460v s&w magnum with 405 fn

[DrCaveman]

Well call me an idiot if you want, i went ahead and leapfrogged 41 mag and 44 mag land in my revolver collection. The smith 460v was calling me from beneath the glass and ill be damned if it didnt fit my hand better than the 45 auto i was looking to get rid of. A trade plus a few dollars and i am the proud owner of a 5" 460 magnum.

Weight is up there, but the way it fits my hand, doesnt feel a lot different than my 6" gp100 full underlug in 357. I think the cylinder weight sits close enough to the hand that it balances nicely.

Sadly i havent shot it yet and wont have a chance til next weekend at best.

My question to anyone who knows or has a good guess:

-what is a decent load with the Lee 405 rnfp designed for 45-70? I am thinking trail boss or titegroup, but 2400 will probably get tried too. Figure on the TB & TG loads running about 850-1000 fps, the 2400 im not sure but 1200-1300 would be pretty solid.

-can the 230 .451" XTP (designed for 45 acp) withstand the 2000+ fps and 50k+ pressure it is likely to get hit with?

Ok, i bought it because i like 45 caliber, there werent any DA 45 colt revolvers available, no 454 casull revolvers, and i like the idea of COMFORTABLY shooting 300-400 gr loads at 1000-1200fps+. Most redhawks and model 29s seem to get people shaken up at those levels. Maybe im wrong.

Anyway, any tips about heavy lead boolits launched at reasonable velocities in the smith 460v revolver will be much appreciated.

Thanks, and good shootin to you

[blackpowder man]

I've been sizing down the NOE 340 grain hp and the lee 340 rnfp to .452 and shooting them from my xvr. I've been using sr4759 and they shoot pretty good. I thought about trying some 500 grain bookits, but I dislike how fast those big bookits empty a lead pot. I have really been enjoying playing with full wadcutter target loads at the range lately.75143

[JohnFM]

Boy, you guys are going with some heavy lead in that 460 Mag!
I've only used a couple different 300 grain bullets in mine, but have been thinking about maybe looking for a mold around 350 grains.

[Groo]

Groo here
The 460S&W has the same problem as the 454mag.
Unless you shoot cast or special jackets [ FA heavy jacket or XTP MAG etc]
You stand a fair chance of leaving the jacket in the barrel as the core goes down range, just not built for the pressure.
You are ok if loading Mouse Fart loads [ aka Trailboss].

[DrCaveman]

Groo here
The 460S&W has the same problem as the 454mag.
Unless you shoot cast or special jackets [ FA heavy jacket or XTP MAG etc]
You stand a fair chance of leaving the jacket in the barrel as the core goes down range, just not built for the pressure.
You are ok if loading Mouse Fart loads [ aka Trailboss].

So, this is the answer to the 230 xtp question. Fair enough, i figured the bullet was designed for the 800-900 fps and 17-20k pressure it might experience in an ACP. So i will probably limit that one to near that level, see how it does. Im betting that 1100-1200 fps will create an intense expansion with that bullet. Any greater may not be good. Thanks for the heads up

Unfortunately jacketed .452" magnum bullets are scarce here. Darn, that means i will have to shoot my cast!

Ill tell ya, that 405 rnfp laid out next to a piece of brass and the gun makes it look like the right combo. Im hoping to hear some suggestions but not afraid to trek out into trailboss and unique country to find a winner here.

Just waiting on my dies and brass. Any experience or even opinions welcome.

[gofastman]

Anyway, any tips about heavy lead boolits launched at reasonable velocities in the smith 460v revolver will be much appreciated.

I think your X-frame has gain twist rifling, so it may be a diffrent story than, say, a super redhawk, but from what i understand those big slugs really need to be driven hard to make them stabilize.


-can the 230 .451" XTP (designed for 45 acp) withstand the 2000+ fps and 50k+ pressure it is likely to get hit with?
absolutely not!
Like Groo said;
If you want Hornady jacketed bullets you'l have to go with the 200gr FTX or the 240 and 300gr XTP MAG offerings

[DrCaveman]

About the gain twist rifling: the 8 3/8" barrel is reported to have a gain twist starting around 1:100 at breech end gaining to 1:20 at muzzle. Do any of you know if the 5" model has the same spec? Guess I could email s&w but you guys respond so much quicker ;)

Gofastman

Well, what do you think constitutes 'driven really hard?' Like 1200 fps, or 1500 fps?

I think I may not mind pushing the 405 just a bit supersonic but based on my 45-70 rifle, launching that sucker at 1400 out of the revolver would be a handful. Oh well, all I can do is try it and let my hands and ears tell me the answer

[44man]

I don't think twist is the same when they shorten. Why a short barrel in a .460 anyway?
.45 Colt is a lot lighter and will do as well.

[JohnFM]

Why a short barrel in a .460 anyway?
.45 Colt is a lot lighter and will do as well.

Eh? How do you figure?

[gofastman]

the 460 needs a lot of barrel to really shine, 8" or more.

[JohnFM]

Yeah, it's a long barrel cartridge, course handloading helps.
Mine is called an 8 3/8", but actually there's 7 1/2 inches of barrel behind the compensator.

[DrCaveman]

Well, im not planning to max out the 460 loads so I hoped that the shorter barrel would not be too much of a performance-buster

Figured I would use slightly faster powders, maybe in the True Blue to 2400 range. Do you guys still think that the powder would not burn completely? People don't usually complain that a 5" barrel is too short for a 45 colt, and with my 405 gr flat nose, a lot of case volume is taken up so that it is a little closer to the 45 or 454 volume.

Ill have to do some math and water tests to see the actual comparison.

Still no one out there with any loads to recommend for this combo?

[44MAG#1]

I have used a 515 gr bullet in my 12 inch Encore 454 Casull. It is accurate and hard hitting. Will run 1250 with 24 gr H110.
Due to the log throat I can seat the bullets out.
Ialso have 2 bullets for the 454 one at 410 gr and one at 420. I have run those at 1350 from a 4.75 inch FA. actual chronoed.
Why one would think the 460 Smith would do worse is beyond me.
Admittedly that load was high PSI and probably 1250 would be more reasonable.
Any time someone post a question like this it generally dished on by most but I say have at it.
I did my own work up on the heavies and did not consult the masses for information.
On something like this you are only going to get the naysayers anyway.

[shorty500M]

have ran 420 slugs @1450fps from 8-3/8 S&W. no stablity issues. ran same slugs as slow as 750fps in shorter barrels with zero accuracy/stability issues. twist can ruin a gun but have rarely seen it to be the case with any of the mass-produced toys.

[gofastman]

FWIW a heavy slug will loose a smaller percentage of its velocity from a short barrel.
a 405gr slug may be an ideal combo for that gun and cartridge

[shorty500M]

FWIW a heavy slug will loose a smaller percentage of its velocity from a short barrel.
a 405gr slug may be an ideal combo for that gun and cartridge


very true a the "popular" 200g factory loads and even max loads with 335g can lose ALOT os speed in lower temperatures. have seen this 1st hand as well as similar results printed in the gun rags. this happens in the LONG barrel!!! short would be even worse i think. 400g and up for me

[Ramjet-SS]

Yeah, it's a long barrel cartridge, course handloading helps.
Mine is called an 8 3/8", but actually there's 7 1/2 inches of barrel behind the compensator.

Just keep working at it you will find good combination and it will allot of trying. That is heck of gun wear ear and eye protection they are very very loud.

[donald150]

I can't wait to see what you come up with for that 405 grain round!!

I have the 2-3/4" Barrel 460 and used to buy bullets from "Ranger Rick" until he quit making them. I still have some 300gr and 535gr loaded rounds but I am all out of projectiles.

I just ended up with a BUNCH of 405gr (415gr w/GC and lube) that were made for a 45/70.

I have a .452 sizing die coming and hope to turn these into bullets for my 460.
I also have the mold to make more of the 405gr.

[JohnFM]

Just keep working at it you will find good combination and it will allot of trying. That is heck of gun wear ear and eye protection they are very very loud.

? To who or about what was the comment directed? Of course it's loud, it's a 45 caliber in a big case burning a lot of powder.

[Markbo]

Am I correct in thinking that all of these heavier bullets will be relatively hard and GC'ed?

[donald150]

Am I correct in thinking that all of these heavier bullets will be relatively hard and GC'ed?
I don't know how hard they are (I don't have a tester yet) but my 300, 535 and 405's are all gas checked.

[DrCaveman]

Am I correct in thinking that all of these heavier bullets will be relatively hard and GC'ed?

Right now, the only heavy 45 molds i have are plain base, and i didnt plan far enough ahead to make them super hard (as in water-dropped and aged). My alloy gives about 15 bhn which in my experience is pretty good up to around 30k psi as long as fit is good.

I now have a lee 300 gr GC mold on order, and that may become my stallion load, we'll see. Right now im casting up a batch of the 405s and also some 255 swc.

