Need a different 45 200 SWC mold

[Cloudpeak]

I need to come up with something other than the two Lee 200 SWC molds that I have. They don't feed 100% in my 1911s. I'm looking for something that is a good copy of the H&G 68 (that won't break the bank) in a four cavity. I've shot a few thousand of the Penns 200 SWC 45 and have never had a FTF and I'm betting this is a very accurate copy of the H&G. I've tried all sorts of OAL with the Lee 452-200-SWC out of the 6 cavity and still have occasional 3 point jams. I believe it is because the nose diameter is smaller than the H&G design.

In the picture, the Penns is on the left, the 452-200-SWC is on the right.

Cloudpeak
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN1441.jpg

[kellyj00]

cloudpeak: sorry to hear of your problem.
would you be interested in selling off your lee molds? PM me.

Thanks!

[crabo]

Have you done any polishing on your feed ramps? If not, it would be a good thing to have done.

[beagle]

You might try the Lyman 452460. I've always had good luck with them in the various M1911s I've owned over the years from GI clunkers to custom match guns. Sometimes they require a little more or less seating depth and a bit of adjustment on powder charge but I've found it a very reliable design and use it in in the Combat Target Model right now./beagle

[robertbank]

I'll 2nd the Lyman design. I have shot a zillion of them out of my 1911's with never a feeding issue. 5.3 gr Win 231 makes PF for IPSC/IDPA and is very accurate in all my guns.

Take Care

Bob

[Lloyd Smale]

If your gun wont feed the two lees its proably not going to feed the H&G or the lyman swc as there both very simular to the lee bullets. Id say you should look at why your gun wont feed them rather then looking for a new bullet. Try varying size and seating dept and make sure your running springs in your gun that are compatable with your load and make sure you at least polish your feed ramp. Ive yet to see a 45 acp 1911 that was set up right that wouldnt feed the lyman swc. Sometimes it took some pretty deap seating especially when i comes to springfields as they tend to cut there chambers short. ALL 1911s come from the factory with spings to heavy for even factory ball. they do it to keep there guns from getting battered as the springs wear and it helps hold down warantee work. Run the proper spring and change it often. Guys tell me they rarely change there springs. Im here to tell you a 15 lb spring is not a 15lb spring after a 1000 rounds. 9 times out of ten when someone is complaining to me that there 1911 isnt feeding well I do this. I check the extractor (rarely the problem) polish the feed ramp (sometimes can be the problem) change the springs (usually the problem) or find out there loading technique just isnt working for that particular gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

one more question. What kind of magazines are you using?

[Sundogg1911]

I have both moulds and all of my 1911's feed them except for an AMT Hardballer (They named it Hardballer for a reason....that's the only thing that works in mine, and also in a Buddy's AMT) I really like my H&G the best, but I also have a Magma 200 gr. RN mould that my feed better for you. the biggest issue i've had with feed problems in a 1911 is OAL. (in anything that's not RN) What brand 1911's do you have. I can tell you the Lee feeds in my Para-Ordnance, Enterprise. (Both Dbl. stacks with ramped barrels) My Springfields (A Loaded and a GI) a Kimber, and a Clark with no issues whatsoever. the AMT however chokes on just about everything. One of these days i'll make a boat anchor out of it, but it's really pretty polished stainless with rosewood checkered double diamonds. but I guess pretty doesn't hit the 10 ring!

[fourarmed]

Cloudpeak, if your gun works well with the commercial SWC but not with yours, it could be the hardness of the two. Commercial cast bullets I have used are extremely hard, and if your feed ramp is slightly rough, a softer bullet could be hanging up. Have you tried varying the OAL?

[Lloyd Smale]

