Wonder lube for my flintlock, would that be better than my allox/minwax mix? Can I just shoot duplex loads and then clean the bore when I'm done? I like the idea of hunting with a 113 yr old rifle with a soft lead bullet and black powder!

[OverMax]

Rifle with poor rifling. You'll get tired of trying to find the right bullet/powder combo. You should consider sending out and having its bore relined back to original spec's or bored & relined to an altogether different cartridge usage. (If your intent on making a shooter out of it..) Why not start out right with a good shooting barrel right off the get go.

O/M

[northmn]

Black powder loading is its own science. First a 38-55 was designated that way due to its Schutzen use where they filled the case and put a card over the powder and fit the bullet into the breech before loading the case. A BP load for a 38-55 with a bullet loaded is typically 45 grains. You need to use a good BP lube like SPG, Alox can make them go wild as it hardens the fouling. Many like an over powder card. Soft or hot primers, requires experiment. Swiss tends to like soft primers some like magnum primers in GOEX?? when someone says BP don't work in a BP rifle liek the Winchester I suspect they have not played enough with the components.

DP

[Nobade]

Thanks Nobade, awesome info. I have Wonder lube for my flintlock, would that be better than my allox/minwax mix? Can I just shoot duplex loads and then clean the bore when I'm done? I like the idea of hunting with a 113 yr old rifle with a soft lead bullet and black powder!

Yep, wonderlube will work. I like beeswax/crisco/olive oil or jojoba oil mix but lots of BP lubes are out there and they all have their place. When done shooting, yes clean the gun. Water wet patches, dry patches, and an oiled patch. Doesn't take much. Way easier than with smokeless. Also decap your cases and wash them out real well. I use a tumbler with SS pins, but a test tube brush works fine too.

Overmax is right, if the rifling is shot it may never work all that great. But this way you can see what it is capable of, and have a good time at the same time.

-Nobade

[6.5 mike]

A few pp'ed loads may help the bore, sometimes they will push out the build up in the grooves, have had this with old mil-sup's. Just wrap them up, then size to what you need using soft lead with bp. Going through the same thing with a model 1893 marlin in 32-40 made in 1899. And yes, these old timers are a pain, but feels so good when it all comes together ,lol.

[marvelshooter]

Okay I am ready to try some black powder in my .38-55. I cast up some pure lead boolits that I am going to size .377 and I have some 2F on the way. I have never touched the stuff before and I welcome all comments and suggestions. How safe is it to handle? How do I measure and dispense it? I assume I don't use a regular powder measure. I think I want to start with a case full but no compression yet. Do I fill a case and then weigh the powder and use the same amount for each case? Help!! Thanks - Dan

[TXGunNut]

In a nutshell a BPCR round needs compression and a wad. Most folks determine the volume of powder needed to achieve the desired compression, measure it into the case and compress the charge with the wad and compression die. Wads can be store-bought or punched out of a suitable material. Then the boolit is seated and crimped as necessary. There are dozens of variables involved in the above, come hang out in the BPCR area and do a bit of reading.
Come with an open mind, many things you learned about smokeless simply don't apply to Holy Black.
Yes, BP is safe when handled correctly. And yes, it's a lot more fun than smokeless. And no, it's not hard to clean up.

[ColColt]

Is 3Fg better in the smaller (.38 down) calibers? Seems I've read that somewhere.

[samwithacolt]

Just fired 12 rds of pure lead with a little tin, 4" at 100yds compared to 12" with WW's and the same load of 10 gr unique. Very pleased, need to cast some more boolits and tinker with the load.
I also got a factory crimp die which may have helped reduce velocity spread.

[ColColt]

I'm using 23 gr of H4198 and the Lee 250 gr bullet and get 2 1/2" groups at 100 in my Legendary Frontiersmen. I use ww's with a dash of tin and BAC lube.

[Chill Wills]

Headway! Way to go. It is satisfying to get these old rifles going again.

[samwithacolt]

My only source for pure lead is slugs from our local range's slug and buckshot area. How about .38 wadcutters? There are lots of those on our pistol range and they seem pretty soft. I need pure for casting my own shotgun slugs and now the .38-55, and there just are'nt enough to pick up!

[40-82]

I am shooting a pair of 1894 38-55's. The one made in 1901 has a very rough bore, and it's the rifle I started with. I used the RCBS 260 grain gas checked bullet made from plain wheel weights lubed with either LBT or NRA formula alox. I tried a number of loads with mediocre success, 3 to 4 inch groups at 25 yards. I worried that because of the rough condition of the bore that the rifle would never shoot well. I hit upon a load of 18 grains of IMR 4227 filled with White Lily cornmeal and my groups shrank to ragged holes. Without the cornmeal the accuracy was very poor. When I acquired the second 38-55 made in 1900 with an excellent bore, I also had fine accuracy with the same load. Whether this load would work in your rifle I have no idea. Cast boolit loads are notorious for delivering great accuracy in one rifle and very poor accuracy in the next for no discernible reason. I will guess that you will get better accuracy with a load that fills the case, but I wouldn't even count on that for sure. Sometimes you can just keep trying combinations until you hit on the right one. The frustrating thing is that you can never know that a rougher rifle will ever shoot well, but a surprising number of them do.

[EDG]

You might want to make a cast of your chamber. The 38-55 neck is often too small for a groove diameter bullet much less one .001 to .002 oversize. If the neck is too small get it reamed to clear the neck .002 or .003 with a groove dia bullet. After that you can monkey with bullets and alloys.

[ColColt]

I have a Legendary Frontiersmen that has a groove diameter of .379". The run of the mill Lee mold drops that bullet cast with ww's right at .380". When I size to .379" it usually bulges one side of the case. The cause is Winchester brass being .002-.003" out of round and fire forming didn't help but, it doesn't seem to affect anything so I live with it or switch to Starline whenever that will be available is anyone's guess.

[Baja_Traveler]

You'll notice a slight bulge with Starline brass also. I use the Dick Dastardly Big Lube boolit and size to .380 for my Legendary Frontiersmen. My silhouette load is 40 grains Swiss 1 1/2 with a fiber wad and large pistol primer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[ColColt]

What does that bullet look like and weight?

[samwithacolt]

I am depriming with the decapping pin and a mallet and seating by hand. I then factory crimp and run the whole thing into the sizing die with the pin removed. No bulges, and they feed perfectly.

[Jon K]

The bulge is because the sizing die is taking the brass down too far for a .380 boolit. Use Lyman 38-55 neck sizing die works great...with no bulge.

Jon

[marvelshooter]

I just came back from shooting my 1894 .38-55 with black powder for the first time. Results were not quite what I was hoping for. To start I filled the cases flush with 2F and then compressed it enough to seat the boolit over a felt wad. Recoil was stout with that curved steel butt plate and it being tee shirt weather. Accuracy was about the same as I was getting with Unique when I could get a case to chamber with a bullet large enough to shoot decent. Time to start experimenting. More powder, less powder, boolit seated longer or shorter. Different lube.

[Nobade]

Sounds like too much powder for a start. Go for 1/8 to 1/4 inch compression to start with. You are using a good BP lube, right? Lots of experimenting is sometimes required to find the magic combination but when you do it should work very well. Remember to clean those cases afterward.

-Nobade

[marvelshooter]

Sounds like too much powder for a start. Go for 1/8 to 1/4 inch compression to start with. You are using a good BP lube, right?

-Nobade
I am not sure if I am using a good lube. I have a tube of something that I bought for muzzle loading patches so I tried it. I will try a little less powder and look into different lubes. Thanks for reminding me about cleaning the cases.