Im getting geared up to load these tonite, and shoot this weekend. Ive settled on Trailboss, Unique, and 2400 for this first testing. That aught to give me a decent range of velocities and fortunately i have a bunch of each of those powders.

Range report coming at the end of the weekend

[DrCaveman]

After maybe 500 dry fires while watching the tube this last week, i finally got the time to get out and shoot this puppy

My initial impression: a pussycat on steroids

I warmed up with some 357 loads in my 6" gp100, full house 358429 loads using 2400 along with some 158 gr with h110 clocking around 1300 & 1400 respectively

The factory 45 colt rounds i bought for the 460 were hornady 225 ftx, and felt like light 38 specials. Chrono showed 885 fps for these from my 5" barrel

Here are my hand loads, all using the Lee 457-405 fn sized to .4525" after dip lubing with a soapy-lithi-bee conconction. Alloy is a ww-range scrap-50/50 solder-magnum shot mix. Recent hardness tests show it to be about 14-16 bhn

4 shots with each load was all i allotted for chrono testng

Load 1
Hodgdon Trail Boss 11.6 gr
Lo: 754
Hi: 766
Ave: 760
SD: 5.8

Load 2
Allian Unique 10.6 gr
Lo: 842
Hi: 855
Ave: 847
SD: 5.9

Load 3
Alliant 2400 21.0 gr
Lo: 981
Hi: 1093
Ave: 1033
SD: 49

The SD figures are interesting, right off the bat. Trail Boss load density was very near 100% so i guess that could explain the tight spread. Load density for Unique and 2400 loads were similar to each other, i'd say about 60-70% of available space. I thought that Unique is supposed to be position insensitive, and i guess the tight spread there would agree. Not sure whats up with the wide spread in the 2400 load. I can say that i remembered to tip the barrel upward before the first shot, then forgot to afterward.

Subjective descriptions
Load 1 was very mellow shooting. Similar to a 200 gr 357 mag boolit launched around 1000 fps. Just a bit of a push, not too loud, no visible flame. No unburned powder in barrel. Accuracy came together after the first couple of 'tracer' shots. Good potential here i think, and i could shoot it all day long and confidently hand the gun to my wife without worry

Load 2 was a little more stout. Still, a quick push with a significant crack. No ear ringing through the muffs, though. POI was of course a little different than the trail boss load, and i never really nailed the accuracy with this one.

Load 3 was studly. Hand cannon describes it pretty well. A little bit of ringing in ears before i adjusted the muffs to seal better. Pretty heavy push, more so than any of my other handguns, but id bet that i could do 50 in a session and not regret it. It was still easier shooting than my buddys 44 (6" barrel with comp) using factory 240 gr loads.

Loads 2 and 3 handily blasted straight through about 8" of a stump nearby, and the boolit ripped a 1" hole in the cardboard set up behind it, before burying itself into a fellen tree behind it. Didnt see any evidence of the boolits coming out the back of the tree (20-25" diameter) but there was a burm there so im not sure

I think i will ditch the Unique loads, and stick with the Trail Boss as-is to figure out where its shooting. Mellow cowboy load.

The 2400 load shows great promise, i just need to figure out the major velocity spread. I think i can bump it quite a few grains, but no manuals or online guides that i have show data with that heavy of a boolit using 2400. Im thinking of inching my way toward 24 gr, that might get me up around my goal of 1100-1200.

The more i think about it though, staying subsonic is probably a good idea, and i can say with certainty that this 405 boolit going 1000 fps would do a lot of damage to almost anything in its path. Hell, its nearly the 45-70 buffalo killer load

Anyone out there with Quickload care to check into the pressures im liable to see using 24 gr of 2400? The oal is about 2.25" and the boolit is 1.025"

Thanks for reading. Hopefully someone finds this useful.

Warning: I MADE UP THESE LOADS ALMOST OUT OF THIN AIR, SO USE CAUTION AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK IF YOU PLAN TO REPLICATE ANYTHING I HAVE DONE HERE.

I was reluctant to share, but the amount of information out there about this cartidge/boolit combo is very lacking. Just trying to help others get some starting points, and sometimes it is nice for someone else to be the guinea pig ;)

[wildcatter]

I found the 460 was way to inefficient in revolvers with short barrels (under 8") they run barrel gaps to large to get the huge amounts of hard to ignite magnum powders to burn right, especially with the bullets available for 60,000 c.u.p. in 452" dia. So once I got rid of the barrel gap and half the size and still ran a 12" barrel before the Muzzle brake. I found a way to make the best of the 200 grain factory load and efficiently burn that 52 grain charge of H-110. This thing will run about 1" or a little less at 100 yards and drop about 2 1/2" at 200 yards, and gives 3389 FT. LBS of K.E.. Thisw is the only way I have found to make the 460 S&W cartridge EFFICIENT!
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/fire%20arms/XD7P0047.jpg

The problem with any lead boolit in the 460 is what John Linebaugh found with his 475, best performance comes at around 1400 fps, and if you get the alloy to hard it wont stay together at these velocities on big or dangerous game. I have ran my 340 grain custom WFNGC, at 1950 with just 33 grains of H-110 but even though the accuracy is around 1 1/2" it is useless because it is more than necessary for whitetail and not reliable on big game. This was the boolit but the loaded round in the picture is the 454, which it was designed for, at 1400 to 1500 FPS. and only 25 grains of H-110. The 454 is a much more efficient caliber for a revolver, and can be had in a very manageable size. I gave up on the revolver,,,,,not the cartridge. It is just not made for boolits! JMO
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/fire%20arms/XD7P4299.jpg

[44MAG#1]

A 200 grain bullet at 3602 fps to get 5762 fpe? I would say that is fantastic.
Yeah gaining over 1300 fps in 3.625 inches more barrel without a flash gap is really good.

[wildcatter]

Pardon the math,,,,its a bad *** but not that bad, I meant 3389 FPE, it doesn't pay to run equations at midnight?????? point is, you won't come close with a revolver,,,, and 8" will be very anemic, but will blind you at night from all the unburned powder left exiting the barrel gap and muzzle. My point was the 454 casual, with the same bullets 200 grn FTX, loaded with 38grn. of H-110 in a 7 1/2" FA will net you 2096 FPS, the 52.5 grn. of H-110 used in the Hornady factory loads with the same bullet, will only run 2114 out of my buddy's 10 1/2" factory VRX. the barrel gaps doesn't allow the huge volume of powder to build the required pressure to get a good burn, and 200 grain is all that is available in .452" to take the over 60,000 CUP the 460 will produce, If you could get a 300 or 340 grain jacketed bullet that would take the 60,000 CUP, you would have a great gun for a revolver,,,,,till then the 454 is a much better cartridge in a revolver, unless you want to load it down, then heavy cast work great, but they will do the same thing in the 454 without loading it down and with less powder! Just the way it is. I would love to see a 340 grain FTX made for this great cartridge, I would then be looking into a revolver!

[DrCaveman]

Fair enough. I am appalled at the huge powder consumption that the load manuals call for in this cartridge with light bullets

My figuring was that a slightly faster powder, coupled with a very heavy boolit and a heavy crimp, would allow for complete burn

I'm not pretending that I'm hitting 60k psi either. Yeah I guess I am downloading the cartridge but a 400 gr slug at 1200 from this gun will be plenty of performance for me.

As stated earlier, I couldn't find any 454 casull revolvers so this ended up being a better (and somehow more affordable) choice for me.

Maybe some filler is in order

I noticed the print on the spent-factory-case envelope that s&w is calling the barrel a '6 RH' which seems really fast to me. Maybe they meant 16, that seems more normal for a revolver like this, right?

If it is indeed 1:6, that would bode well for stability of long, heavy boolits, yes?

[wildcatter]

1:16 is plenty fast, and that might be what it is on the muzzle end, but the last I new, the 460's in the Smith gun's all had a gain twist, this starts out slow like maybe a 1:24 and speeds up twards the muzzle like 1:14??? I don't know where the twist rate starts and end, just giving an example. But with a 400 grn. at 1200 fps it will take anything on this continent. I played with some 1680 powder and it might have been ok for accuracy in the velocity range your looking for, but wow was that stuff dirty!! the 2400 I didn't have much luck with but it seems like it want's pressure to shoot good. I never tried accurate 5744, and always thought it might be just the ticket for 1200 to 1400 fps with good accuracy or N120??? Good luck and be sure to post up whatever you end up with. But about 4 years ago I was informed that the light bullets and high pressure was what this Revolver was designed for, and so far it seems to be the way it goes with it. Good Luck!!

[44MAG#1]

I guess I'll just stick with a BFR in 45/70 for brute power. I
Have long range barrels for my Encore so don't need a 460 S&W.

[Whiterabbit]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65955&d=1364705832

I'm VERY INTERESTED in your work with the 405. I want to develop a load for a buddy using a 425RD bullet. Ideally high power. The gain twist and 20" speed makes it a totally different animal than my BFR. Totally different.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60327&d=1359954594

I mostly shoot PB heavies, but my barrel twist is 16. I want to know if the 405 (and figure on 425) will stabilize out to 100 yards in the gain twist X-frame. It's the ideal bullet.