local gunshop owner dropped off a little amt 45acp concealed carry gun about 2 weeks ago to let me fool with. I forgot what it was called but it was about as small of a 45 auto as ive seen. Kind of a neat gun and he only wanted a couple hundred bucks for it. thats what he foolishly gave for it on trade. It wouldnt run a dammed thing. I tried every load with every bullet i had and factory ball to boot. I tried lapping the slide ajusting the extractor tweaking the magazines. Didnt have a new recoil spring for it so i even experiemented stretching out the one it had but the best i got was with one of the magazines i could get it to run about two magazines for every malfunction. It was tough to diagnose as it did about every variation of a jam that is possible. Sure would have liked to get that thing running it would have made a great truck gun!
I have both moulds and all of my 1911's feed them except for an AMT Hardballer (They named it Hardballer for a reason....that's the only thing that works in mine, and also in a Buddy's AMT) I really like my H&G the best, but I also have a Magma 200 gr. RN mould that my feed better for you. the biggest issue i've had with feed problems in a 1911 is OAL. (in anything that's not RN) What brand 1911's do you have. I can tell you the Lee feeds in my Para-Ordnance, Enterprise. (Both Dbl. stacks with ramped barrels) My Springfields (A Loaded and a GI) a Kimber, and a Clark with no issues whatsoever. the AMT however chokes on just about everything. One of these days i'll make a boat anchor out of it, but it's really pretty polished stainless with rosewood checkered double diamonds. but I guess pretty doesn't hit the 10 ring!

[rockrat]

I'll throw in a shameless plug for a two cavity 452460 mould on the site benefit section of swapping and selling!!![smilie=1:

[Cloudpeak]

Thanks, everyone, for all the help.

Crabo: the ramp is well polished

Bob: My most accurate loads with W231 and either the Penns or Lee 200 SWC has been 5.0 grains. Soft shooting and accurate. The closest ISPC/IDPA shoot is 110 miles, one way, away from where I live:(

LLoyd: Two thousand Penns bullets have never failed to feed. I have 6 of the Springfield, 7 round mags with the dimpled followers.

fourarmed: the ramp is smooth and I've varied the OAL's all over the place with the Lee bullet. Water dropped. The nose doesn't deform when hitting the feed ramp. (it does slightly with air cooled). Your're right, the Penns bullets are harder.

rockrat: Man, I don't know if I could go from a 6 cavity to a 2 holer:-D

Sundogg1911: I have a S.A. 5" SS Loaded and a LW Champion
I shot 50 rounds of the Lee today with only one FTF. It was easily cleared by slightly pulling the slide back and releasing. No hard, 3 point jam. I did a polish job on the extractor (a very rough part), polished the breechface, smoothed where the ramp breaks over into the chamber and a few other things as suggested my memebers of the 1911 Pistol Org. and things seem to be working better. I'm still going to change molds, though.

Thanks, guys.

Cloudpeak

[BD]

IMHO, generally speaking, the smaller the nose diameter of a SWC the relatively longer OAL needed. It's all about how far forward the cartridge is when it first contacts the ramp. When the bullet nose hits the ramp the round is tilted abruptly upwards. How soon after this the case rim clears the feed lips determines whether the round jams or goes up and in. Shorter, wider nosed bullets based on the H&G 130 need to be seated shorter, (1.220 +/-). Longer SWCs based on the H&G #68 are seated a little longer, (1.250 +/-). Longer, skinny corruptions of the #68 like the Lee may want a little more length, (1.270 +/-). Pull the spring out and cycle some dummy rounds by hand. About the time the nose hits the ramp, and not before, the rim needs to be getting clear of the mag feed lips so it can get up under the extractor or you're in for trouble. You should feed a mag full and watch them all as they'll feed differently from the bottom of the mag than from the top.
BD

[Cloudpeak]

Longer, skinny corruptions of the #68 like the Lee may want a little more length, (1.270 +/-). Pull the spring out and cycle some dummy rounds by hand. About the time the nose hits the ramp, and not before, the rim needs to be getting clear of the mag feed lips so it can get up under the extractor or you're in for trouble. You should feed a mag full and watch them all as they'll feed differently from the bottom of the mag than from the top.
BD

Bingo, BD. I think you've got her nailed. That's kind of what I came up with. I did the whole dummy round thing and tried all sorts of OALs. By the time I got them long enough to feed, the OAL was too long. The shoulder of the bullet jammed into the rifling and the slide wouldn't go into battery. (Didn't someone on this forum say SA sometimes had short chambers Sorry, I look at so many gun groups through the day, I loose track.) There was also a problem with ejecting live rounds. They wouldn't fit through the ejection port.