-------

biggest question, are your bullets spitting lead at you? last time I got a chance to shoot an X-frame a bunch with my loads, I ended up with lead all over my face. Enough that my wife noticed when I got home. What's up with that, and how to I keep lead out of the brake?

[Whiterabbit]

rereading some posts, there is mis-clarity on the X-frame twist. It is 100" at the cone and 20" at the muzzle.

[DrCaveman]

Whiterabbit

Nice looking boolit selection there. I trust the 540 BPLR is the big wadcutter on the right?

Is the 425RD pictured?

Regarding barrel twist, i understand that the XVR with 8 3/8" barrel starts at 1:100, finshes at 1:20 at muzzle like you said. I havent gotten any definite answers about the 460V. The only thing i know is that inside the gun's factory box, it says "Rifling Char: 6 RH"

I guess that probably just refers to groove numbers and direction

No lead was spit at me that i noticed. I did make sure to change out the compensator that i shot factory jacketed bullets through. The jacketed bullet comp has holes on top, just outside of the front site, while the lead boolit comp has no holes directly on top, just the ones at about 10 and 2 o clock. Maybe that was why the lead sprayed. I am thinking of tryng to get a comp with no holes as i shoot lead faster.

I have some nice rounds with 2400 and the 405 boolit loaded up and ready...along with some stout h110 loads with my new 300 gr GC boolits. Cant wait to try them out.

[Whiterabbit]

the 425RD is the GC bullet third from the left. The one just to the right of that is the 540 Hoch nose pour (probably my favorite bullet). It just gets heavier from there.

I'm interested in H110 in the 405, it's not too fast of a powder. 540 is about as heavy as I dare go with H110, heavier and I go to 4198. I know the 300GC is gonna work great with H110 or 40 grains of No. 9.

[DrCaveman]

Dang, my sense of scale there was way off! So, that plastic tipped jacketed bullet must be around 400 gr too, right? Who makes that one?

Is the big one on the right 700 grains? Which mold? How fast can a 460 safely shoot that beast? I think i wouldnt mind shooting a few of those

[donald150]

Are you casting the 4 on the right? If so, can you give me more info on the molds you used?

My 535gr boolits (pictured below on the right) almost fill the cylinder, I can't imagine a heavier round.
Those are 45/70 right?
76542
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65955&d=1364705832

I'm VERY INTERESTED in your work with the 405. I want to develop a load for a buddy using a 425RD bullet. Ideally high power. The gain twist and 20" speed makes it a totally different animal than my BFR. Totally different.

[Whiterabbit]

Actually, I don't shoot jacketed anymore. At all. When I don't shoot cast, it's to shoot long range (haven't gotten into long range with cast... YET! :)) or to hunt with expanding ammo (rather than round ball or with meplat) so ALL (all) my non-cast shooting is with copper solids. (tried brass solids [rifle only] but the results werent as good). Anyways, that's a 290 grain boat tail barnes TMZ .451 muzzleloader bullet. I shoot it at 2000 fps out of the BFR and after recovering ONE bullet (the rest are too deep in the mountain to recover) I can only conclude I would never, ever want to get shot with it. The 6 petals are razor sharp and huge. scary. Anyways, I wouldnt load copper at all in the BFR if it werent for the condors in CA.

The next up are 690 grain BPCR's from an Old West mold, and big fattie is a 740 grain bullet from an NEI mold. Because I wanted the 460 to have the record for the heaviest bullet in a S&W cartridge, not the 500. I don;t know how fast it goes at max, because I chronoed the accurate load, not the fastest. most accurate was 20 grains of imr4198, I tried 21, 22, I think 23 or maybe as much as 24. But be warned, my gun with the 3" cylinder GREATLY reduces pressure (and increases velocity!) compared to the X-frame. My data will always be of lower pressure and of faster speed (about 150-200 fps faster for the same powder charge, closer to 100-150 if it's a 12" X-frame barrel), and max loads in the BFR (which I don't shoot) will cause issues like flattened or cratered primers in the X-frame. So I don't know if 23 or 24 grains was max in the BFR but I know it's too much in the X-frame. Anyways, 20 grains is 940 fps. I don't know what speed the 23's or 24's were going. They werent as accurate as 20 so I stopped.

All round holes.

IMO, I suspect that 400-425 is the largest practical bullet length for the X-frame. I suspect that MAX velocities will be needed to stabilize a 400-500 grain bullet in a 20" barrel. THE INTERNET tells me (we know how reliable a source that is!) that at a 20" twist and 1350 fps speed, the longest bullet that will stabilize is 1.32" long. That's bigger than 425 grains, but X-frames are also limited to 2.3" OAL unlike my BFR. I ALWAYS load to 100% case fill, so that pic above, what you see is the bullet base sitting on powder, no compression, no airspace. Everything above 425 grains is over 2.3" long.

Anyways, that's just what the equations say, not what reality says. For 500 grains in the X-frame I wouldnt shoot a BPCR, I'd shoot the fattest meplat bullet possible to get the shortest bullet length and therefore most case capacity possible and fill it with H110 (assuming that "makes sense" in the loading data). But I really think it's not needed because frankly, the 425 ranch dog is a freight train. I only shoot the 500+'s because the recoil is lower and I can shoot softer plain based lead.

[Whiterabbit]

by the way, one of our own will probably sell you the NEI mold that makes the 740. After experimentation I have come to the conclusion that if I am gonna shoot 740's, I want a PB and if its gonna be a PB its gonna be a custom. And if its gonna be a custom mold, I may as well make it fit the 3" cylinder, make the bullet length the max for stabilizing in a 16" twist barrel, and follow BPCR guidelines. Ended up with a design at about 770 grains. Just need to find a moldmaker and get the money. But it's all a waste. That RCBS mold I posted up will likely make for an EXCELLENT bullet for the BFR.

[Whiterabbit]

Are you casting the 4 on the right? If so, can you give me more info on the molds you used?

My 535gr boolits (pictured below on the right) almost fill the cylinder, I can't imagine a heavier round.
Those are 45/70 right?


Hi Donald,

gave the info above before I saw your post. yes, all .457-.460 molds, all sized to .453/.4525. in soft metal I size in one go, in WDWW I size to .454 then to .452.

I'm REALLY interested in your experience with the TC bullet in the middle. How heavy is it? what bullet is it? And most importantly, have you shot it to 100 yards? is it accurate? Also, you crimp the HECK out of your bullets! Holy smokes!

[donald150]

Hi Donald,

gave the info above before I saw your post. yes, all .457-.460 molds, all sized to .453/.4525. in soft metal I size in one go, in WDWW I size to .454 then to .452.

I'm REALLY interested in your experience with the TC bullet in the middle. How heavy is it? what bullet is it? And most importantly, have you shot it to 100 yards? is it accurate? Also, you crimp the HECK out of your bullets! Holy smokes!
The one in the middle is a 300gr boolit made by "ranger Rick". I would LOVE to find a mold to make that one. The 535gr on the right is also from Rick and I crimp them as hard as I can with my lee dies but still can NOT load five at a time. The 5th round tries to leave the case. :-)
As for 100 yards..........I'm shooting a X-Frame with a 2-3/4" barrel.......100' is a challenge.

Ranger Rick no longer makes bullets that is why I am interested in the OP's 405gr data. I already have a bunch of 405s that were made .457 and I am going to resize them to .452.


Btw: I am new to casting boolits. I have been reloading for 10-12 years but have not casted even 1 boolit yet. I have started with buckshot and slugs.

[Whiterabbit]

bummer, must be a custom. most TC's I see do not have that steepness of slope.

And frankly, I don't care how strong you are loading them, methinks your expander plug is too big. I've never had a bullet jump crimp unless it was lead that was "too soft" cast in a bullet that was "too light" that was shot "too fast" with no gas check.I think you have insufficient case tension cause wow that's alotta crimp! You can tell in my pic I don't crimp at all.

[Whiterabbit]

I thought this guy ended up with RR's molds

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71

but I don't see that TC bullet there. mold must have ended up somewhere else.

[donald150]

bummer, must be a custom. most TC's I see do not have that steepness of slope.

And frankly, I don't care how strong you are loading them, methinks your expander plug is too big. I've never had a bullet jump crimp unless it was lead that was "too soft" cast in a bullet that was "too light" that was shot "too fast" with no gas check.I think you have insufficient case tension cause wow that's alotta crimp! You can tell in my pic I don't crimp at all.

I never thought of the expander being too large. All of the 535's I have are already loaded anyway. My 300's don't jump out.
As for the slope on the 300's, they leave a .60cal hole in 1/4" steel. The 535's just put a big dent in it.
The 300's only have slightly more kick than the 535's.

[donald150]

I thought this guy ended up with RR's molds

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71

but I don't see that TC bullet there. mold must have ended up somewhere else.
I thought he mostly just took the 500 magnum molds.
I know i read that other molds went to other people.

[Whiterabbit]

I noticed the same with lead, penetration on STEEL is based only on speed. the 740's splatter, no dent, looks like a big 22lr pock mark. my 300 LEEs cast soft and shot at 2000 fps from an inline muzzleloader will leave quite a dent.

It would be interesting to see the difference on flesh.

[DrCaveman]

Donald

Check out this mold from accurate

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-275B-D.png

It may not have quite as steep a pitch on the nose, but with GC, lube and a modified alloy ill bet it ends up around 300 gr. I still generally prefer a fn design but the TC boolits get a lot of praise

Great discussion guys, thanks. Keep it coming!

[donald150]

Thanks, I like the look of that Accurate mold. I just might have to get one.

Here are pics of the Ranger rick bullets that I have. These are pics from his old web site. The last one is his load data.

BTW: Look at how tight he crimps his :razz:


I also have another 460 round that i really want to work on but im concerned about my safety . I posted it in another thread as to not fully hijack this one.

Crazy 460 round HERE (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207099-Crazy-load-for-the-460S-amp-W-Will-this-work)


76563


76564


76566

[DrCaveman]

Finally got a chance to shoot these, Dad was heading through town and he had never shot a 460, so it was great for both of us.

I bought some factory hornady 200 gr FTX bullets to compare to my handloads. And just to see what the engineers intended for this round.

Apparently they intended for a $#|+load of unburned powder to come out the muzzle! Ha ha what a waste! What a glorious, fun 20 rounds of pure waste! Thank heavens that i am a reloader and will put that brass to good use in the future.

My hands felt a serious amount of heat from those factory loads. Cylinder gap gas escape, im guessing. No wonder that person destroyed their thumb. And accuracy was piss-poor with those loads. At least, neither of us were able to strike a balance between the roar of the boolit launch and recoil management. Chrono showed a whopping 2175 fps for that bullet out of 5" barrel.

Bad news OVER!

My 405 gr loads shot much nicer than the factory fodder. My 300 gr GC loads were hot, but nothing like the factory loads.

Here's some data

Load: 21.5 gr alliant 2400
Velocities: 932, 968, 1030, 1035, 1105
Note: medium kick...too much velocity variation to trust for precision

Load: 23.0 alliant 2400
Velocities: 1118, 1120, 1154
Note: not much more kick than previous load, boolits on target, velocity spread good so far

Load: 25.0 alliant 2400
Velocities: 1202, 1215, 1242
Note: decent kick, not too bad, accuracy better than previous two loads. This was my 'target' velocity, and it looks like a winner

Also shot my new 300 gr GC boolit, by Lee.

Load: 39 gr h110
Velocities: 1613, 1617. Lots of errors on the chrony with this load, maybe too much muzzle blast. Significantly louder and more punchy than the 405 loads, but still managable. Accuracy was so-so, due mostly to operator error. But it beat the hell out of the pine round holding up my target...split the sucker down the middle.


Im not posting any target pics as it is not useful. The take home lesson here is that:

-405 gr boolit with 25 gr of 2400 in the 460 magnum is quite OK. Could probably go higher...but probably will not
-300 gr boolit launched 400 fps faster may possess ~500 ft lb energy more than the 405, but is tougher to manage
-factory 200 gr loads do not hold a candle to either one of these as far as usability, in terms of being able to shoot enough to become proficient and prudent wear & tear on the gun. Also they made my head hurt after shooting a full cylinder worth. No ear ringing but definitely a throb in my brain. Didnt last long, but hey, why subject myself to that when i can kick just as much *** using something less painful?

I am happy with the momentum and TKO calcs for my better loads. I think i may scrap h110 in favor of 2400 for all loads from here on out. So sweet shooting. They feel like the hammer of Thor vs the laser of...i dunno, aqua man?

Now, just need to get my pound and a half of 2400 backed up by a few more pounds...but that aint been seen since december around here.

[Whiterabbit]

I seriously doubt the velocities in that pic above. My BFR will mic faster than a 12" S&W and my BFR does 1300-1400 fps with a 550 grain bullet with 26 gr of H110. This guy is saying 1900 fps with 15% less powder? No way.

"-factory 200 gr loads do not hold a candle to either one of these as far as usability, in terms of being able to shoot enough to become proficient and prudent wear & tear on the gun. Also they made my head hurt after shooting a full cylinder worth. No ear ringing but definitely a throb in my brain. Didnt last long, but hey, why subject myself to that when i can kick just as much *** using something less painful?"

I am SO with you on this one. Your 400 grain loads are just far more civilized. That's truly IMO the only word to describe the difference in shooting each load. Wouldn't you agree?

[DrCaveman]

Yeah, i felt like the 405 loads were a proper, thumping, managable load to shoot.

The factory 200 gr seemed like it was trying to be something it's not, like a magnum rifle round or something. Or maybe it is kind of a gimmick, a claim to fame for shooting the fastest handgun cartridge.

Or maybe i am trying to make this gun into something it is not. But, So far, i think i am on the right track and this gun is a shooter with 405 gr lead and 2400

[Whiterabbit]

Totally agree it is a gimmick. There's just too much powder in there for the short barrel. I have to wonder what it would do in a barrel like a handi buffalo carbine with the LONG barrel, but in a pistol there's just no reason for it. My BFR has double the barrel of your S&W and 52 grains of H110, well....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62256&d=1361684094

[Markbo]

Dr.Caveman, I sure wish you would specify which bullets you are using in your detailed load data. Without the bullet, it is hard to be certain which one(s) you are talking about. "Here's some load data" are all 405gr and "Also shot my new 300 gr GC boolit" is the 39 gr h110??

Also do you happen to have a pic of that 405gr Lee? Is it FP or HP?

[gofastman]

Dr.Caveman, I sure wish you would specify which bullets you are using in your details load data. Without the bullet, it is hard to be certain which one(s) you are talking about. "Here's some load data" are all 405gr and "Also shot my new 300 gr GC boolit" is the 39 gr h110??

you should re-read the thread.
both bullets are Lee designs

[DrCaveman]

Dr.Caveman, I sure wish you would specify which bullets you are using in your detailed load data. Without the bullet, it is hard to be certain which one(s) you are talking about. "Here's some load data" are all 405gr and "Also shot my new 300 gr GC boolit" is the 39 gr h110??

Also do you happen to have a pic of that 405gr Lee? Is it FP or HP?

405 gr Lee boolit is 457-405-f (90374). It drops from mould about .458-.459"

All loads with 2400 used the above mentioned boolit.

300 gr Lee boolit is C452-300-rf (90359). It dropped about .4217-.4527" (yeah sucks, undersized...thats kinda why i think the 405 gr will be the winner).

The h110 load used that 300 gr boolit, with gas check.

Both boolits were dip-lubed in lithi-bee-ivory (dont ask) and then push-sized to .4525"

Im thinking of a new load with the 300 gr, something north of 25 grains of 2400. Gonna have to crunch a few numbers to find a good start point

[Markbo]

you should re-read the thread.
both bullets are Lee designs

You should re-read my post. That's not what I asked.

DrCaveman have you considered the 405gr with a gas check or do you think it not necessary at that velocity range? I'm wondering too if that 300gr wouldn't be more accurate if it were say .454"?
And lastly have you tried the 405gr at .454" instead of .452"?

[DrCaveman]

Markbo

I currently do not own any 405 gr molds with gas check, so its not a consideration at this time. Further, i see nothing about my 405gr-1200fps loads which would warrant the use of GC based on boolit base deformation (i recovered a couple) nor leading in the barrel. I think the accuracy will just have to be dialed in. Time will tell

As for .454", i dont have a sizer at that diameter. When checking my sized .4525" boolits in the cylinder for 'a snug push through the throat, using only finger pressure', not a single boolit would go through without a solid rod & hammer whack.

So i dont think that .454" would fare any better than what i am doing. Hey, it works out well, same size as my 1911!

[Markbo]

Thanks for the info. Keep us posted on the 300gr though. I just have to think (maybe I just want to believe) that you will find an accurate load. I got some checking to do on mine I guess. :)

[DrCaveman]

Got out and tried some more heavies today. I am really liking this gun.

I blasted 15 of my stout 25 gr load of 2400 behind the 405 fn. This load is looking like the keeper, i got the full cylinder on paper each time. When i really locked in on the target and controlled my breathing, it shot like a laser...right where i pointed it.

I must admit at this point that this gun is taking a bit of work to shoot well. It is my first large bore handgun and im not gonna lie: i have a bit of a flinch. Even though i know that round 6 is an empty (5 round cylinder) i still push down to the right after the click. As with all things i assume it takes training/practice, and the correct kind. Im trying to do my homework to help make sure this gun doesnt ruin me for shooting other handguns.

Mixing in the 45 auto and some 38 spl while doing shooting tests seems a good way to keep oneself flexible. My goal is to not anticipate the shot at all...not a very lofty goal for a seasoned shooter but i am still in training.