I think if this bullet had a larger nose diameter, it would work fine in the Springfields.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[Lloyd Smale]

best dammed 45acp bullet ever designed!!
I'll throw in a shameless plug for a two cavity 452460 mould on the site benefit section of swapping and selling!!![smilie=1:

[BD]

In my experience the 452460, which is based on the H&G 130, is an excellant boolit when using mags with longer parallel feed lips like the Wilsons, Tripps, Kimber and factory SAs. When I've seen it cause trouble the culprit was well used mags with spreading lips or the older style military mags with the "V" shaped lips in combination with well used springs and loose extractors. Then it will occassionally pop up out of the mag before the nose gets under the barrel hood leading to the nose jamming into the back of the hood or the round sticking straight up out of the action.

I've always found it to be a very accurate boolit and I've shot a bunch of them cast out of a lyman 4 banger. The two smaller lube grooves work great, leading to much less gunk building up in the action. I discovered the problems I mentioned by lending ammo to folks at matches who'd shown up with stuff that wouldn't go bang.

The original #68 design is pretty good as well, and will drop out of a machine mold more easily which may explain why it's so available commercially. The original 200 gr. #68 design was set up so that the boolit hit the feed ramp at the same point in the cycle as military ball. Of course it's been copied and modified extensively by just about everyone in the business since then.
BD

[cuzinbruce]

Hi,
One I would suggest avoiding is the Lyman 452389, listed as 189 grains, with a stubby rounded nose. I bought the mold and tried it in my S&W 4506. Loaded singly, they were plenty accurate. When I tried them in a clip, the first would load when the slide was released. The second or third would eject when the gun cycled, tossing a live round out and leaving an empty chamber. maybe some guns can handle it but mine wouldn't.
Bruce

[Cloudpeak]

In my experience the 452460, which is based on the H&G 130, is an excellant boolit when using mags with longer parallel feed lips like the Wilsons, Tripps, Kimber and factory SAs. When I've seen it cause trouble the culprit was well used mags with spreading lips or the older style military mags with the "V" shaped lips in combination with well used springs and loose extractors. Then it will occassionally pop up out of the mag before the nose gets under the barrel hood leading to the nose jamming into the back of the hood or the round sticking straight up out of the action.

I've always found it to be a very accurate boolit and I've shot a bunch of them cast out of a lyman 4 banger. The two smaller lube grooves work great, leading to much less gunk building up in the action. I discovered the problems I mentioned by lending ammo to folks at matches who'd shown up with stuff that wouldn't go bang.

The original #68 design is pretty good as well, and will drop out of a machine mold more easily which may explain why it's so available commercially. The original 200 gr. #68 design was set up so that the boolit hit the feed ramp at the same point in the cycle as military ball. Of course it's been copied and modified extensively by just about everyone in the business since then.
BD
I'm assuming the 452630 is the copy of the 68. This looks exactly like the Penns bullet. After what you said about the 452460 possibly having difficulty with some mags, I'd lean toward the 630. I know the Penns functions 100% and am assuming it's a very close copy of the H&G desgin. Possibly the 630 would drop out of the mold a bit easier as well? Also, I kind of like the bevel base.

Where's the best place, online, to order the Lyman 4 cavity?

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[MtGun44]

One other issue that may be related to your failure to close is
the use of adequate taper crimp. If I had to point to one most
common reloading problem with the 1911 pattern .45 ACPs that
I have seen in the last 28 yrs of IPSC competition (every Friday
night, at least 40 per year) it is inadequate taper crimp. This is
not well defined in most reloading manuals and there is little
guidance on how to use a TC die.

If you set the taper crimp to push the case mouth into the lead about
1/2 the thickness of the brass (use a magnifier) you will be just
about perfect.

Another thing on selection a SWC. Hold up a FACTORY made
US military hardball round and your prospective SWC in a loaded
condition. Look at them from the side and see where the front
corner of the SWC is located - it should be ON the outline of the
the ball bullet contour. You can go narrower with the profile, but
to stay on the ball contour you will need to be longer, if you want
a wider meplat, you need to be shorter to stay on the countour.

I think this is the key to selecting a SWC and then to loading it
to the correct LOA to put the meplat corner on the curve defined
by a military ball bullet. This is what will feed properly.

The final failure to close is either taper crimp or too much full diam
shoulder fwd of the case. I had the second happen to me
recently with a new Dan Wesson Pointman 7 - that barrel has
near zero throat, needed to shorten my std length by about
.005" to get them to fully chamber reliably.

Hope that makes sense.