I tried a load with the 300 GC boolit (lee) in front of 28 gr 2400. It clocked at just under 1500 fps and shot like a freakin laser also...when i kept hold on target. This load was the most snappy of the day, and very loud.

I also bumped up the 405 fn load to 26.5 gr of 2400. This clocked at 1300 fps, seems to be just the load for buffalo extermination. Too bad there arent any wandering the tree farms of oregon. In any case it shot as well as the 25 gr load, without a noticable increase in recoil or noise. I think ill try a showdown between these two loads next week. No unburned powder for either load.

The experience here with the 405 gr at lower velocity vs the 300 at higher velocities has got me wondering about a threshold of handgun velocity above which the muzzle blast and noise outweigh the actual physical recoil. It seems to be around 1400 as best i can tell, since my 357 mag loads which fall under that spec seem gentle, while the ones above that seem much more punishing.

I guess i must be more of the type that likes the boom of thunder more than the crack of lightning. In wrestling i was more likely to push you around and toss you in a head-and-arm than to dance circles and score a takedown with a single leg. In football i loved it when the offense would run an Iso right at me...id get to smash the fullback AND the tailback. But a triple option sucked because you couldnt really lay into anyone, they could just pitch it. And yeh, the shotput is waaay more my style than javelin.

I guess this whole thing, for me, is finding my comfort zone, then enjoying it. So far my comfort zone is the lee 405 fn and 2400...at stout levels. I could shoot either the 25 gr or the 26.5 gr load all day long. Just need more brass and money for lead!

[DrCaveman]

Im considering bumping up the charge for the 405 fn load a bit, maybe gunning for just under 1400 fps if the pressure is right.

Anyone have data for a 28.0 gr load of 2400 in a 460 magnum, OAL 2.24" and boolit length of 1.02"?

Thanks a bunch.

[donald150]

Im considering bumping up the charge for the 405 fn load a bit, maybe gunning for just under 1400 fps if the pressure is right.

Anyone have data for a 28.0 gr load of 2400 in a 460 magnum, OAL 2.24" and boolit length of 1.02"?

Thanks a bunch.


Do you have any Idea what the hardness is on the lead you are using?

I know some people don't put much stock in testing the hardness but I'm just getting started so I bought a tester.
The hardest lead I currently have is about a 15BHN. I might add that my 405gr mold is a GC mold.

I think I said this before but I received a bunch of 405 gr bullets with the mold and if I remember right, they tested over 20BHN.

Im just wondering what you are using.

I need to see if I even have 2400 powder. Im looking for a load for this round but will most likely have to use whatever powder I have on hand because the shelves are empty around here.

[Markbo]

I am also curious if you can find a really accurate load with that 405gr closer to 1000fps. It would be relatively mild shooting and should still penetrate tremendously. I haven't yet been able to hunt buffalo so my targets are deer and pigs.

[exile]

Very interesting thread. I have a friend who has a 5" .460 that he loves, he has sent it back to S & W twice to have it rebuilt. In my opinion that revolver has the best balance of any I have handled. They keep telling him "You're not supposed to shoot it that much" but I guess he doesn't care.

exile

[DrCaveman]

Do you have any Idea what the hardness is on the lead you are using?

I know some people don't put much stock in testing the hardness but I'm just getting started so I bought a tester.
The hardest lead I currently have is about a 15BHN. I might add that my 405gr mold is a GC mold.

I think I said this before but I received a bunch of 405 gr bullets with the mold and if I remember right, they tested over 20BHN.

Im just wondering what you are using.

I need to see if I even have 2400 powder. Im looking for a load for this round but will most likely have to use whatever powder I have on hand because the shelves are empty around here.

Ive been using my standard alloy for these boolits, nothing special or waterdropped. It started life as clip on wheel weights, i added some 50/50 solder, some range scrap, and magnum shot. It's been caught and remelted MANY times now, so im not sure of the makeup. My last hardness testing showed about 14 bhn, if i recall correctly.

Yeah i bought a lee hardness tester after reading Modern Reloading, and while it was insightful, my results didnt exactly 'agree' with those put forth by mr Lee. So ive relaxed about hardness, and only worry about it if i see problems like barrel leading or erratic accuracy.

Speaking of which, i have been failing to report about lead deposits in my 460 barrel. ZERO, with all loads reported in this thread. This is the first gun ive shot with cast that i can say that about. Not even a hint of silver on the patch, and after a quick soak with solvent, the bore takes 1-2 passes to go back to near-factory clean.

Guess the fit is good!

[DrCaveman]

I am also curious if you can find a really accurate load with that 405gr closer to 1000fps. It would be relatively mild shooting and should still penetrate tremendously. I haven't yet been able to hunt buffalo so my targets are deer and pigs.

Well my first attempts with 2400 powder gave me the velocity you're looking for. I didnt test enough to say whether it is really accurate, but it was a pretty pleasant load. There was lots of room in the case (like, room for 7-10 more grains) so maybe a slower powder with better load density would be better for ultimate accuracy. But i am still concerned about complete ignition, what with the short barrel and slow powders.

Maybe something like a 4227 or even reloder 7 would be the ticket. Im thinking a stick powder is worth trying, on the faster side of stick powders. I guess that means rx7. Maybe 4198? Is that a stick powder?

[DrCaveman]

Very interesting thread. I have a friend who has a 5" .460 that he loves, he has sent it back to S & W twice to have it rebuilt. In my opinion that revolver has the best balance of any I have handled. They keep telling him "You're not supposed to shoot it that much" but I guess he doesn't care.

exile

Yeah, that was the first thing i noticed about this beast: balance. Sure, it weighs a bunch, but to me it really sits in the hand well, and holds steady well, points well, and recoil has been moderate as far as actual push on my hand. Muzzle blast and flash have been tremendous with a few loads ive shot, but still not punishing on my hand.

Its kinda like my 4" model 19, just a lot bigger. And boy does my 460 make the model 19 seem like a toy. A very deadly, mobile, shootable toy. Im really having a good time switching back and forth between the 460 with hot-rod 405 gr loads and my model 19 with 158 gr 38 spl +p loads. Emptying a cylinder double-action in the model 19 has never seemed so easy or fast, and my accuracy has not suffered

Hey, what loads is your friend shooting that is requiring a rebuild of the gun? I think i should minimize those!

I do plan on shooting it a lot. How else to get good?

[DrCaveman]

Tried some more loads

The winner was 13.9 gr sr4756 behind the lee 405 fn sized to .4525"

Average velocity 943 fps. Accuracy great. Shootability AWESOME

Loser was 34 gr Lil Gun behind 405 gr. Clocked 1462 fps average but extraction was sticky, recoil was huge, and accuracy was unmanagable for me.

Mid performance was the lee 300 gr GC in front of 42 gr lil gun. Popped like a rifle, clocked 1542 fps. Not as fast as i expected. Accuracy was great for one cylinder then it fell off. I didnt see any leading to explain it. Concussion was big

All in all im still not sold on these powders slower than 2400 for my 460 with heavies. I thnk the 4756 load is pretty nice and consumes less powder so i will try to milk that till some 2400 is back on the shelf

[Whiterabbit]

405 moving 943? Along with good accuracy and great shootability, you forgot hits like a freight train!

[Markbo]

Uhhhh... what exactly couldn't you hunt with that load Caveman? Other than not being as flat shooting as the 300 @ 1500fps, that sounds like one heckuva good load to me! Even in the too large X frame format, I consider a handgun an absolute max 100yd gun. If I need to shoot further than that, I have lots of rifles. Just guessing at BC of .200 & a 75 yard zero, it drops 5+" at 100yds and 24" at 150 yds. That's too much for me to be able to shoot well that far, but inside 100 (with optics for me) I think I'd do alright with that load! :D

[Whiterabbit]

I don't think dr. caveman questioned the efficacy of that load for killing at all. I agree with you too!

[DrCaveman]

Markbo

I'm with you on the max range for handguns. And the small bit of shooting I've tried beyond 50 yds was pretty pathetic anyway, probably due to my skill level and experience

So that all does boil back to settling on a load that I can shoot well. And this sr 4756 load fits that bill, and it seems to be pretty efficient burning...no muzzle flash (that I noticed) and no I burned flakes in barrel. I think I will try bumping the charge up and down about a grain to see if there is any improvement

Also should prob shoot a few without ear muffs to see just how bad it is. My thinking is that a bear encounter or something creeping into camp in the middle of night will not allow time for muffs

I wonder about the killing power of this load vs the lee 300 gr around 1100-1200 fps. The me play on the 300 is a bit more aggressive, and I am not sure if the extra weight of the 405 is really needed. Of course the 405 fits the gun dimensions better...
Then there is the old lead-consumption issue...

[Whiterabbit]

If I were wondering about the killing power of:

300gr lee (incredible meplat) @ 1200 fps and
405gr fn (33% more weight) @ 950 fps

My first question would be, in the USA, what could the 405 kill that the 300 COULDNT kill. Or vice versa.
The followup would be what is outside the USA that... (same question)!

Nothing in my state that isnt GTG :)

[Markbo]

Another question... which one can I shoot more accurately? Looks like I have to buy a few cast bullets to see which mold I want to get. :grin:

[DrCaveman]

Markbo

I'm out a grand total of $84 for four molds that work in: 460 mag, 45 colt, and 45-70

Well that's not quite accurate since my lee 255 gr rnfp and 300 gr GC are too small for the 45-70, while the 500 gr spitzer is too long for the 460 mag (unless I load it in 45 colt cases)

If you're buying by the box, you don't get that many of these big heavy boolits for $84 in my experience

I'd just get the lee 300 GC and the 405 fp to start. You can always pick a different shape when you upgrade to a custom mold

So far, the lee 405 is tops in my 460 and my 45-70 too

[Whiterabbit]

my lee 255 gr rnfp and 300 gr GC are too small for the 45-70, while the 500 gr spitzer is too long for the 460 mag (unless I load it in 45 colt cases)


nope, they all work!

The 500 will fit in a 460 case if it fits in a colt case. Just have LOTS of case tension! :)

And the 255 in a 45/70? no problem. Just cast slightly soft, put the bullet nose down on concrete, then smash with a hammer. turn back right side up and put in your 458 sizer. itll work just fine. No, really. :)

(half joking on the 255 thing.)

[DrCaveman]

Whiterabbit i like your style. Always finding a way to make things work. I am also an engineer and appreciate your approach. So many here are naysayers that it is refreshing to see an open minded dialogue

Saw your contribution to the 38 +p++ thread and i will say here in this thread that i agree fully. In the situation of owning a 460 mag but no 45 colt guns, i feel no danger in loading 45 colt brass up to veeery high levels, particularly if the loaded cartridge is too long for 45 colt guns. Ie loading the 500 gr spitzer in front of 8 gr unique. In the cards for this weekend

[mk454]

the 460 is rapidly becoming one of my favorite rounds. i feel there has been some really unjust criticism of the round. it is not particularly inefficient if ya use the right bullets and powders. when i shoot mine and make up my loads, 1) i use midrange hs6 and longshot powder for my cast bullets. i get great accuracy and am able to not push the bullets too hard. 2) there's actually several good bullets that will handle the pressure it makes. all the hornady xtp mags, all the barnes xbp's and this imho is where this caliber really comes in to it's own! speer deep curl, swift a frames, and barnes busters. 3) the 5" barreled 460 just needs the right amount of a faster burning powder to show an advantage over the 454 in the velocity segment and the 454 is my fav round, but when using long barnes bullets is where the case capacity advantage really comes into it's own on the 460. used with success in africa this year along with my 454.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Dr Caveman,

I really appreciate the sentiment. I needed the boost. let's not forget the Latin proverb "A Wise Man Learns by the Mistakes of Others, a Fool by His Own"...... Still, this young fool here appreciates your kind words!

I actually like this forum as a source of NON nay-sayer do-ers. You should see the nay saying that goes on on Calguns, my other gun forum. May God help you over there if the COAL isn't listed in your load data! Cast Booliteers are just a better breed of man.

[Whiterabbit]

Actually, thinking about it a bit, I could easily put my 460 loads in a 454 case, maybe even a colt case. MOST of my loads use .8" of case tension on the bullet. That means there's only 1" of powder column. I'm pretty sure both colt and casull cases are longer than 1.0 inches.

I'll never try it because I like LRM primers and want to standardize to that, but I thin kit would work, for those of us who standardize to small primers.

[DrCaveman]

the 460 is rapidly becoming one of my favorite rounds. i feel there has been some really unjust criticism of the round. it is not particularly inefficient if ya use the right bullets and powders. when i shoot mine and make up my loads, 1) i use midrange hs6 and longshot powder for my cast bullets. i get great accuracy and am able to not push the bullets too hard. 2) there's actually several good bullets that will handle the pressure it makes. all the hornady xtp mags, all the barnes xbp's and this imho is where this caliber really comes in to it's own! speer deep curl, swift a frames, and barnes busters. 3) the 5" barreled 460 just needs the right amount of a faster burning powder to show an advantage over the 454 in the velocity segment and the 454 is my fav round, but when using long barnes bullets is where the case capacity advantage really comes into it's own on the 460. used with success in africa this year along with my 454.

Yeah, i think the load data provided by mfgrs is part of the problem with the round. Other than a few Unique and Titegroup loads, about all i see is full-throttle or granny-low. Whats wrong with some mid-level loads? 357 mag and 44 mag users enjoy plenty of mid level loads, to help with gun longevity and ease of shooting. I think it's time that we 460 users share more load data with the world...maybe posting on handloads.com?

I like your powder choices, they jibe well with my settling on sr 4756. Im betting that Unique-True Blue and everything around that burn rate would be decent choices.

I think think it is a balancing act here in that we have a fairly short barrel and a cartridge capable of handling very high pressures, with a barrel gap no less. So we can get away with relatively heavy charges of these medium-fast powders without going over allowable pressure while keeping the velocity reasonable to help mitigate boolit skidding and excessive muzzle blast/noise. I think maybe the maximum speed provided by a given powder for which there is 'no' muzzle flash (hence very little excess gas from extra powder) is the ticket

[DrCaveman]

Hi Dr Caveman,

I really appreciate the sentiment. I needed the boost. let's not forget the Latin proverb "A Wise Man Learns by the Mistakes of Others, a Fool by His Own"...... Still, this young fool here appreciates your kind words!

I actually like this forum as a source of NON nay-sayer do-ers. You should see the nay saying that goes on on Calguns, my other gun forum. May God help you over there if the COAL isn't listed in your load data! Cast Booliteers are just a better breed of man.

Well i guess i am spoiled, as this is the only forum of ANY type that i participate in. I have always thought it was a special site, despite my complaint about excessive caution and even ridicule being thrown at people trying to push the envelope. Yeah, this is still probably the best web site there is

[DrCaveman]

Actually, thinking about it a bit, I could easily put my 460 loads in a 454 case, maybe even a colt case. MOST of my loads use .8" of case tension on the bullet. That means there's only 1" of powder column. I'm pretty sure both colt and casull cases are longer than 1.0 inches.

I'll never try it because I like LRM primers and want to standardize to that, but I thin kit would work, for those of us who standardize to small primers.

I considered getting a setup for loading 454 for my 460v but was turned off by brass price and die availability. Then i also got concerned about the stories of erratic ignition of rounds due to the small primer being used. I feel the large rifle primers are pretty dang reliable, ive never yet had one fail to fire, by any mfgr. To be fair, the volume of rounds shot using that primer prior to my buying the 460 was not that high...maybe 150/ year. Not to mention that the guns using the LR primers generally had pretty strong springs.

And what about 45 colt shooters? Where is the admonishment for people loading that cartridge to 'ruger only' levels and then simply putting them in a box in their ammo crate, just waiting for their great-grandchild to come along in 50 years with an old Colt single action, load it up, and boom. Just kidding that is ridiculous

[mk454]

What erratic ignition are you speaking of?

[DrCaveman]

What erratic ignition are you speaking of?

well, maybe those stories all involved using some combination of: h110/w296 powder underloaded, small pistol magnum primers, small rifle (non magnum) primers, and early load development of said Casull cartridge which resulted in tri-plex loads in order to get even 2400 powder ignited to the author's satisfaction

Surely us modern folks have figured out ways to make the ignition reliable. Still i dont like the fact that one has to abide soooooo strictly to exact components listed in a recipe for the cartridge to even _work_. Sure, ill accept that max accuracy may be found by following load book recipes to the T, but i have found plenty of minor adjustments that work just fine.

Maybe the 454 casull round has suffered the same undue criticism as the 460, and people should look to explore loads that are 15-25% less velocity which would be easy shooting, easy on the ears, easy on the gun, and still in excess of hot 45 colt loads. And would be much more conservative/efficient of powder use

[mk454]

I have heard a few of those but only after reloading for te 454 for 15 years and i chalked it up to nonsense as ive never had a problem. If ya talk to the guys at freedom arms ya just use the magnum powders with sr magnum primers and ive just never had a problem whether it be -20 degrees in montana or 110 in texas. I dont worry about it at all i find the 454 no more finicky to reload for than anything else. Personally i wouldnt worry about it.

[Whiterabbit]

I never had problems. I just stopped doing it and sold all my 454 stuff because I have NO other guns that use small rifle primers, so it was a "why bother" situation.

[Markbo]

I just can't wait for October to get here so it isn't too hot to get into the garage and load some rounds!

[DrCaveman]

I mixed things up a little more this morning, trying to squeeze max efficiency out of powders that i have enough of to continue experimenting (unique & 2400, maybe sr 4756, depending how much longer the powder shortage holds out)

I tried 12.5 gr unique behind three different boolits, all using 460 mag cases

First was the 405 gr FP lee that this thread is all about. It clocked an average of 895 fps. I ran a load a while back using 10.6 gr unique, and it clocked at 847 fps average. Im not impressed with the velocity return for the extra powder added.