Bill

[Cloudpeak]

[QUOTE]One other issue that may be related to your failure to close is
the use of adequate taper crimp. If I had to point to one most
common reloading problem with the 1911 pattern .45 ACPs that
I have seen in the last 28 yrs of IPSC competition (every Friday
night, at least 40 per year) it is inadequate taper crimp. This is
not well defined in most reloading manuals and there is little
guidance on how to use a TC die.

If you set the taper crimp to push the case mouth into the lead about
1/2 the thickness of the brass (use a magnifier) you will be just
about perfect.
Bill, I've been taper crimping .468". I haven't had any chambering problems with either the Lee or Penns.


Another thing on selection a SWC. Hold up a FACTORY made
US military hardball round and your prospective SWC in a loaded
condition. Look at them from the side and see where the front
corner of the SWC is located - it should be ON the outline of the
the ball bullet contour. You can go narrower with the profile, but
to stay on the ball contour you will need to be longer, if you want
a wider meplat, you need to be shorter to stay on the countour.
Bingo. I did this awhile back. The Penn bullet matches the ogive of the 230 grain round nose. The Lee bullet doesn't. Had the Lee bullet had a larger nose diameter, I think it would work.

I think this is the key to selecting a SWC and then to loading it
to the correct LOA to put the meplat corner on the curve defined
by a military ball bullet. This is what will feed properly.
I'm hoping the new mold I buy will accomplish this.

Thanks Bill, Cloudpeak

[MtGun44]

Ok, I misunderstood that you were having failures to close.

Good luck with the new mold.

Bill

[BD]

I wouldn't be afraid of the 452460 at all. If your pistol has issues feeding it, it's time to address those issues. This is a wider, blunter nose SWC which hits the feed ramp about like a Gold Dot, Hydroshock or Ranger T. If it were mine I'd want it to be able to feed that kind of stuff.
BD

[gray wolf]

Well I will chime in here. I have a SA 1911-A1 loaded.
I shoot ball ammo, Gold dots,The shorter S W C and I cast a H&G 68. I have no feed issues with any of them. I have the two mags that came with the pistol --7 rounders with the dimple
and two crap 8 round Taurus which are built very differently than the S A mags.
All 4 work fine, they put the brass in different places but they function.
I have seated my #68 bullets 1.240, 1.245, 1.250 and 1.255 while this will change my chrono
results it does not make a difference in the feeding. They all feed. I use a F C D from Lee and I don't use the F C D. Sometimes I just use the seat and crimp die. They all feed. I do not believe in a heavy crimp for the 45 acp. Look at factory ammo, can you find the crimp?
Mr. Browning and his engineers made a very nice pistol with the intention for it to go bang all the time. It was made to run with a 16 pound recoil spring and a 23 pound main spring.
It was set up for ball ammo. Then we came along and asked it to jump through hoops for us
and when it doesn't we get mad at it.
Well now that I have said how great I am and how good my gun is, Let me share my Problems
It is not always happy, happy in my 45 world.
I went a long time with no problems then It started. After about 4000 rounds the last round in the mag would get crushed between the frame and the breach face. The pistol told me what the problem was. The last round was the clue, It had no support in the mag
( no bullet under it to hold it up ) the extractor was week. I removed it and put a little tension on it and the problem went away. Then about every 30 0r 40 rounds I would get what looked like a three point jam. But I could lightly push the slide into battery.
You can't do this with a true three point jam. The case will get a dent on the bottom side and bind the round up in that three point position. I polished the top of the chamber from the front of the hood to half way in the chamber. That got rid of most of the F T G I B.
I still had a couple of hick cups. I then went over my brass and got rid of the cases with badly ding up case rims, The ones I couldn't clean up. I now run almost problem free with reloads. Factory is no problem. I think if I can go 250 rounds with no problems and then have a hang up it's not the gun.
Lets remember that in order to feed OK a 45 acp must present the round to the feed ramp correctly, then it must hit the top of the chamber in front of the hood and then go into the chamber. A light polish to the ramp is OK but don't change any of the angles. The bottom of the barrel in the area that is throated should be about 1/32 of an inch from the feed ramp
when the pistol is functioning.
This whole 45 thing can get very complex and drawn out.
I agree with BD I would want it to work.
I would first make sure my gun is problem free with at least one kind of ammo. if it is not you will be chasing the dog forever. Then take the problem child and say O K whats wrong here.
It works with this why not with that? It's a starting point. We know the extractor works, we proved that out with the rounds that worked. It could be mags with a different bullet style,
it could be over all length, OR IT COULD BE the geometry of a number of things in the build up of the pistol in relation to the way it is feeding the rounds.
changing springs is a band aid for a problem that will come back. Unless the spring is tired.
If I had a bullet that wouldn't feed and I tried all the O A L things and my cases were loaded correctly ( no dents, no dings, with the proper crimp) I would not use that bullet or have a smith work on it to make it work for that bullet. But then again it may not work with others.
As usual I have run my mouth and I am not sure that I have helped.
I hope you find the problem and it works out for you.

[45 2.1]

I went a long time with no problems then It started. After about 4000 rounds the last round in the mag would get crushed between the frame and the breach face. The pistol told me what the problem was. The last round was the clue, It had no support in the mag
( no bullet under it to hold it up ) the extractor was week. I removed it and put a little tension on it and the problem went away. Then about every 30 0r 40 rounds I would get what looked like a three point jam. But I could lightly push the slide into battery.
You can't do this with a true three point jam. The case will get a dent on the bottom side and bind the round up in that three point position. I polished the top of the chamber from the front of the hood to half way in the chamber. That got rid of most of the F T G I B.
I still had a couple of hick cups. I then went over my brass and got rid of the cases with badly ding up case rims, The ones I couldn't clean up. I now run almost problem free with reloads. Factory is no problem. I think if I can go 250 rounds with no problems and then have a hang up it's not the gun.
Lets remember that in order to feed OK a 45 acp must present the round to the feed ramp correctly, then it must hit the top of the chamber in front of the hood and then go into the chamber. A light polish to the ramp is OK but don't change any of the angles. The bottom of the barrel in the area that is throated should be about 1/32 of an inch from the feed ramp
when the pistol is functioning.
This whole 45 thing can get very complex and drawn out.
I agree with BD I would want it to work.
I would first make sure my gun is problem free with at least one kind of ammo. if it is not you will be chasing the dog forever. Then take the problem child and say O K whats wrong here.
It works with this why not with that? It's a starting point. We know the extractor works, we proved that out with the rounds that worked. It could be mags with a different bullet style,
it could be over all length, OR IT COULD BE the geometry of a number of things in the build up of the pistol in relation to the way it is feeding the rounds.
changing springs is a band aid for a problem that will come back. Unless the spring is tired.
If I had a bullet that wouldn't feed and I tried all the O A L things and my cases were loaded correctly ( no dents, no dings, with the proper crimp) I would not use that bullet or have a smith work on it to make it work for that bullet. But then again it may not work with others.
As usual I have run my mouth and I am not sure that I have helped.
I hope you find the problem and it works out for you.

The next time you get a jam, look at the position of the case rim in relation to the extractor. If it is on the extractor arm, take the extractor out and polish that area and bevel lightly the underside edge the case rim comes in contact with. That should help your problem if that is what is happening.

[BD]

In my experience, an awful lot of last round feeding issues can be cured by replacing the mag spring. This is the round with the least spring tension pushing it up so it will be the first one to find any "hitch" in the process. When the mag spring is all done in the last round is the one which will tell the tale. I put new springs in any mags I'm counting on once a year.
BD

[EMC45]

Lloyd it was the AMT Backup. Nice and small, terrible trigger. I have run some SWCs through my Springfield 1911A1 and they ran fine, but when I ran them through my brother's XD they had to be single loaded to work. Were still accurate, but wouldn't run from the mag.

[Cloudpeak]

<Rest of good info snipped>
If I had a bullet that wouldn't feed and I tried all the O A L things and my cases were loaded correctly ( no dents, no dings, with the proper crimp) I would not use that bullet or have a smith work on it to make it work for that bullet. But then again it may not work with others.
As usual I have run my mouth and I am not sure that I have helped.
I hope you find the problem and it works out for you.

I appreciate the input. The only problems I have with FTRB are with the Lee SWC 200 grain bullet. Maybe 3 rounds out of 50. Two thousand rounds of Penns 200 SWC and many boxes of 230 gr. RN WWB have never failed to function in either of my 1911's.