The load was pretty decent though, easy shooting, and got in the 4" circle at 25 yards...most shots. Cases fell out of cylnder

Second up was the lee 300 GC, designed for 45lc/454casull, that ive been shooting. Load density was surely lower than with the 405, as it seats shallower into the case. I didnt get more than 2 out of every 5 on paper (8" circle) at 15 yds. Didnt bother to chrono this, just shot them up double action for some trigger control practice. Cases came out quite sooty, but easily

Third was the lee 42-255 rnfp, which i bought for the 45 acp initially. Surprisingly, this was the harshest recoiling of the group. I am pretty convinced that my ears/brain are more sensitive than my wrists/forearms because these 'fast' loads are much more unpleasant to me than the slow ones. Average velocity was 1038 fps. This load shot consistently low, and once i compensated with holdover (at 15 yds) i was able to group a few around the bullseye.

Case extraction was sticky! I mean, pretty darn sticky! No hammer needed, but i had to use a different part of my hand to push since the normal spot was getting raw!


I dont think i will bother with this load in 460 cases anymore, since a similar load in 45 colt case uses less powder and seems to work better.

All in all, the 405 gr load is ONCE AGAIN the winner. And i think my load using sr 4756 getting me 943 fps is also the winner. Easier shooting than the unique load and more consistent

I would greatly appreciate anyone willing to submit some more of their own loads...i think there is too little info out there about this cartidge with heavies and here is a good opportunity to get the data compiled

[Whiterabbit]

so, you should know a couple things. first, my 10" BFR consistently chromos faster than the exact same (exact same) load in a 12" smith. Second, I didn't buy a 460 to shoot 454 loads or weaker, though that doesn't mean I feel compelled to load ANYTHING anywhere near 65ksi. Finally, I don't know if these loads will fit a S&W or not. Some I know wont. Most should though. Finally, most of these use a bullet too long, they will keyhole in a 20" twist gun. But since they aren't really 65ksi loads you might be able to ratchet them up to make them stable.

405 grain bullet, 27 grains H4198, 1150 fps

Lee 300 grain bullet, lots of H110, 1975-2000 fps

500 grain LEE RNFPGC, IMR4198:
26 grains, 1190 fps
27 grains, 1210 fps
28 grains, 1230 fps

425-460 ranch dog bullet, 30 grains IMR4198 (my favorite load), average 1360 fps

500 grain barnes bullet (for 458 lott, lathe turned to .451),IMR4198 (I think well under 20 grains), 870 fps

550 grain Hoch nose pour, 26 grains H110, 1350 fps

590 grain old west molds bullet, 26-28 grains IMR4198 (I forget exactly where), 1170 fps

740 grain NEI mold (fat bastard), 20 grains IMR4198, 930 fps (have gone up to 22 grains, no chrono data)

FYI most of these are minute of elephant, the RD is an exception. They'll all bowl over whatever I shoot though. Usually they will knock over the entire target stand, to be honest. When I'm not trying to shoot target at 100y (and failing), I shoot a roughly 8" square plate at 50 yards.

-----------

My favorite bullets are the 425 RD and the LEE 500 RNFPGC. I did buy the RCBS BPCR 500 grain pointy tip PB bullet to try, I have high hopes it'll be a winner minus a GC too.

I think the ranch dog will work in the S&W if pushed to the max. But I've only started to work on that. I needed to rework my alloy cause of that darn brake, it spits my lazylead and smokes with my lazylube. Fixed both but need to retest and start load development completely over. If they all keyhole, your 405 grain load will beat my best bullet so far in the X-frame, the LEE 300.

[donald150]

I finally had the time to try some of the Data from this thread to load up my 405gr rounds.

I wish I could be more helpful with my results but I don't have a Chrono yet and my 2 3/4" barrel 460 is not a gun I would use to measure accuracy.

First, my 405gr is different from the 405gr you have been talking about. Mine Is the RCBS 45-405-FN mold.

It is a GC bullet and the middle bullet in this picture. (the smashed bullet in the picture is a 535gr after being recovered from a bowling pin)

94586


I loaded 25 rounds just to check function and look for pressure signs.
I loaded 5 with 21gr of 2400
I loaded 5 with 22gr of 2400
I loaded 5 with 23gr of 2400
I loaded 5 with 24gr of 2400
I loaded 5 with 25gr of 2400
(note, my powder is at least 20 years old)
I crimped them at the crimp groove.

I didn't notice any pressure signs with any of these rounds. None of them required force to eject out of the cylinder. I would actually say there was almost no friction at all.

The 21gr charge was actually not too bad to shoot. I've had 44mag rounds that kicked more.
On the other hand, the rounds from 23gr to 25gr had considerable more recoil and they were what I would expect from a 460.

I was getting decent 2-3" groups at 25' and putting all rounds on a sheet of paper at 25 yards with a 2 3/4" barrel.

I really don't have much more to add right now until I get a chrono and spend some time with these rounds.



Thank you guys for giving me a starting point to make use of this mold I have.

[TiteWadShooter]

Hi guys! This is my first ever post. DrCaveman and all the rest of you fellas, It is great reading about your info! I have a 460 XVR s&w 8-3/8, and it does pretty good I think w/ 31gr. of imr-4227 with a 360 gr keith style boolit from "mountain molds". The recoil is slightly less than, if it were to be loaded with H-110. I don't own a chronograph, but stats say around 1600 fps. I would like to bring that down to around 1200-1400 fps. My land allows me to shoot a max of 150 yds, but I'm getting around 5" groups @100 yrds with supported iron sights with that recipe. I think Drcaveman said something about sharing some new load info on this great gun. My local supplier suggested that I try H322 ((a slower burning rifle powder) this is cross referencing from "John ross's 500 magnum loads) loaded at 100% volume for a more lower velocity, around 1200-1400 fps, but more fps than Trail Boss. Any opinions or suggestions? Thanks!

[Whiterabbit]

I like 4198 if you want to get into the 1100-1400. 4759 does it too.

[DrCaveman]

Welcome, Titewadshooter!

Good to have another 460 mag enthusiast around. This cartridge just doesnt seem to generate the discussion that 44 mag or even 454 casull does, and there is nobody with 50 years experience wth it. So it seems that we are the testers, and maybe the cutting edge. Hopefully we will be the voices of wisdom in years to come, at least regarding the 460 magnum.

Donald150s reawakening of this thread got me back into trying 2400 with the 460V that i shoot. I also just acquired a lee double disk kit so i can finally start giving myself some repeatable charge options for the slower burning powders. Previously i limited myself to those charge weights which could be dropped by pulling the charge handle twice. Meaning, i could pick any disk size and DOUBLE it, but could not get charge weights in between. What can i say, i am still figuring out a few things.

Anyway i am finally going to shoot my intended charge of 26.5 gr of 2400 under the lee 405 this weekend. I expect about 1300 fps since the 25 gr load went 1215 average with a very tight spread. Hopefully i havent pushed past the accuracy point but we will see

As for your gun and intended load, i havent tried 4227 in my 460 yet. I think it is slower than my 5" barrel would prefer, but maybe the heavy boolit evens things out. On that note (WHITERABBIT) i have a deep seated 500 gr load ready to shoot using a 100% load density charge of IMR4227. So, again, we will see.

I still havent seen any 4198 to try. Got a can of aa1680 and was considering it. It seemed like h110 to me though, in grain size, charge weights, and smell, so i decided to save it for 7.62x39

Titewad, herco or blue dot might get you into that speed too. But for now, i reccomend 2400.

[TiteWadShooter]

I've shot maybe 100 rds w/ imr4227 so far, pretty good kick to it. I was wanting to try 2400, but none available. I kinda want to stick with slow burning powders for my barrel. 4198 and 4759 is also on my list of choices. Whiterabbit! Your already knockin out 4198. I'll buy a pound of h322 and see how that goes. Hope that 500 grainer isn't too hard on your wrist. And yes I agree, this gun has been around for less than ten years. Perhaps we should be the pioneers for this cartridge.

[Whiterabbit]

try not to go too slow. 4895 is WAY too slow. I suspect 44man would tell us 4198 is already too slow. Quickloads confirms these speeds are sub optimal, technically. So not all 45/70 powder or 223 powder works. is 322 faster than 335?

[DrCaveman]

Looks like 322 is a little slower than reloder 7, a little faster than 4895. Certainly slower than 4198.

If whiterabbit is calling 4198 his 'slow' powder in his long-barreled BFR, then thats probably as slow a one should go. Id expect a bit of unburned.

Since mine is a mere 5" barrel, i am reluctant to even go as slow as 4198. Then again, if i saw a pound for sale i would probably buy it and try it. Thats the beauty of loading for a bunch of calibers and boolit weights...usually one will work with any given powder that seemed to make sense to buy that day

[Markbo]

Caveman I have watched this thread and your 405gr tests. Have you tried any lighter bullets? 350-360gr range seems to me to be a sweet spot this cartridge might just like.