I'm going to take the easy way out and buy a mold that is an accurate copy of the 68. I'm going to use "the easy button":-D

Cloudpeak

[MGySgt]

local gunshop owner dropped off a little amt 45acp concealed carry gun about 2 weeks ago to let me fool with. I forgot what it was called but it was about as small of a 45 auto as ive seen. Kind of a neat gun and he only wanted a couple hundred bucks for it. thats what he foolishly gave for it on trade. It wouldnt run a dammed thing. I tried every load with every bullet i had and factory ball to boot. I tried lapping the slide ajusting the extractor tweaking the magazines. Didnt have a new recoil spring for it so i even experiemented stretching out the one it had but the best i got was with one of the magazines i could get it to run about two magazines for every malfunction. It was tough to diagnose as it did about every variation of a jam that is possible. Sure would have liked to get that thing running it would have made a great truck gun!

Lloyd,

I have the same gun - AMT backup in 45 ACP. I had the same problem until I found that the inside of the mag lips were rough and holding up the rounds from coming out of the mag smoothly. I took a file at a 45 degree angle for a few strokes and no more feeding problem.

Drew

[Sundogg1911]

Lloyd. that was probably an AMT Backup in .45. I had one. great size. a little heavy, but it only fed ball as well. that seems typical with the AMT's probably what drove them under.

[Dave Berryhill]

Has anyone tried the RCBS 452-201-SWC? I haven't found much info on them but have heard from a few guys that they fed better than an H&G 68.

[Scrounger]

Have one, never tried it.

[Dale53]

This discussion is most interesting. The H&G #68 IS the gold standard for .45 wadcutters. My .45's will actually feed empty cases, so I don't have feeding problems in general. I have an H&G 4 cavity #130 mould and it works quite well with both my 1911's and my S&W 625.

Regarding Lee - if I were going to copy a bullet design, you can bet your sweet bippy that I would copy it EXACTLY. What are people thinking when they try to "improve" on perfection? The patents (if any) are long expired and you could copy exactly with no fear of problems legally. I see this stuff all the time - "ALMOST" COPIES. If you are gong to copy, then COPY!!

Rant over...

Dale53

[Dave Berryhill]

This discussion is most interesting. The H&G #68 IS the gold standard for .45 wadcutters....
Great bullet design but many of us have found that slightly different versions of the SWC feed a little more reliably.

[Ken O]

There is talk here on the H&G 130, I have one and it drops at .454. Is this the norm for this mold?

[JIMinPHX]

I had horrible feeding problems in a Government model 1911 when I tried to use Excel SWC’s. I switched to a Lyman 452630 mold & my feed problems vanished. Lyman calls the 452630 a flat nose bevel base, but it looks like a semi-wadcutter to me. The only anomaly is that the base of the cone is a little wider than on most other SWC’s that I have seen. Because of this & the resulting narrow shoulder, I had to push them to about 850 fps before I got clean holes in the paper. Usually, I get clean holes at around 725-750fps with most other SWC’s.

Most of the target grade 1911s eat wadcutters real well right out of the box, but a lot of the Government models only have their chambers clearanced for hardball. You can polish your feed ramp & open up the lower lip of your chamber to make any wadcutter feed, but if you go too far, you will loose case support under an area too far forward of the head on the brass & that can cause case ruptures. Feed improvement is a job that is best left to a competent gunsmith.

[Cloudpeak]

Great bullet design but many of us have found that slightly different versions of the SWC feed a little more reliably.

Dave, What are these versions of which you speak?

Cloudpeak

[Dave Berryhill]

The Lyman 452460 and the RCBS 452-201-SWC that were previously mentioned.

[Cloudpeak]

The Lyman 452460 and the RCBS 452-201-SWC that were previously mentioned.

Ooops. I thought you were talking about something new:-D

CP

[94Doug]

As somewhat of a "newbe"..... have we ever done a group buy on the 452460 design in a lee 6 cavity?

Doug

[Dale53]

Ken-O;
I have an H&G four cavity mould. However, I had several thousand bullets cast up, sized and lubed, and I cannot remember what the "as cast" size was. It''ll be a while before I have to cast again. I guess the short answer is to call me back in a few months (terrible answer, I know, but that is the best that I have at this time).

They sure shoot well in my 625-8 JM Special. I size to .452" in my Star. They also work well in my three 1911's including my itty bitty Ultra CDP II 3".

Dale53