[Whiterabbit]

It's not what the cartridge likes, it's what the gun likes. S&W revolvers are effectively 1 in 20, and everyone else is 1 in 16. Big big difference.

[DrCaveman]

Markbo

I have been trying to decide on a boolit in the weight range you are suggesting, mostly for the reasons white rabbit mentions
I still haven't heard back from s&w about the actual twist rate of the 460v
Oddly enough, my 405 is still shooting better than my 300 gr, at comparable speeds and max range of about 30 yds

But I do have a goal of finding a mold for a massive meplat, boolit weight about 360-375 shot around 1100 fps. No has check, preferably

Hey all you s&w 460 shooters, have you checked your chamber mouth diameters? I have slugged my bore, but never gauged the cylinder. Seems as though I can't get a boolit larger than .451" through without a rod and mallet. Since the bore is .452" as its supposed to be...this can't be a good thing!

I'm surprised at the accuracy I've seen so far, based on this new insight

[TiteWadShooter]

Is your barrel leading? drcaveman! I never measured cylinder throats yet. Like you, I slugged my barrel and sized my boolit. My 360 gr is water dropped ww, w/ Imr 4227. Aside from the recoil, accuracy is great and after 50 rounds, a dry patch once thru the bore leaves a mirror shine. I'll check it someday just to check it, but probably won't change anything. If your barrel isn't leading, I wouldn't worry.

[TiteWadShooter]

Whiterabbit! lookin at your numbers on post #87, and numbers in my lyman book, looks pretty cool. thinking actually I'll try 4198 instead of 322.

[Whiterabbit]

Hey all you s&w 460 shooters, have you checked your chamber mouth diameters? I have slugged my bore, but never gauged the cylinder. Seems as though I can't get a boolit larger than .451" through without a rod and mallet. Since the bore is .452" as its supposed to be...this can't be a good thing!

I'm surprised at the accuracy I've seen so far, based on this new insight

BFR: every throat is identical, at .4525. @ .452 they slide right through. They get significantly slowed down after I polished my sizer dies up to between .452 and .453. And after lubing, they stick in the throat and need very gentle help with a dowel or pencil or something to go through. I suppose if I shake the cylinder hard enough they would go through.

[DrCaveman]

BFR: every throat is identical, at .4525. @ .452 they slide right through. They get significantly slowed down after I polished my sizer dies up to between .452 and .453. And after lubing, they stick in the throat and need very gentle help with a dowel or pencil or something to go through. I suppose if I shake the cylinder hard enough they would go through.

I already used up all my soft lead .458 round balls, and dont have any gauges, nor an inside measuring micrometer. But i figure that the gun and the boolit used tell the tale...if it takes 15-20 lb of pressure to fit my sized boolit through the chamber mouth, then things are out of whack and my boolits are probably being swaged down

I am reluctant to take the emory cloth to the chambers, but on the other hand i am quite curious of the difference i may see. I have (foolishly perhaps) sidestepped the chamber fit issue with my revolvers thus far since i have found what i considered good accuracy and very light or no leading. I think maybe ill start with my gp100 before i potentially wreck the much more expensive 460V.

It raining like crazy here, and the geese are flying. Only a few more weeks left to shoot them, so i may not get around to testing these loads til a bit more fowl is in my freezer.

[DrCaveman]

Rain stopped & no geese. Load testing time

The results of this outing were less encouraging than my last, using sr4756. My load of 26.5 gr alliant 2400 under the lee 405 plain base boolit was not as accurate as i had hoped. Further, i had noticable boolit pull issues due to lack of neck tension/crimp. I only loaded two in the cylinder at first, and after shooting the first round, the next had noticable pullout. It still swung into battery so i popped it off. Next go, i loaded three, and first two reacted as stated above. Third one did indeed pull out far enough to prevent battery, but luckily i was able to spin the cylinder and get it out.

The 500 grain boolit was an exercise in INSTABILITY. Keyhole at 15 yds. Odd since i shot this from 45 colt cases at a surely lower velocity, no instability that i saw. No point in continuing this experiment i think. I should add that neck tension was worthless, this was a single shot endeavor. Or maybe i go back to heavy crimps...

Shot the lee 300 gr with 10 gr reddot. No GC. Very nice load. May be my new target load for this gun.

On a bad note, i got substantial leading in the chambers and bore from my 45 colt load i shot. It was also lee 300 gr, sans GC, in front of 6.5 gr unique.

I am embarassed to state that my bore seems to be closer to .4508" than the .452" previously mentioned. And my chamber mouths are all very close to .4515-.4518". So it looks like i maybe should reexamine all my reloading steps for 460 magnum.

[DrCaveman]

Today i finally shot my new loads, including one new mold. After finally MEASURING my bore and cylinders, instead of pretending that i knew the dimensions, i have changed up my procedure a bit

First, all boolits were sized to .451" using a lee push through sizer. All boolits that i tested pushed though the cylinder with a little help from a wooden dowel. Id guess about 2-5 lb of pressure

Next, i lubed properly in the grooves using runfiverun's simple lube and the "dip" method. The .452" lee sizer cleaned em up nicely

Next, i ran all my brass through my 45 acp lee factory crimp die prior to resizing. I removed the crimping plug, of course, and just screwed the die down until it hit the shellholder. This step ensured easy chambering of the loaded rounds. I surely did NOT use the FCD for final crimp or post-sizng. I may be able to skip this step in the future since my brass is now formed using the .451" boolits but im not sure.

Next, case belling was reduced quite a bit. The 451" boolits slipped in easier than 452", so this was a no brainer. I also wanted to maintain as much neck tension as possible.

Finally, the crimp was also reduced, my thinking was to reduce any chance of case buckling or general deformation. Not sure if this was the right move, but it worked fine in 2 of my 3 loads

-------

The three loads each used the same powder charge: 25.7 grains of alliant 2400

Gun is a smith and wesson 460V, for any newcomers to the thread.

Boolits were: lee 457-340f, lee 457-405f, and lee C452-300rf.

Rain prevented me from chronographing the loads, but my predictions of velocity were 1300, 1250, and 1400, respectively. This is just based on previous loads that i did chrono, but now im not too sure since pressures were probably different with the smaller diameter

Each load showed definite accuracy potential, but i am back in the world of "gross load decisions", picking which powder and boolit to focus on, and i really just wanted to see how these felt and if they leaded the barrel.

I spent about 2 weeks cleaning the gun after my last "oops". Today, it took all of 5 minutes (including about 4 minutes of solvent soaking) to get the gun spotless. No lead at all, just minimal antimony wash and a little powder residue.

The only bad news was some boolit pull with the 405 gr load. Either i need more crimp, or i give up on this boolit. I think i may just stick with the 300 grain and 340 grain from here on out, due to the barrel twist. I fought it for a while, but at some point i must accept the reality of physics.

The 300 grain i think has the most potential, what with the gas check and huge meplat. Im gonna step up the charge of 2400 to around 28 gr, and maybe try a ladder test from 26-28. I really liked the way this 25.7 load felt and shot, so im kind of hoping that performance suffers at higher charge weight. 300 grain at 1400 is fine medicine and damn easy shooting in this gun.

---------

Anyway, i think im putting this thread to bed for good since the lighter boolits have a lot more going for them, and use less lead to boot. Thanks everyone who has contributed, and hopefully this thread will help someone curious about trying what i did using the 460V.

[Whiterabbit]

Someone with an X-frame needs to man up and have Tom at Accurate make a 200-220 grain gas checked bullet so you can try loading it with 50 grains of H110 and tell me how that worked out for you.

[DrCaveman]

Someone with an X-frame needs to man up and have Tom at Accurate make a 200-220 grain gas checked bullet so you can try loading it with 50 grains of H110 and tell me how that worked out for you.

Well, i would not look forward to shooting that load. Ill bet we could get it to shoot "accurately" off a ransom, but i know that i suck at maintaining consistency with that level of muzzle report and flash.

Id like to get a solid compensator (that is, a NON compensator) but cant seem to find one. It would probably help tame the bark. I dont mind the push, but the bark is downright unpleasant, it gives me a headache. Maybe too many concussions in high school and college.

Im hoping to find a winner between 270-340 grains. I think the cartridge and twist will balance out in that range. I definitely plan on ordering from Tom once i get a bit more testing done

[Markbo]

Darn... I was really hoping your would find the 405's sweet spot. Then again is there anything in North America you couldn't shoot with 340-350gr @ 1300fps? ;) Is there any way you can post a pic of the 3 bullets?

[Whiterabbit]

I'll bet the 405's can shoot if you just absolutely max out the load and use a really long barrel. I still have a bunch of 425's here for testing in an 8" x-frame using #9 and 4198, just been tough to get my buddy to the range to try them.

The real bummer is that the 300 LEE load that works real well in his gun with aa#9 just does not shoot in my gun. It's amazing what 1 in 20 twist vs 1 in 16 does for ability to shoot.